Yesterday was a sad day

[Priaptor]

Personally, I think Dylan's 'With God On Our Side' was even more powerful.

 

I also think Phil Ochs needs to be included. I am a little biased as I got to see him as a 13 year old in a little coffee shop in Kew Gardens Queens, NY. He was my first real exposure to the anti-war movement. Plus some of his music sounds fantastic from an SQ standpoint today.

[Paul R]

Perhaps, but at least *I* am aware that the traditional solutions aren't working any better today than they were 50 years ago, yet so called "progressive" liberals have no new ideas and keep pushing the same methodologies, even though they have shown continually that they don't work. What's that definition of insanity, again? Doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting a different result? Looks a lot like a definition of so called "progressives" to me!

 

(*sigh*)

 

If those traditional solutions had not been working, and for that matter, still working, you would not be able to post your thoughts like this without serious consequence. (shrug) Tolerance takes a lot of work, just as it takes a good deal of time for the "melting pot" to work. The current trend towards diversity is just a way to slow the melting pot force down a bit and let people become more comfortable.

 

What is a bit frightening is that such a slowdown might really lead to the race war we were all afraid of back in the 1970s.

[Priaptor]

(*sigh*)

 

If those traditional solutions had not been working, and for that matter, still working, you would not be able to post your thoughts like this without serious consequence. (shrug) Tolerance takes a lot of work, just as it takes a good deal of time for the "melting pot" to work. The current trend towards diversity is just a way to slow the melting pot force down a bit and let people become more comfortable.

 

What is a bit frightening is that such a slowdown might really lead to the race war we were all afraid of back in the 1970s.

 

Please back on topic and stop the political jargon

[Paul R]

Please back on topic and stop the political jargon

 

(Yawn) I accede to the master of political and nonsensical jargon...

[Allan F]

I think what doesn't work is expecting *any* global set of instant doctrinally rigid (and helplessly inconsistent) solutions to be effective, progressive, conservative, what-have-you.

 

Now that's settled, may we get off the political kick and back to our more enjoyable discussion?

 

+12

[Rt66indierock]

This would a good time to remember Big Willie Robinson a street racer who kept the powder keg that was Los Angles in the sixties from igniting worse than it did. And Hootie Johnson who helped desegregate South Carolina universities after the Orangeburg massacre in 1968.

[blownsi]

Back on topic: I think the target audience of 180g vinyl is collectors not audiophiles. I've heard that much of the current vinyl sold is never opened, even less played. Of that which is opened is likely to be played on an inferior turntable and an even lesser amount of that sold is going to be compared to the original release. In short, for many of today's vinyl purchasers, 180g reissues are a must buy regardless of content.

 

As for Alice's Restaurant, my wife says that he is very "yummy" in that movie. So your SO may enjoy it even if you don't.

[Rt66indierock]

Back on topic: I think the target audience of 180g vinyl is collectors not audiophiles. I've heard that much of the current vinyl sold is never opened, even less played. Of that which is opened is likely to be played on an inferior turntable and an even lesser amount of that sold is going to be compared to the original release. In short, for many of today's vinyl purchasers, 180g reissues are a must buy regardless of content.

 

As for Alice's Restaurant, my wife says that he is very "yummy" in that movie. So your SO may enjoy it even if you don't.

 

The original point is my enjoyment of Alice's Restaurant began with with it being played on the radio Thanksgiving morning, it moved to cassette when a lot of the prep work was done Wednesday night and then to CD. The only time I want to be sitting when I hear it the odd time in a car or on my favorite radio station over the web in my office.

[bluesman]

I've heard that much of the current vinyl sold is never opened, even less played.

Hmmm - never opened, even less played: there's a metaphysical phenomenon!

 

All kidding aside, this is incredibly sad. Most of the high end wine that's sold at auction is never opened. Most concours winners are never driven. Most "original, unplayed" vintage musical instruments will never be played. Collectors and investors sequester a lot of really cool stuff that we could truly enjoy.

[wwaldmanfan]

Hmmm - never opened, even less played: there's a metaphysical phenomenon!

 

All kidding aside, this is incredibly sad. Most of the high end wine that's sold at auction is never opened. Most concours winners are never driven. Most "original, unplayed" vintage musical instruments will never be played. Collectors and investors sequester a lot of really cool stuff that we could truly enjoy.

 

You will relate to this. It's not vintage, but a friend owns a 20-year old Martin D-35 that has, literally, never been played. She is a well-heeled doctor who bought it for a friend, who didn't want it. It has just been stored in her daughter's bedroom closet all these years. I've been trying to get her to sell it to me, explaining that it will never be collectible, they've made too many of them, but I haven't been able to convince her that it deserves to be played.

[bluesman]

You will relate to this. It's not vintage, but a friend owns a 20-year old Martin D-35 that has, literally, never been played. She is a well-heeled doctor who bought it for a friend, who didn't want it. It has just been stored in her daughter's bedroom closet all these years. I've been trying to get her to sell it to me, explaining that it will never be collectible, they've made too many of them, but I haven't been able to convince her that it deserves to be played.

This is a common tragedy. And unless the storage area is well humidified, there's a high probability of dryness-induced damage. The wood shrinks when it's too dry - so fret ends start to protrude, binding loosens, tops and braces shift, and cracks can develop.

 

At least we have fewer such concerns about stored electronics, as long as they're not exposed to too much humidity . But speakers suffer from external dryness too.

 

If you love it, use it!

[Allan F]

This is a common tragedy. And unless the storage area is well humidified, there's a high probability of dryness-induced damage. The wood shrinks when it's too dry - so fret ends start to protrude, binding loosens, tops and braces shift, and cracks can develop.

 

At least we have fewer such concerns about stored electronics, as long as they're not exposed to too much humidity . But speakers suffer from external dryness too.

 

If you love it, use it!

Not to mention that a "new" 20 year old Martin is not going to sound nearly as good as a Martin that has been played regularly and "opened up". While a 20 year old Martin can hardly be described as vintage, It is truly a shame that collectors have inflated the market for vintage guitars to the extent that the vast majority of working musicians cannot afford to acquire them.

[jabbr]

Hmmm - never opened, even less played: there's a metaphysical phenomenon!

 

All kidding aside, this is incredibly sad. Most of the high end wine that's sold at auction is never opened. Most concours winners are never driven. Most "original, unplayed" vintage musical instruments will never be played. Collectors and investors sequester a lot of really cool stuff that we could truly enjoy.

 

That really surprises me -- well I guess not -- because it is very common knowledge in the classical community that the very best instruments have been played for hundreds of years. My experience is that collectors and investors "loan" their instruments to symphony players. One kid that I had the chance to travel in Europe with had won a contest and was given use of a $200,000+ instrument for 4 years... he took it on trains, subways, backpacking etc. That's what insurance is for

[wwaldmanfan]

That really surprises me -- well I guess not -- because it is very common knowledge in the classical community that the very best instruments have been played for hundreds of years. My experience is that collectors and investors "loan" their instruments to symphony players. One kid that I had the chance to travel in Europe with had won a contest and was given use of a $200,000+ instrument for 4 years... he took it on trains, subways, backpacking etc. That's what insurance is for

 

Well, here's one less priceless instrument in the world:

 

Kurt Russell destroyed antique guitar on the set of 'The Hateful Eight' - Business Insider

[jabbr]

Well, here's one less priceless instrument in the world:

 

Kurt Russell destroyed antique guitar on the set of 'The Hateful Eight' - Business Insider

 

[bluesman]

That really surprises me -- well I guess not -- because it is very common knowledge in the classical community that the very best instruments have been played for hundreds of years. My experience is that collectors and investors "loan" their instruments to symphony players. One kid that I had the chance to travel in Europe with had won a contest and was given use of a $200,000+ instrument for 4 years... he took it on trains, subways, backpacking etc. That's what insurance is for

The simple truth is that there are no "mint condition" Strads - every single instrument like this has been played since it was made. Probably all of them have been cracked and repaired many times. So the crazies who insist on pristine original condition as a requirement for investment don't consider some of the greatest instruments in the world to be good investments. Fortunately, there are some wise and benevolent investors who settle for a lower return while doing the world a huge favor and allowing use of their prizes by skilled musicians.

 

There are many truly great stringed instruments besides those made by Stradivarius, and there are many jazz players also using great old isntruments. Brian Bromberg's 300 year old Matteo Guersam bass is a great example of a fabulous instrument played regularly by a working musician. He has Chinese and German "clones" of it as well, but his father gave him that bass when he was a teenager and it's earned its keep.

 

Classical musicians have always considered the finest examples of their instruments to be playable, and they don't hesitate to use even a 7 figure piece. Fortunately, many benefactors have made it possible for those who deserve but could never afford fine instruments on their own to "borrow" them, which also means that we get to hear some of the best instruments ever made played well, now and for the forseeable future. There are expert luthiers to repair and maintain fine stringed instruments, and there are wonderful "mechanics" to do the same for those great Selmer Mark 6 saxophones etc.

 

Guitars are a different kettle of fish. Many have languished in closets and under beds for decades, for various reasons. But the most common reason in my experience (which comes from 60 years of active collecting and loving guitars as a working musician) is that some guitars just play and sound better than others of the same model and vintage. Many of those "unplayed - like new" Fenders, Gibsons etc remained unplayed because they didn't satisfy their owners for some reason. The Strats, Pauls etc that are beaten up and visibly worn got that way by being played hard - and that usually means that they were great instruments to play. Sure, some were left under beds because the owner died, the desire to play disappeared, etc - but I've played many "mint" old guitars that felt and sounded lousy - and the luthier doesn't exist who could make them great. Yet these are "worth" far more than well played examples of the same instruments, and will only remain so if they are never played again.

 

Martins are a bit different, in that very very few of them were / are dogs out of the box. 99% of the Martins, Guild flat tops, Gibson jumbos, Taylors, Collings and similar acoustic instruments were and are very good to excellent on delivery. The exception to this is the Montana-made Gibsons when the factory there first opened. I played brand new J200s, jumbos and custom pieces there and they were all terrible. The shop foreman blamed it on the dryness, which was believable - they apparently did not consider the ambient conditions strongly enough when they built the place. And they seem to have fixed the problem, so I wouldn't hesitate to buy a new Montana Gibson today if I wanted one.

 

Here's a great example of a jazz guitarist who treats fabulous old instruments as tools of the trade. Look at Tuck Andress' Gibson L5. He replaces valuable old PAF humbuckers with modern pickups and generally beats Hades out of what collectors consider prime stock. Many guitar purists hate him, claiming that he's depleting the world's remaining supply of vintage archtops because he goes through one of these in a few years at most before it's simply worn beyond restoration (he's physically rough in his playing style too).

 

[Jud]

The simple truth is that there are no "mint condition" Strads - every single instrument like this has been played since it was made. Probably all of them have been cracked and repaired many times. So the crazies who insist on pristine original condition as a requirement for investment don't consider some of the greatest instruments in the world to be good investments. Fortunately, there are some wise and benevolent investors who settle for a lower return while doing the world a huge favor and allowing use of their prizes by skilled musicians.

 

There are many truly great stringed instruments besides those made by Stradivarius, and there are many jazz players also using great old isntruments. Brian Bromberg's 300 year old Matteo Guersam bass is a great example of a fabulous instrument played regularly by a working musician. He has Chinese and German "clones" of it as well, but his father gave him that bass when he was a teenager and it's earned its keep.

 

 

If I remember correctly, Bromberg's bass is also an example of an instrument that has been cracked and repaired. I can't find it at the moment, but I recall reading an article or interview with him in which he mentioned the bass having been extensively damaged in shipment at one point and having to get it restored.

[bigbob]

Actually as bad a president as Bush Jr. was (we've had a string of 'em, haven't we? More to come - no matter which candidate wins, the American people lose - just as they did with Carter, Bush Sr., Bill Clinton, Bush Jr., Obama, and now either Hillary or Trump. The problem is that the people who SHOULD be running for president don't want the job, so we get the dregs of American Politics), it was not Bush's doing per se that got us into war in Iraq. He was just following orders. The military/industrial complex has kept us constantly at war for the past 30 years. If it wasn't the Balkans, it was Somalia, then Iraq, then Afghanistan. Isis is next then probably Iran before too long and eventually we're going to get into it with N. Korea. See, war makes money for large corporations like Lockheed-Martin, BEA, Northrup, General Dynamics, Newport News Shipbuilding and Dry dock, etc. The more war, the more money. And both political parties are in this - up to their corrupt necks as is the British government, and half of Europe!

 

.

The Anglo-American War Machine has been at it so long, I am afraid the World Economy is based upon those defense spending appropriations. Even a mind-numb wage slave must realize that the cost of one F-35 Joint Strike Fighter would buy free education from birth to Post-graduate for all who are willing to learn. I have turned off the TV, and started listening to the music of my youth

[bluesman]

If I remember correctly, Bromberg's bass is also an example of an instrument that has been cracked and repaired. I can't find it at the moment, but I recall reading an article or interview with him in which he mentioned the bass having been extensively damaged in shipment at one point and having to get it restored.

 

This is an occupational hazard for pros. One of the reasons that most jazz & commercial guitarists who play hollow guitars use laminated bodies instead of carved solid wood is that plywood doesn't crack. When you schlep your instrument in a car trunk or on the subway and expose it to extremes of temperature and humidity, it will inevitably crack and suffer other damage when you repeatedly open the case in a climate-controlled room. Wes Montgomery, Herb Ellis etc played Gibson 175s until they achieved enough prominence and financial reward to be able to care for "better" instruments.

 

Damage to pro instruments is virtually unavoidable. Wes wore a depression in the top of the L5 he finally got after years of playing his much less expensive (but tougher) 175. I saw him live often enough to know that there was no hole in the 175's top where he rested his fingers while picking with his thumb - but it went right into the carved spruce "like buttah". That's why there's a mother-of-pearl heart inlay in the top of the WM model L5 today.

 

 

And Wes, like many great players, knew all too well the perils of using a high end custom instrument. One of my favorite quotes from him is this one about why he always used standard guitars:

 

“I got a standard box. I don’t never want nothing special. Then if I drop my box, I can borrow somebody else’s.”

[Jud]

Wes wore a depression in the top of the L5 he finally got after years of playing his much less expensive (but tougher) 175. I saw him live often enough to know that there was no hole in the 175's top where he rested his fingers while picking with his thumb - but it went right into the carved spruce "like buttah". That's why there's a mother-of-pearl heart inlay in the top of the WM model L5 today.

 

 

They'd have to get the mother of all mother-of-pearls to inlay this:

 

 

[bluesman]

They'd have to get the mother of all mother-of-pearls to inlay this:

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]29601[/ATTACH]

 

Talk about using your guitar as a tool! The pic you chose doesn't show the extent of damage, though, Jud - here's a better shot of the poor thing. That's a Fishman pickup cut into the bridge. What saves Nelson from the ravages of collectors is that he's only done this to one guitar in 45 years and that one is not at all desirable or collectible (well...maybe it is now).

 

 

Trigger is a Martin N20. Nelson reportedly chose that model (an unusual one from Martin, as they've never been known for nylon stringed guitars) because he wanted to sound like Django Reinhardt. He doesn't.

[mansr]

[bluesman]

Indeed it is "perfectly good guitar", and the band illustrates what I've been saying - they're not using sophisticated instruments because there's no reason to do so.

 

The blond electric is an entry-level Gibson Les Paul Jr. Various incarnations of that body have been sold with different hardware & trim since 1959 (when they cost $99). I think the one in the video currently lists for $699 in comparison with the $10k they ask for their high end production Les Pauls, $4k to $5k list for the "standard" ones, and $2k or so for the bargain basement "real" Les Paul models. Even the best audio system cannot bring out consistent quality-related differences in sound from them all.

 

Hiatt's guitar is a Taylor, a very fine instrument although not a costly top shelf piece and readily available. They sound great and play very, very well. And I doubt that I or anyone else could tell a Taylor from the equivalent Martin, Guild or Gibson through even the best audio system.

[gmgraves]

That really surprises me -- well I guess not -- because it is very common knowledge in the classical community that the very best instruments have been played for hundreds of years. My experience is that collectors and investors "loan" their instruments to symphony players. One kid that I had the chance to travel in Europe with had won a contest and was given use of a $200,000+ instrument for 4 years... he took it on trains, subways, backpacking etc. That's what insurance is for

 

My anecdote confirms that. Back in the 1980's I used to frequent a local hi-fi salon (remember those?), occasionally, on Saturdays. This kid (15-17 I'm guessing) also used to show-up there occasionally, as well. I never heard his name (or if I did, I don't recall it), but it turns out that he was a prodigy at the violin as well as being a dyed-in-the-wool audio nut. One Saturday, he showed up at the shop with three violin cases. Of course, all the regulars (including yours, truly) gathered around as the kid laid-out, on a the top of the glass presentation case in the outer foyer of the shop, the three violins he had brought. He explained that one was a Stradivarius, one was an Amati, and the third was a Guarneri del Gesù. We asked the kid what he was doing with these priceless Cremonese violins, he said that they were on loan to him from rich patrons. Now, of course, I can't vouch for the authenticity of all three, but I did see a faded, signed label in one that looked like it might have read "Antonio Stradivari", but beyond that... The owner of the shop knew the boy, and told me that if the kid said that these were real Cremonese 17th and 18th Century violins, then they were! The three violins spread over about 80 years from the mid 1600s to about 1740. The Strad was the newest and the Amati the oldest and the Guarneri del Gesù being in the middle. We all adjourned to the biggest listening room in the shop while the kid demonstrated the difference in sound (and his astounding virtuosity with the instruments) of each violin. I suppose that I was expecting, since the violins all came from one town in the Via Veneto, that all three would exhibit a similar "regional" of perhaps even a "vintage" sound (all being from the same general "era". I couldn't have been more wrong! All three violins sounded wildly different! The Amati sounded the "thinest"; with an almost "threadbare" quality, while the Strad sounded the most rich. The Guarneri del Gesù sounded closest, in overall tonality, to the Strad, but having heard both, one would never mistake one for the other.

 

This experience was a great opportunity for me, because the fact that the same violinist played all three, eliminated the chance that the differences in sound between the three violins were, in any way, due to differences in technique between different violinists. The kid played each violin in the same selection (from Mozart's Violin Concerto #5 in A Major) and in exactly the same way. I must say that I was taken quite aback by the fact that this kid just waltzed into a stereo shop with three priceless violins worth probably at least $200K for the others, and the Strad probably was worth a million+! As Jabbr pointed out, that's obviously what insurance is for! Funny thing, my dad was reluctant to trust me with his Pontiac when I was the same age as that kid. I can't imagine what he would have said if I'd tried to leave the house with not one, but three priceless violins! I sure wouldn't have let me out were I him...