iFi Audio Micro iDSD Black Label (released on the 30th of November 2016)

[lmitche]

Jud, sometimes your are just TOO nice!

[Jud]

8 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Jud, sometimes your are just TOO nice!

 

I know...

[crenca]

1 hour ago, Jud said:

 

While I agree about the obscure marketing labels for the modulators and that more information would be helpful, most manufacturers and developers treat the particulars of these things as proprietary.  But don't we have measurements?  That is very likely to give us as much information as iFi will wish to provide.

 

I also doubt we have to worry overmuch about stressing equipment.  If anyone's concerned, use Standard or one of the software DSD modulators that's available.

7 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Jud, sometimes your are just TOO nice!

 

That is what I was thinking lmitche.  Why Jud, why?  Why would we have to measure and workaround (by using other software for example)?  Because there is some marketing advantage to to keeping the specs of a low pass filter hidden from the consumer?  I don't believe it...

[Jud]

14 minutes ago, crenca said:

 

That is what I was thinking lmitche.  Why Jud, why?  Why would we have to measure and workaround (by using other software for example)?  Because there is some marketing advantage to to keeping the specs of a low pass filter hidden from the consumer?  I don't believe it...

 

I meant I believe there already *are* graphs of the responses of the modulators available, aren't there?  Or am I misremembering that?  That's the information we want, and it was with that impression I was saying it doesn't then matter much what iFi does or doesn't want to say; that's up to them and their customer relations.

 

 It should be said though that if you ask the vast majority of DAC manufacturers and developers for details of the response of their filters/modulators, I'm guessing you'll get a nearly identical reaction.  It's a big part of a DAC's sound (if external software isn't used instead), so these folks naturally feel a keen commercial interest in hanging on to this information to the extent they're able.

[rickca]

1 hour ago, Jud said:

I meant I believe there already *are* graphs of the responses of the modulators available, aren't there?

It was once suggested in a Head-Fi thread to look at pages 40-41 of this DSD1793 document 

http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/dsd1793.pdf

[AMR/iFi audio]

We hate to interrupt, but we have a major groundhog situation. Anyone suspects what this critter might be all about?

 

[asdf1000]

5 hours ago, crenca said:

  

Just to verify, your using the iDSD BL to drive the HD800S (and not a seperate amplifier)?

 

Hi mate yep using the iDSD to drive the HD800S directly.  In "Normal" power mode I never have to go past 3 o'clock on the volume know. I'm mostly using between 11 and 3 o'clock on the volume knob. I have volume levelling on though  which drops the gain by ~10dB and still Normal mode is enough. I don't dare try Turbo lol - I propably wouldn't be able to use past 10 oclock on the knob, too small a range for volume control.

[lmitche]

19 minutes ago, AMR/iFi audio said:

We hate to interrupt, but we have a major groundhog situation. Anyone suspects what this critter might be all about?

 

Be careful, us Yankees are learning a lot about people trying to change the topic!

[Jud]

22 minutes ago, AMR/iFi audio said:

We hate to interrupt, but we have a major groundhog situation. Anyone suspects what this critter might be all about?

 

 

It's like the movie Groundhog Day, and you're going to repeat a release you've already done?

[lmitche]

45 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

It's like the movie Groundhog Day, and you're going to repeat a release you've already done?

Oh yeh, the phony product release with the picture of the customer that died waiting for the new DAC just before RMAF this past year! So clever!

[crenca]

5 hours ago, Jud said:

 

I meant I believe there already *are* graphs of the responses of the modulators available, aren't there?  Or am I misremembering that?  That's the information we want, and it was with that impression I was saying it doesn't then matter much what iFi does or doesn't want to say; that's up to them and their customer relations.

 

 It should be said though that if you ask the vast majority of DAC manufacturers and developers for details of the response of their filters/modulators, I'm guessing you'll get a nearly identical reaction.  It's a big part of a DAC's sound (if external software isn't used instead), so these folks naturally feel a keen commercial interest in hanging on to this information to the extent they're able.

 

Well, I can't disagree with the forces at work here...I still don't have to be happy about it...In fact, I think I will just stay grumpy about it if that is ok with everyone

[crenca]

2 hours ago, AMR/iFi audio said:

We hate to interrupt, but we have a major groundhog situation. Anyone suspects what this critter might be all about?

 

 

Well, I admit it - I don't get this at all,  

 

I am from the south of the Mason Dixie line so this must be one of those yankee things...  

[crenca]

3 hours ago, rickca said:

It was once suggested in a Head-Fi thread to look at pages 40-41 of this DSD1793 document 

http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/dsd1793.pdf

 

Thanks...not sure what to do with that as all the filters seem too shallow if I am looking at them correctly (probably not).

[asdf1000]

On 5/5/2017 at 6:21 AM, AMR/iFi audio said:

 

 

Hi Gents

 

I saw this comment from someone much smarter than me about up-sampling to DSD 1024, for a specific product USB interface, so this should not read as a generalised comment about all up-sampling beyond DSD256:

 

"the higher you go up in frequency, the higher the phase noise of the clocks. It's not just a simple matter of higher is better. It doesn't take more expense or knowledge to support DSD 1024. DAC manufacturers just don't do it because they know the compromises involved. So if you see something with that high of support, keep in mind they only did it for marketing purposes, not for better sound. For example the DIYINHK USB interface that supports DSD 1024, has clocks with over 15x the jitter than the version that only supports 256. The designer knows it, and he knows the one that maxes out at 256 sounds much better."

 

I want to re-iterate I'm not taking their comment as a general comment about up-sampling to beyond DSD 256 so I don't want to take their comments out of context.

 

But in terms of the iFi iDSD, is the USB interface jitter performance identical for DSD256 and DSD512 inputs?

 

If using HQP or Roon to do up-sampling, would you recommend DSD256 for better jitter performance over DSD512? Or have you measured jitter performance and phase noise of the clocks to be identical at DSD256 and DSD512?

 

Of course we should just use whatever sounds best to our ears but I'm (sadly) interested in understanding the products I own, even just at a high level.

 

Cheers again !

 

[asdf1000]

34 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

 

Hi Gents

 

I saw this comment from someone much smarter than me about up-sampling to DSD 1024, for a specific product USB interface, so this should not read as a generalised comment about all up-sampling beyond DSD256:

 

I couldn't edit the above post but I just want to add that my question about the iDSD has nothing to do with DSD 1024. The comments about DSD 1024 and a specific product, was just for context

 

My question is specifically about the iDSD's DSD256 and DSD512 performance, in particular the clocks jitter performance and overall measured performance.

 

Cheers again ! :-)

 

[lmitche]

1 hour ago, Em2016 said:

 

I couldn't edit the above post but I just want to add that my question about the iDSD has nothing to do with DSD 1024. The comments about DSD 1024 and a specific product, was just for context

 

My question is specifically about the iDSD's DSD256 and DSD512 performance, in particular the clocks jitter performance and overall measured performance.

 

Cheers again ! :-)

 

Over here dsd512 sounds significantly better then dsd256.  Why not just try it yourself?

[asdf1000]

Just now, lmitche said:

Over here dsd512 sounds significantly better then dsd256.  Why not just try it yourself?

 

Hi mate, as mentioned above 'Of course we should just use whatever sounds best to our ears but I'm (sadly) interested in understanding the products I own, even just at a high level.'

 

I know it's sad that I'm interested in this stuff. Just curious. It's sounding great :-)

 

[lmitche]

8 hours ago, Em2016 said:

 

Hi mate, as mentioned above 'Of course we should just use whatever sounds best to our ears but I'm (sadly) interested in understanding the products I own, even just at a high level.'

 

I know it's sad that I'm interested in this stuff. Just curious. It's sounding great :-)

 

There have been lots of graphs published over the years taken from the IFI microidsd at various dsd rates, what do they tell you? Can you hear the conclusions you see from the graphs? How is it that you are saddened by any of this?

[asdf1000]

9 minutes ago, lmitche said:

There have been lots of graphs published over the years taken from the IFI microidsd at various dsd rates, what do they tell you? Can you hear the conclusions you see from the graphs? How is it that you are saddened by any of this?

 

Hi mate, as mentioned, I'm definitely not saddened by what I hear... I love what I hear.

I said it's sad that I'm interested in this stuff. Maybe there was a little mis-understanding there.

 

Anyway this was a question for the iFi chaps.

 

Appreciated

 

[lmitche]

Found it.  These measurements are for the silver version most likely several firmware version ago:

 

And the IFI response:

 

https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/ifi-idsd-micro-dsd512-pcm768-dac-and-headphone-amp-impressions-reviews-and-comments.728236/page-110

[asdf1000]

8 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Found it.  These measurements are for the silver version most likely several firmware version ago:

 

And the IFI response:

 

https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/ifi-idsd-micro-dsd512-pcm768-dac-and-headphone-amp-impressions-reviews-and-comments.728236/page-110

 

Thanks for that ! I don't know enough to know if/how those results relate to the increased phase noise and jitter mentioned in my earlier post, hence my question to iFi because I do like reading this stuff, even if some stuff sometimes goes over my head (again, I know, this is sad lol).

 

But something is better than nothing and at least comparing DSD512 and DSD256 in those measurements, DSD512 wins in those particular graphs.

 

As you hinted, perhaps things improved with my BL Edition and the firmware that followed from when those measurements were taken.

 

Did you find there was a break-in period with your unit? I've read some saying 100 hours, some saying 300 hours.

 

It'll be interesting to hear if it improves further, not that I'm desperate for changes. I'm already quite happy with mine after maybe 30 hours playing ! :-)

 

iFi suggest 7 x 24 hrs burn in for the iCAN SE. I know that's a completely different product with very different tech inside. Perhaps that's their standard recommendation though? http://support.ifi-audio.com/kb/faq.php?id=44

 

Cheers again

[lmitche]

1 hour ago, Em2016 said:

 

Thanks for that ! I don't know enough to know if/how those results relate to the increased phase noise and jitter mentioned in my earlier post, hence my question to iFi because I do like reading this stuff, even if some stuff sometimes goes over my head (again, I know, this is sad lol).

 

But something is better than nothing and at least comparing DSD512 and DSD256 in those measurements, DSD512 wins in those particular graphs.

 

As you hinted, perhaps things improved with my BL Edition and the firmware that followed from when those measurements were taken.

 

Did you find there was a break-in period with your unit? I've read some saying 100 hours, some saying 300 hours.

 

It'll be interesting to hear if it improves further, not that I'm desperate for changes. I'm already quite happy with mine after maybe 30 hours playing ! :-)

 

iFi suggest 7 x 24 hrs burn in for the iCAN SE. I know that's a completely different product with very different tech inside. Perhaps that's their standard recommendation though? http://support.ifi-audio.com/kb/faq.php?id=44

 

Cheers again

Hard to say anything about breakin times here as I'm constantly tweaking something and things are usually constantly improving.  The sound quality is fantastic with everything upsampled to dsd512 using Hqplayer. Three hundred hours is a long time.  I did recently leave roon radio running with the amp turned off for about a week. When I finally sat down to listen, I would swear there was an improvement, and that is with a DAC owned for 6 months.  Maybe my ears needed a break, I don't know.  There is not a single indication that the BL is a limitation in anyway for improvement's made upstream.

[crenca]

2 hours ago, Em2016 said:

 

Thanks for that ! I don't know enough to know if/how those results relate to the increased phase noise and jitter mentioned in my earlier post, hence my question

 

I don't think they have anything to do with your question which is legitimate I think.  I don't know if I have ever seen any measurements of what you refer to however - I wonder if even iFi knows how to answer???

[asdf1000]

"MQA will be supporting partner demonstrations at this year’s IFA, including new MQA hardware partner, iFi Audio, who will be showing their prototype micro iDSD Black Label DAC featuring MQA integration."

 

https://mqa-production.s3.amazonaws.com/default/0001/01/fb9dbb558843d061ce5d9277d285160bda310166.pdf

 

A planned firmware update for current iDSD BL owners? @AMR/iFi audio 

 

[Totsipaki]

Well hopefully!.. That would be a top move by ifi!..