A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[greenleo]

3 minutes ago, lmitche said:

All of these NUCs can run powered with a lps1.2, even the i7 set in low power mode with every unused circuit, turbo and hyperthreading disabled in bios and one 4gb stick of ram.

Thank you Larry for the info.  Any SQ change from high power to low power mode?

[lmitche]

4 minutes ago, greenleo said:

Thank you Larry for the info.  Any SQ change from high power to low power mode?

Yes, low power sounds better as an endpoint but hard to say if it's the mode switch or power source that's the reason. I don't have a power supply above the lps1.2 current limits that is anywhere near it's quality.

 

That may change soon. Stay tuned.

[greenleo]

4 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Yes, low power sounds better as an endpoint but hard to say if it's the mode switch or power source that's the reason. I don't have a power supply above the lps1.2 current limits that is anywhere near it's quality.

 

That may change soon. Stay tuned.

I see the complications.  Very thorough.  I hope that some CAer near may lend you a SR4 for further checking.  If Roy may chime in, it would be great as he has all the gears and may verify/falsify your observation readily.

 

It seems that we're getting somewhere.  Very excited.

[austinpop]

3 hours ago, mourip said:

 

Thanks Larry. After about a dozen hours of tearing apart my system, reinstalling the OS on three PC's, posting many questions here, and mail bombing poor Pietro he came through with the solution. It was not a DNS issue but one of a proprietary unique identifier that Roon is supposed to create upon first install. Even though I did a fresh download for both Bridge installs and used separate USB drives they somehow had the same "unique" identifier. This is why Roon Core would get so confused. Here is Pietro's reply. I hope that someone else can benefit.

 

"RoonBridge generates and writes out a unique id into its data directory on first run and uses that to identify itself to RoonServer. Clear out /var/roon on the second device (or hunt down and delete the RAATServer/Settings/unique_id file) and it will generate itself a new one next time it starts up."

 

I deleted /var/roon/RAATServer/Settings/unique_id and rebooted. I had to log in as root.

 

Now both Bridges show up as expected. It is odd to me that Roon gave me no error regarding a duplicate identifier or that the install could even allow it. Sadly Roon Support never came up with this information when I posted there.

 

Much thanks to all of you who offered your suggestions. It is much appreciated.

 

Paul

 

Wow, that is indeed a new finding. Very interesting. Wondering how this happened.

 

Just wondering - did you perhaps boot up both bridge machines with the same USB stick? Perhaps that can cause it...

[austinpop]

1 hour ago, HeeBroG said:

 

I am currently running Daphile so here's a screenshot.

The RAM feature button is at the bottom right of the screen 4th from right.

Daphile is certainly a big step up from Audirvana on MacOs.

I have a SOtM sMS200UltraNeo which I am not using at the moment because the music sounds more transparent without it.

I don't know how but ripped 44.1kHz files are sounding better than playing CD on my BLU2.

Could it be a latency thing?

I am receiving my NUC soon so it will be interesting to see if it's better than MacMini running Daphile.

Hopefully the experience with AL running best on a NUC will translate to Daphile as well.

 

 

 

Any way you slice it, putting "da phile" (the file) in memory appears to be a win.  

[Chopin75]

1 hour ago, austinpop said:

 

Any way you slice it, putting "da phile" (the file) in memory appears to be a win.  

Hmm interesting, a bit like Euphony Audio. Boot from USB. Is it also linux OS?

[seeteeyou]

2 hours ago, HeeBroG said:

I don't know how but ripped 44.1kHz files are sounding better than playing CD on my BLU2.

Could it be a latency thing?

 

When compared to the most recent version of VRDS-NEO or even the latest VRDS-ATLAS mechanism from Esoteric, Philips CD Pro 2 mechanism might be holding BLU2 back since the CD Pro Family should be a bit long in the tooth

 

http://www.esoteric.jp/technology/vrdsneo/indexe.html

https://www.encosystems.net/about/products-history/

 

In addition, it's hard to tell how much did RF noise degrade the performance of BLU2 without the help of ferrites on BNC cables. I guess it might be a good idea to sell BLU2 and then get Hugo M Scaler with a nice PSU.

 

---

 

2 hours ago, greenleo said:

Also, the theory of the quicker CPU implies shorter latency still works.  It would be interesting to find the sweet point as well.

 

That seemed to be consistent with stuff like servers with powerful Xeon processors, more is more or better power = better latency

 

https://intelligenttradingtechnology.com/blog/analysis-inside-supermicros-hyper-speed-hft-server

Quote

• The company says they work by "maximising processing power and precisely tuning hardware and firmware to attain up to 30% lower latency."

 

• As an example, Supermicro tested network performance processing messages with the UDP and TCP protocols, and determined that over clocking reduced latency by 31%. Moreover, jitter was reduced by 73%.

 

It's hard to tell where the sweet spot is without actually comparing two different beasts directly. For instance, Hades Canyon with i7-8809G doesn't have SoC and therefore the chipset ain't integrated. However, the bus speed is 8 GT/s DMI so basically that number alone would be somewhat closer to 8 GT/s DMI3 of "monsters" like i9-9900K or even i9-9980XE

 

https://ark.intel.com/products/130409/Intel-Core-i7-8809G-Processor-with-Radeon-RX-Vega-M-GH-graphics-8M-Cache-up-to-4-20-GHz-

 

OTOH, Bean Canyon with i7-8559U does have SoC with integrated chipset so that could be an advantage. Clock speed could go all the way up to 4.50 GHz while i7-8809G is only good for 4.20 GHz. However, bus speed is "only" 4 GT/s OPI and we dunno what that would actually mean in terms of latency

 

https://ark.intel.com/products/137979/Intel-Core-i7-8559U-Processor-8M-Cache-up-to-4-50-GHz-

 

Finally it would be also interesting to find out whether single-threaded or multi-threaded processors are resulting in better latency. Roy tested Roon Bridge on Dawson Canyon and quad core with multi-threading seemed to be superior to single core with single-threading.

[rettib2001]

3 hours ago, greenleo said:

I see the complications.  Very thorough.  I hope that some CAer near may lend you a SR4 for further checking.  If Roy may chime in, it would be great as he has all the gears and may verify/falsify your observation readily.

 

It seems that we're getting somewhere.  Very excited.

 

I'm using a nuc7i5bnh as both server and endpoint and within a couple of weeks I'll have an SR4 which im hoping will be able to power the i7nuc although I upsample to dsd512 within Roon which might push the consumption above what the SR4 can provide. 

 

I'll report back here. 

 

I'm also on the verge of buying a seperete celeron/pentium nuc as an end point, which the SR4 should power easily however... Am I going to get much better sound quality in a two nuc setup if the server is already being powered by a good power supply....

[Dev]

1 hour ago, Chopin75 said:

Is it also linux OS?

 

Absolutely.

[seeteeyou]

On 11/12/2018 at 9:16 AM, romaz said:

It turns out the HDMI outputs in these NUCs can output digital audio (you would have to turn on this feature in the BIOS) and using this Kanex HDMI to Toslink/SPDIF device, it works very well (up to 24/192 PCM).  In fact, using an optical HDMI cable and powering this Kanex unit with my LPS-1 (set to 5V), SQ is quite good going out to either SPDIF coax or Toslink.  Having said that, USB still sounds better resolved and more finessed but who knows what might happen if the clocks on this cheap unit were replaced.  

 

FYI - it wasn't exactly easy to find an audio extractor without analog outputs and that's why I only managed to locate one brand from China

 

https://detail.tmall.com/item.htm?id=45479199887

https://detail.tmall.com/item.htm?id=527952987667

http://ask-corps.com/page94.html?product_id=258&product_category=42

https://ask-hdmi.manufacturer.globalsources.com/si/6008834845565/pdtl/HDMI-converter/1162701574/2017-hdmi-audio-extractor-digital-to-analog.htm

 

Not sure about what kinda HDMI cable was tested by Roy, though here's an interesting one that's similar to Lush^2 USB

 

https://stordiau.com/collections/cables-and-more-snakes-oil/products/hdmi-2-i2s-cable

 

Even Ethernet and 75Ω BNC cables are available now, therefore we could order the latter one for clock cables

 

https://stordiau.com/collections/cables-and-more-snakes-oil/Oils

[HeeBroG]

1 hour ago, seeteeyou said:

 

When compared to the most recent version of VRDS-NEO or even the latest VRDS-ATLAS mechanism from Esoteric, Philips CD Pro 2 mechanism might be holding BLU2 back since the CD Pro Family should be a bit long in the tooth

 

http://www.esoteric.jp/technology/vrdsneo/indexe.html

https://www.encosystems.net/about/products-history/

 

In addition, it's hard to tell how much did RF noise degrade the performance of BLU2 without the help of ferrites on BNC cables. I guess it might be a good idea to sell BLU2 and then get Hugo M Scaler with a nice PSU.

 

Your point about the transport mechanism being inferior may well be valid but my server connects via USB to Blu2 and onto DAVE via BNC cables completely covered with the recommended clamp on ferrites so the RF issue should be common to both sources.

[afrancois]

7 hours ago, mourip said:

 

Thanks Larry. After about a dozen hours of tearing apart my system, reinstalling the OS on three PC's, posting many questions here, and mail bombing poor Pietro he came through with the solution. It was not a DNS issue but one of a proprietary unique identifier that Roon is supposed to create upon first install. Even though I did a fresh download for both Bridge installs and used separate USB drives they somehow had the same "unique" identifier. This is why Roon Core would get so confused. Here is Pietro's reply. I hope that someone else can benefit.

 

"RoonBridge generates and writes out a unique id into its data directory on first run and uses that to identify itself to RoonServer. Clear out /var/roon on the second device (or hunt down and delete the RAATServer/Settings/unique_id file) and it will generate itself a new one next time it starts up."

 

I deleted /var/roon/RAATServer/Settings/unique_id and rebooted. I had to log in as root.

 

Now both Bridges show up as expected. It is odd to me that Roon gave me no error regarding a duplicate identifier or that the install could even allow it. Sadly Roon Support never came up with this information when I posted there.

 

Much thanks to all of you who offered your suggestions. It is much appreciated.

 

Paul

Interesting to know.

[matthias]

5 hours ago, HeeBroG said:

Daphile is certainly a big step up from Audirvana on MacOs.

I don't know how but ripped 44.1kHz files are sounding better than playing CD on my BLU2.

 

Thanks for reporting.

Can you elaborate a little bit further regarding Audirvana vs. Daphile?

Did you rip CD with the Daphile ripper?

Thanks again.

 

Matt

 

[HeeBroG]

Audirvana runs on MacOs and even on "extreme mode" there are so many processes running in the background when you check with "Activity Monitor".

I know you can probably turn a lot of these off but I am not computer savvy enough to do it.

Daphile (and Audiolinux) I think run much leaner and that may account for the sound quality improvement I hear.

Much more transparent and full bodied.

The sound is simply more "juicy"!!

"The Great Gate at Kiev"; Pictures at the Exhibition Eiji Oue on Reference Recordings; the horn finale is simply stunning.

I ripped with dBpoweramp.

 

[greenleo]

2 hours ago, rettib2001 said:

 

I'm using a nuc7i5bnh as both server and endpoint and within a couple of weeks I'll have an SR4 which im hoping will be able to power the i7nuc although I upsample to dsd512 within Roon which might push the consumption above what the SR4 can provide. 

 

I'll report back here. 

 

I'm also on the verge of buying a seperete celeron/pentium nuc as an end point, which the SR4 should power easily however... Am I going to get much better sound quality in a two nuc setup if the server is already being powered by a good power supply....

Nice, Rettib.  I look forward to your reports.

 

Up to my knowledge, SQ wise, the weight of the endpoint is bigger than that of the server in dual PC setting.  (I think it's Roy who claim this first).

 

Given that you're going to have a dual PC system, feel free to try the placement of the SR4 and follow your ears.  As a matter of fact, I recall Roy mentioned that the server still plays a role in this setup, and I stand corrected.  Hence, I expect both server and end point are with great LPS would further improve the SQ.

 

Last word, SR4 needs good power cable to unleash its full potential.  Hence, it could cost a small fortune to use dual SR4 to power the dual PC system, however, still much cheaper than using a single SR7 in its top form.

 

 

[matthias]

1 hour ago, HeeBroG said:

Daphile (and Audiolinux) I think run much leaner and that may account for the sound quality improvement I hear.

 

There are reports from another forum that Volumio seems to be even better than Daphile, maybe worth a try.

 

Matt

[HeeBroG]

Thanks for the tip.

[rettib2001]

1 hour ago, greenleo said:

Nice, Rettib.  I look forward to your reports.

 

Up to my knowledge, SQ wise, the weight of the endpoint is bigger than that of the server in dual PC setting.  (I think it's Roy who claim this first).

 

Given that you're going to have a dual PC system, feel free to try the placement of the SR4 and follow your ears.  As a matter of fact, I recall Roy mentioned that the server still plays a role in this setup, and I stand corrected.  Hence, I expect both server and end point are with great LPS would further improve the SQ.

 

Last word, SR4 needs good power cable to unleash its full potential.  Hence, it could cost a small fortune to use dual SR4 to power the dual PC system, however, still much cheaper than using a single SR7 in its top form.

 

 

 

I suppose my real question is whether or not a celeron/pentium nuc as an endpoint powered by an SR4 with a seperete i7 nuc as a server (powered by an El cheapo power supply) both running headless Al in ram (extreme mode) is any better than simply using an i7 nuc powered by the SR4 (again headless Al ram + extreme mode). 

 

Between the two would be a lpsu, ground shunted ethernet switch. 

 

[lmitche]

2 minutes ago, rettib2001 said:

 

I suppose my real question is whether or not a celeron/pentium nuc as an endpoint powered by an SR4 with a seperete i7 nuc as a server (powered by an El cheapo power supply) both running headless Al in ram (extreme mode) is any better than simply using an i7 nuc powered by the SR4 (again headless Al ram + extreme mode). 

 

Between the two would be a lpsu, ground shunted ethernet switch. 

 

To answer your question we would need to know where the music is stored in the second scenario.

[rettib2001]

2 minutes ago, lmitche said:

To answer your question we would need to know where the music is stored in the second scenario.

No local storage, I exclusively use tidal hi-fi. 

[matthias]

@lmitche

Hi Larry,

is there consensus about the best NUC solution for streaming from Qobuz and using wifi only (no NAS, no Roon, no wired ethernet)?

Thanks

 

Matt

[lmitche]

25 minutes ago, rettib2001 said:

No local storage, I exclusively use tidal hi-fi. 

That's is a good question. Without listening I can't know for sure. I'll add this scenario to the listening test queue. I have roon here and can easily test it in a one and two box setup.

 

While I am at it, is there a preferred tidal app for Linux if any? If so that test may make sense as well.

[lmitche]

9 minutes ago, matthias said:

@lmitche

Hi Larry,

is there consensus about the best NUC solution for streaming from Qobuz and using wifi only (no NAS, no Roon, no wired ethernet).

Thanks

 

Matt

Hi Matt,

 

We don't have qobuz here in the US yet. Nevertheless I would expect the answer to be similar to the tidal SQ testing suggested above.

[HeeBroG]

@Imitche

 

Do you know of a way to use DRC/Parametric Eq with AudioLinux outside of ROON/HQplayer

[lmitche]

2 minutes ago, HeeBroG said:

@Imitche

 

Do you know of a way to use DRC/Parametric Eq with AudioLinux outside of ROON/HQplayer

I don't, but I am the wrong guy to ask. My only experience is with the Roon and Hqplayer solutions.

 

@hifi25nl may know more.