A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[sunny_time_99]

Hi,

did anyone tried daphile in a client/server setup and compare it to audiolinux? for the last nearly 4 years i am using daphile an the futro 900 thinclient with realy good results. i use it in an Server/Client Setup. its only a 5 Minute thing to prepare 2 usb sticks or sd-cards to make it run. anyone here who tried that too? you can buy it for 20-30 euro on eBay - and even when labled Fujitsu its still made in Germany! Ist perfect for the daphile 64-bit rt kernel. 4GB ram is highly recommended. Throw the 20v smps and use a good and clean min. 2A rated LPS for optimal results.

 

regards

sunny

[sunny_time_99]

5 hours ago, Cooler said:

Not only noise(electrical) is problem. Another issue is vibration. And fan would create additional EMF anyway.

I would buy better case, than add fans.

There are a lot more problems. The easiest way is to use a pc hardware that doesn't need a fan like the fujitsu futro ones. Its a computer with a  high audio performance.

 

Best regards

 

Sunny

[sunny_time_99]

Hi,

did anyone tried daphile in a client/server setup and compare it to audiolinux? for the last nearly 4 years i am using daphile an the futro 900 thinclient with realy supreme audio results. i use it in an Server/Client Setup with my own designed power supply.

To try daphile its only a 5 Minute thing to do... You just need to prepare 2 usb sticks or sd-cards to make it run. anyone here who tried that too?

you can buy my recommended futro for 20-30 euro on eBay - and even when labled Fujitsu its still made in Germany! Its a perfect match for the daphile 64-bit rt kernel. 4GB ram is highly recommended. Throw the 20v smps and use a good and clean min. 2A rated LPS for optimal results.

 

On the picture os my prototype client. Newclassd neutron star reference clock. DC filter,  mosfet rectifier with lt4320, choke filter and belleson and uwb2 regulators. Seperate power for thin, cf, clock and a modified ideon 3R MK2. A bit small the enclosure... But its ok...

 

regards

sunny

[sunny_time_99]

@rafa

there are only 2 transformers. This is allready a compromise. Normally i use one transformator per psu. What you are pointing at is a differential mode choke. This is part of every psu i build. For the last 4 years i build a lot more than 40 different psu with different designs vom battery to ultracap vom choke incl. to shunt back and forth. In a high end psu you can try your very best to work against some of the more than 30 different kind of noise. Every transformator produces cm-noise. Therefore a cm-choke in the ac line is included. The hammond choke helps against hf-trash and differential mode noise. The big audible difference is the mosfet recitiver. Every kind of diode sounds different - from glass to schottky. I used differend kinds of  zobel during the years. But this mosfet stuff is a big step in sound. Clearer and more dynamics than any other. Space is not my problem.... If you would see my dacs. ?

 

I never would use a ssd. Compare hdd, sdd, msata, sd, usb stick an cf and let your ears decide...

 

Every part has a different power and that's importent.

 

Best regards

[sunny_time_99]

15 hours ago, seeteeyou said:

....

A123 LiFePO4 batteries are well known for their quality, that's why Ian Canada's latest project might do the trick when we're powering multiple units of NUC

 

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/power-supplies/327105-develop-ultra-capacitor-power-supply-lifepo4-battery-power-supply-31.html#post5623486

 

Hi, 

for my opinion, don´t expect too much from Ultracaps and LiFePO4. We allready use that since 2014. At first i like the idea only to listen Music out of a big cap without beeing connected to the wall. But in a direct comperision the ultracaps and the LiFePO4 were only second place behind a good regulated psu. I have tried a lot of battery/Lipo/LiFePo4/Ultracaps up to 3000F cells  during the last 25 years of Hifi - i was never satisfied. The same with  lt3045 Regulators. i really dont understand the Hype. Its a low ripple, ok, but the soundquality is only midclass. Everytime, when i use them the Sound seems to be thin for my ears. 

 

Kind regards

 

Sunny

[sunny_time_99]

5 hours ago, RickyV said:

 

Okay, so what is a good PSU (DIY)?

SR7 are too expensive.

the SR7 must be that expensive, like other must have that price tag too. it depends of the amount of possible sellings...the developement costs etc.... i think i dont need to explain it. it has def. a good price value. but using it is not what i call diy. that means find our own way - not buy something and put two cable together ?

as i start my way to audio heaven (will never end) i use diffeent linear power supplies, and start to make my own comparison. that takes years for me and more than 40 differend circuits until i found my personal favorite for my personal taste. it must be scalable, flexible and should work very fine in digital an analog parts. of course its over engeneered, but it fits everywere. all that pus units left a small part in my actual favorite design. since the end of 2016 i am working with the mosfet-rectifier and lt4320. I asked Vasilis Tounas from Ideon to draw it in eagle -i am to stupid for that- since my first dac we became one kind of oldfashiones letter-friendship - not uninteresting for both sides, i think.

look, i need for a complete dac, streamer, router, switch-setup with server/client solution  about 15-20 pcs of supreme power supplies on same level like the JS-2 or SR 4. in positive and negative for e.g. the op-amp. this is overkill, i know - but i can´t .... i must ... you know its a hobby... religion... Count the amount of money for such a setup. that´s my reason for diy.

such a universal power supply should have: a dc trap before the transformator, a good transformer, a common noise choke behind becoz the lt4320 reacts very sensetive on cm-noise, the lt4320 with extreme low resistant mosfets, a differential mode choke like JS use it in his older designs for the squeezebox and the JS-2 (sometimes i use normal speaker coils instead of the big hammonds), fast and good sounding caps like the Nichicon muse, a 780x -style regulator like belleson super reg, daxa/newclassd uwb2/schellarz audio reg or the sparkos labs reg and a hand full of silmic 2. (i like the combination of muse before the reg and silmic II behind - thats a kind of personal taste). wen you want a resistor to give the transients a place to go and a a small input/output 0,1-0,3uF Wima Foil. Thats it. you can build that from scratch in about 40 minutes...due to the fact i got some friends, who want it to...i have pcb´s now.

you can ask me if you need the schematic. but its so easy. on the pictures the choke is missing.

 

beware of all chinese boards. often they use fake parts, wrong designs, old parts - relabled. buy two - get 2 different - and different sounding. don´t buy lt1083-85 regulator designs in the internet - 99,5% are fake - on ebay 100%. beware they use other regs that can only deliver 1-1.5A.

regards sunny

[sunny_time_99]

15 hours ago, Bricki said:

Of course there are better dacs than a mojo but I would rather spend my money to improve things upstream because that is where I believe the more significant bottle necks are. 

 

@austinpop may have an opinion about the relative benefits of improving the dac vs improving everything before the dac??

 

He has had a lot of recent experience with doing exactly that, so he may be able to chime in here. 

thats my opinion too. the last years i spend a lot time to build dac´s better and better. but in the last months we put more focus on the streamer itself. and later on server/client typol. if the frontend is state of the art - its not a big difference if i change froim my actual 9038pro design back to my beloved 14bit tpa1540. The difference - powered with the same supreme psu units - is in the same range if you change a good usb cable into a 1euro-came with the printer usbcable.

the change of sq was bigger from a futro with daphile to 2 futro with daphile in server/client mode. and if you need to have a look on the price tag... its much cheaper than spending a lot money for a new dac. better save the money an spend it on the upstream. if your ready with that...and the wallet is still full, try to update your creapy powersupply of your old dac... change the clock ... the op-amps end so on. you will learn a lot and have more fun.

 

regards

sunny

[sunny_time_99]

37 minutes ago, ray-dude said:

 

I've learned to hit play and leave it alone!!  Watching the detailed logs, it looks like it is the two way orchestration is when things glitch

 

I can't go back to Roon Bridge, but I can't impose squeezelite on civilians (yet)

 

 

Why are you so focussed on roon?  Before i switch back to squeezelite... I prefer the daphile squeeze based solution. You got a server, you got a client... Took you about 10 minutes to prepare a usb stick with the 64bit real time kernel... And 2 sd cards etc to give it a try. At least 20min...all is installed and running. I guess you will not make a mistake.

 

Regards

Sunny

[sunny_time_99]

13 hours ago, Advieira said:

...I have read that some people say that the M-scaler is a Game Over in pursuit of sound quality of transport/source/Streaming

hi, 

as  long as one component reacts (e.g. the m-scaler) on a component-change  in the upstream... ist not game over. after 4 years of expensively hunting for the holy grail in streaming. i must say that i don´t belief, it will come to an end soon. there are so many influences on the total sq, so many strange discoveries made until now, noone got a answer, why that happends and how. 

I think we realy understood not even 20% of CA. and if you had a look at most of the professionals and the retail stuff, they do either. for the most i think, noise dosn´t realy exist. 

 

regards,

 

sunny

[sunny_time_99]

On 12/19/2018 at 9:04 PM, Dev said:

 

Below is the interesting part and key difference from LPS-1(.2). Any thoughts from the PSU experts ?

 

Why are you using the super capacitor power bank as smoothing capacitors and do you not switch between one bank while loading the other?

There are several reasons why we do not do this. First it means extra switching electronics in the supply lines, second it means that you are using only half of capacity of the super caps at a time. Third and maybe most important, it means that the final regulator does not get a constant voltage at its input, meaning different voltage drop, and therefore slowly varying power dissipation and temperatures all the time. This influences the output characteristics of the regulator, and the output power quality. Because in our supplies we use a choke smoothing and pre-regulation before the supercapacitor banks, noise residue will be minimal and also the necessity for switching.

Its so funny we allready tried this in 2014 /2015 with first 3.000F boostcaps, than boostcap plus regulated psu, than with regulator behind, than switching F350 cells with a rpi doing the switching job... Than with choke smoothing and regulator... A polymer in the output behind the regulator... And and and...

more can be found here: (german language only) https://www.diy-hifi-forum.eu/forum/showthread.php?9501-Auf-der-Suche-nach-meinem-idealen-Netzwerkplayer-mein-Leidensweg/page2

That was much earlier than anyone else in the internet.

But in the end, we allways found out that there are much better ways without ultracaps. It was a nice way... But today i will not use ultracaps anymore in my system. I just found 2 pics from 2014/2015 on my mobile phone...but i can find pictures from every step. From time to time a friend uses these old ultracap psu to make sure how far we are now away from that point.

 

But i still like the way ultracaps indicate mistakes in your wireing ?

 

Regards

 

Sunny

[sunny_time_99]

My opinion befor spending so much money for something new... Is allways important to find out which part is responsible for the better sq. Thats what am i doing for years now. Changing one endpoint to another will never end the game, because all retail stuff got build in other bottlenecks. There is nothing available on the market without a bottleneck. I am using 6 neutron star 2 in my setup until now and some neutrino star...The using of neutron stars is realy a big step in sq. But i am not using their power supply. The neutron star power supply sounds... Like the psu i build 3 years ago. The clock in a system should have the best psu. For that reason i build a kaskarde of my psu with 2 regulators at minimum.

 

Regards

[sunny_time_99]

45 minutes ago, Music Enthusiast said:

So you're saying it's impossible to engineer a DAC to not be influenced from upstream tweaks? 

That is definitely true.

 

And the dac is only one part in the whole game. And my listening experience  is that it has not the biggest influence on the total sq. I focused on the dac for years and build dacs with all available dac chips in the last years but today i would only say that the dac makes 20-25% of the total sq. There are many possibilities to get a better sq without  spending money for a new dac

 

Regards

[sunny_time_99]

On 12/27/2018 at 2:07 AM, RickyV said:

 

Hi sunny time 

very interesting i have one neutron star 2 in my system with the stock power supply. What 3 regulators are you using? Was it a substantial or a more modest improvement?

Also I have two neutrino’s clocks but am not sure if a crystek 575, 957 wouldn’t be better.

 

rick

 

Hi rick,

the improvement is not allways the same. the biggest step was the clock inside of the Ideon 3R followed the change inside the pc. the clock for the 9038pro and the 3 clocks inside of the usb/i2s converter were all noticible and important. but its the end of modification. spend only 1.000 euro for modding the 3 clocks of a cm6631a or xmos? only possible if you are as sick as me. thats the latest thing you can do - first there a a lot of better tweaks for the money - a server/client e.g., a modification of the switch (i modded my dlink with a sellarz audio clock).... and so on. 

a crystek tuning is recommended, if you are unsing "normal" clocks. you can use small carrier pcb´s to connect the 575, 957 clocks with your existing equiptment. the neutron star is a realy good sq- update for cchd957 and 575. maybe not in a scope-contest - but this thread is only for listening experience...

as i mentioned before... wait until you try it, until you tried everything in this thread first - its the most expensivest mod - not the best value for the money. i would allways do this again, pls don´t get me wrong, but i am sick...

 

On 12/27/2018 at 2:21 AM, RickyV said:

 

What do you think the streamer makes on total sq?

 

 

 

Hi,

imho its about 50-60%. I prefer a server/client solution. the sq rises about 10% if two futro S900 are sharing the job. of course its much more money, but worth every (euro)cent ?

in my setup at the moment i can swap the dac without missing that much. mit favorite dac at the moment is an diy 9038pro with 6 seperate power supply, a class a output and 3 Neutron star / and one neutrino star. I am using a heavy modded ideon 3R with an neutron star. but i still can enjoy music when i swap that dac back to a tda-1540 design, that is only playing with 14bit! or a heavy modded implementation of the usb monica . therefore i think the dac is not that importent anymore. bit. in the past i spend the most money on the dac... today, we are working on makeing that thing cheaper, without loosing musicality or resolution.

 

 

On 12/27/2018 at 6:45 AM, Chopin75 said:

Streamer is as important if not more than DAC, and that includes the software player, and the OS as well as the hardware itself. For eg Mac OS sucks compared with Linux. Audirvana beats J river on Mac OS from my experience 

 

the software makes min. 50% of the streamer, nuc and of course the nas, of you are still using one. second place behind software is the power supply. not only focus on ripple rejection or low output impedance. there are a lot more, that a good sounding psu must be able to do.

behind the power supply, the clock is the next point - but were now in the last 10% -sq-range...

 

pls, don´t take this personel (i just picked your posting), but imho if someone is still using any kind of a windows based machine, a mac os, j-river, hq-player etc.... can´t even imagine what is possible at the moment. switching the software costs nearly nothing, but after that maybe the coverflow is not that nice... but the sq is on a different level.

 

On 12/27/2018 at 8:07 PM, Superdad said:

 

Actually, look at the -100 dBc/Hz phase noise @10Hz offset spec for the $50 20Mhz Connor-Winfield OH4 and you will see that better clocks (for audio applications) cost less, not more. 

Even the $9.60 Crystek CCHD-575 has lower phase noise/jitter than those C-W clocks. And that's from the published very conservative Crystek plots--actual production 575s run -108 to -112 at 10Hz (for a 25MHz part).

 

the cchd-575 is a realy nice sounding clock, i agree. but the clock itself is not only the one who is making the difference. the implementation is also important. look at the neutron star. lars clausen is using "normal" clocks - but the sq is outstandung. i am realy happy that the 24mhz version of the cchd-575 is (sometimes) available on mouser. this, and a good psu is a easy update for a lot of stuff.

 

regards

 

sunny

[sunny_time_99]

Guys... The sr7 is not the only good sounding PSU on the Market. At the moment you are just building legends instead of beeing open minded.

 

If you want to have a realy good setup you need a supreme class psu at every important part. In my setup i use 20! That are sounding close to the top-class sr7. Thats a much bigger step than only one...

 

Regards

 

Sunny

 

[sunny_time_99]

Beside diy? Thats really hard. Because the most available even high pricetag psu have a lot of bottlenecks inside. 2-3 years ago i spend a lot of time at home with the  js-2 of a friend. It was a good benchmark for me while i checked out more than 40 differend designs. The big plus... : its available and for the price of a sr7 you can buy  2....

[sunny_time_99]

Your Clock-Signal look awful!

24mhz must look as clean as this 12 mhz from a neutron Star

[sunny_time_99]

11 hours ago, RickyV said:

Sorry @sunny_time_99 to drag you into this but you seem to know more about clocks.

 

Sorry if this is bit to much DIY

 

 

you don´t need to be sorry. 😉

 

i must apologise, that i dont know that much about clocks. what is know has more to do with practical doing - trial and error-

 

Phase noise is only one aspect. Its nice to measure - like Femto-Sec. Jitter - but thats not the point, what makes it a good clock. a better phase noise ratio brings not a big benefit, if you leave the clock were it is. there are a lot more things to do.

 

I did not buy/use the NewClassD Neutron Star because of the better phase noise! I use it because the clock is seperated from the host board. I dont want the noise from all the circuits in the host machine to be connected with the clock circuit. And as a result destroying the clock signal/quality. As is found out, it destroys the clock performance. The Neutron Star uses an isolator to eliminate ground loops.

 

The next thing is "femtosecond-clocks". Only a nice thing to measure and for a superior marketing-trick. it has nothing to do with the performace and the sonic quality of the clock module. Femto-Clocks are not better than the rest. Femtoseconds looks  great in a factsheet  but its not a fancy new technology for building clocks,  its more about the way jitter is measured.

 

The Neutrino/Neutron Star are just  vehicles. Lars uses normal Oscillators to get the wanted frequence. Its adjustible so the main neutrino/Neutron Star-Board is allways the same. That makes the clock module so flexible. I changed the oscillator by myself.

 

The phase-noise of the small neutrino is mentioned here:

http://newclassd.com/index.php?page=152&hv=1

 

But the Neutrino is only the small version. If i compare the sonic impact - Neutron Star is the winner. The difference is realy big - even if the neutrino is using an isolator too. I try the newclassd-psu, that comes with the clock. Even when Lars can bulid that ultra precise Clocks, the UWB2 Regulator, and the wonderful sounding Singularity Amplifier, the psu for the Neutron Star did not even come close to my own Power Supply - even if is use his regulators 🙂

 

Imho if you try to use an external clock, one big benefit is the seperate power supply of the clock, the isolation of the clock and the host board. @RickyVif you use a crystek instead of the existing clock, it will not be a big step. i think you will not be able to hear a difference. You must take out that clock you want to use and power it with a seperate ultra clean power supply and isolate that circuit from the rest to prevent ground loops. that will make a difference. You must keep wires short. The Clock-Signal is very sensitive. 3-4cm maximum diffgerence between neutron star and host board with the active output.

The sonic benefit of a clock mode inside of a computer/nuc is not that big than a modification of a usb/i2s interface. I did that a long time ago. Nice to see that this thread comes closer 😉

 

On the pictures a small part of my audio setup. A CM 6631A usb/i2s Converter from diyinhk.com together with a ideon audio 3R - both modified with Newtron Star 2 Clocks. That is a big step!

I try to modify the board also with crystek 957, becourse in my mind... 4 years ago, i liked the performance of the 957 oscillator clocks. but that was another place and time. if you can compare the sonic quality of these clocks with other, it sounds boaring today. I am happy with my smd-microscope that makes all that possible.

 

regards

 

Sunny

 

[sunny_time_99]

Hi @RickyV,

it depends. The coax output is only better if you cant mount it very close to the host. the neutrino is an improvement due to the seperate power supply and the isolator but it didn´t come with the temperature regulation like the neutron star got. how many other clock-boards do you know that got that feature??

@LTG2010the fidelityaudio clock would not be my choice, becouse it got no isolator and the rest looks easy made for me. (it got no temperature regulation also) some polymere caps did not make me to click on the "buy "button. what is really nice is a fitting service... just wondering how that thing could weigh 10kg!

 

you can compare the neutrino sq with a sellarz audio

https://www.ebay.de/itm/R-Clock-High-Precision-Low-Jitter-Reference-Clock-with-Ultra-Low-Noise-Regulator/230871603430?hash=item35c10518e6:g:EJAAAOxyyUtScgHh

 

for example. It got a seperate supply and a isolator. neutrino and sellarz are worth what you pay for it. i prefer the neutron stars active input. if you use it to replace a cmos-clock, it will work without adjustment. sometimes when you are using the coax output it can be tricky, and sometimes you need to adjust the signal with a small trimmer. so without the possibillity of measurement impossible to do.

 

regards

 

Sunny

 

[sunny_time_99]

24 minutes ago, auricgoldfinger said:

 

FWIW, May claims that an externally clocked sNH-10G does not sound as good as the model with the internal sCLK-EX board. 

 

 

That is normal for clock tunings. Against all marketing stuff... A clock can only be clean on short distances. Dont believe in one who tells you that 50cm+ like you have if you use an external clock is okey. 5cm clock to host ist okey. better less than that, even with coax cables. That can only be done with internal clocks, guy's. Every cm more is an open side for pollution of any kind. Buy something like this below .. And find out what and how much is going to have an influence on you clock cable...

Its not realy precise but enough to have an idea whats going on in the neighborhood.

 

Regards

 

Sunny

[sunny_time_99]

4 hours ago, TubeMan said:

looks like a SOtM clone, improvement
same chipset as SOtM,
Texas drivers for both
very similar layout,

 

but seems interesting because they have another clock

 

hi,

this is normal. most Designers are just taking the datasheet and build up the recommended circuid. thats it - no Magic!

the first time i saw that X-HI Version - that would be the one to take for me - ist easy to Change the onboard clock with a Neutron star. the sq-difference from that blue Jeans clock and the cchd575 is imho not that big, and not worth 100 bucks. much better is a seperate clock with seperate power supply and Isolation to prevend ground-loops. 

 

regards

 

sunny

[sunny_time_99]

2 hours ago, motberg said:

 

Anyone using or compare AL or Euphony with Volumio?

 

HI,

 

i am doing it for nearly 3 Weeks now. Still have no 100% favorite! that means in other words Volumio is damned good for being a Freeware. it depends on the Hardware, which System is the best. On my older futro 900-fanless PC daphile wins every contest. ... so there is no operating System that wins every contest on all hardware-Setups. After listening to Volumio on a single NUC7i7DNHE (i own two in Plato Housing for better A/B-Test) for nearly two weeks i changed back to euphony yesterday - and back to volumio, becouse i missed the higher Dynamics from Volumio.

 

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•  #13764

Posted 1 hour ago

9 hours ago, romaz said:

 

Avoidance of a SSD is my chief goal since disk access isn't such a big deal with Linux.  Even a USB stick which is very slow sounds as good as an Optane drive with either Euphony or AL.  I think the performance of Optane is a bigger deal for Windows.

 

Anyone have suggestions on what type or characteristics a USB stick should have for persistent use with Euphony or AL ?

I was comparing optane, USB-Stick 2.0, SLC USB-Stick this Weekend with Euphony. On Optane, Euphony sounds a bit thin and bloodless to my ears. A USB 2.0 Intenso Stick was on the same Level - so no benefit. A seperate powered  SLC-USB-Stick from Winkom opened the door to never heared subsonics.

Regards

Sunny

[sunny_time_99]

40 minutes ago, romaz said:

 

My experience is that the quality of the USB stick has no impact on SQ.  I've tried an expensive SLC USB stick I had lying around and it resulted in no change in SQ that I could hear with Euphony compared against a cheap $5 Sandisk.  Of course, if you are using AL ramrooted, for sure the USB stick won't matter.

 

Just get a fast USB 3.0 or 3.1 USB stick to keep your wait times to a minimum during bootup.  These devices have limited write cycles before they fail and so make sure you have a backup.  Fortunately, these things are cheap.

 

This will be my last post on AS for the foreseeable future.  Please forgive me if I don't respond to queries that are addressed to me.  Best wishes and I hope to meet up with some of you in Munich in May.

 

thats right, The Magic comes when you power the usb-stick with a seperate and high quality power supply.

 

use  e.g. a usb 3.0 Adapter, take out the ground and V+ line, cut V+ line, connect V+ and gnd from your psu... then you will be able to hear really big differences between CF, SD, SLC and simple blue jeans usb sticks. These differences are much bigger than clock tunings. Everything that ist connected to the nuc/pc must have a seperate power supply and the V+-Line cut. thats a basic in a audiophile Computer audio setup.

 

regards

 

sunny

[sunny_time_99]

1 hour ago, TubeMan said:

buy a decent router from ex,
Netgate, Mikrotik, Routerboard, or Unifi 

Hi,

even though i was not asking, its very interesting for me too. do you know if the Routers can handle vdsl? 

regards

 

sunny

[sunny_time_99]

@austinpop did he talk about re-thinking the pricing model, so thats a bit cheaper for Server/endpoint users?

regards

sunny

 

[sunny_time_99]

Lifepo4 battery power supplies are far away, of what is possible. 3 years ago we start with that... Go that way... And compare a lot... Then you will find out, that connected to the power line... Is better...

 

Happy listening

 

Sunny