Focusrite REDNet

[jelt2359]

Thanks. Was not really sure but that makes sense.

 

My personal subjective experience based upon replacing a pretty tweaked USB chain that included a REGEN, which I liked a lot, and a MUtec +3 USB , is that the REDNet devices offer a very big improvement over USB in nearly all areas of my listening experience.

 

I have not tried using the Mutec as an external clock but found that letting it re-clock after the D16 was a worthwhile improvement, enough to justify keeping it in my system regardless of it's expense.

 

I think that for audiophiles the direction of AOIP is so new that a lot of folks are curious but trying to sort out hype and speculation from content. I do find the bickering and passive aggressive posts a turn off. If I was new and reading this thread to gain information I might turn away without being able to form an opinion about the benefits... which I think are considerable.

 

I feel the same way about the new direction. What I continue to be most intrigued by is- is USB really the devil, or is one device just better than the other? I'll pretty much stake my entire fortune that, far from going away, USB is just going to get better and better over the next five years as you get more people going from analog to digital- and everyone starts with a computer source. That means USB, and that means all DACs are gonna have this input. But that's my personal reading of the crystal ball...

 

I also echo the appropriate tone. Some threads in other forums sometimes come across in a way that I do not personally enjoy. On CA though the tone of discussion is quite civil, and nobody seems to take things personally- which is always nice. Keep it up guys!

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

Currently, Windows or Mac only compatibility is a show stopper for me. Are there any plans for Linux compatibility ?

 

Lack of wi-fi compatibility for the Via application (which provides the ability to stream sound from a PC connected to the network, and looks fantastic on paper) is also a limiting factor.

[mourip]

I feel the same way about the new direction. What I continue to be most intrigued by is- is USB really the devil, or is one device just better than the other? I'll pretty much stake my entire fortune that, far from going away, USB is just going to get better and better over the next five years as you get more people going from analog to digital- and everyone starts with a computer source. That means USB, and that means all DACs are gonna have this input. But that's my personal reading of the crystal ball...

 

My guess is that USB is not going away because it is easy, wide spread, and most manufacturers feel comfortable with it.

 

... However for folks that want to get the very best SQ I think that it is represents a new level of advancement. I just hope that some of our favorite designers will at least try it!

[Aleg]

Be very cautious with the Rednet / AES67 / Ravenna stuff. It's a different animal altogether and may introduce a host of other issue. I'm all for competing technologies, but what I've seen and used in this area has serious issues. Works fine in a studio, but home is another story.

 

 

Hi Chris

 

Can you enlighten us with your experiences in using RedNet / Ravenna / AES67 gear that made you give such a strong warning?

 

I'm very much interested in the technology but like to learn from experiences by others!

 

You can post your answer in this thread or the other you refered to, I follow both.

 

Cheers

[Aleg]

Currently, Windows or Mac only compatibility is a show stopper for me. Are there any plans for Linux compatibility ?

 

Lack of wi-fi compatibility for the Via application (which provides the ability to stream sound from a PC connected to the network, and looks fantastic on paper) is also a limiting factor.

 

This is Pro-Audio gear, not a DIY or consumer device.

As far as I'm aware Linux is a no-go area in Pro-Audio.

 

W.r.t. the Wifi issue:

"the practical limitations of current wireless technology (802.11a/b/g/n) render reliable performance unachievable. For this reason Dante software such as Virtual Soundcard will not recognize wireless connections for audio data."

[esldude]

Hey I wasn't trying to troll anyone. Nor have I gotten any threads locked on CA. It is my opinion born of experience that sighted sound quality evaluations are unreliable. So I commented on the link to another forum describing what the Mutec clock on the Focusrite Rednet unit did. You feel different fine. I would not have commented further except someone asked what "sighted listening impressions" were.

 

If Rednet AOIP improves sound quality fine, if it simply matches USB also fine as my main interest is the possibilities opened when you can do quality audio over IP networks.

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

This is Pro-Audio gear, not a DIY or consumer device.

As far as I'm aware Linux is a no-go area in Pro-Audio.

 

Today, yes, but perhaps this technology will be used someday for home audio.

 

Linux, by the way, is also used in pro audio.

[Aleg]

Today, yes, but perhaps this technology will be used someday for home audio.

 

Linux, by the way, is also used in pro audio.

 

I believe you about Linux, but never encountered it and find them Pro-people very Apple and Windows minded.

 

Audinate, the manufacturer of the Dante protocol and devices, says Wifi is not inherently impossible, just that the Dante protocol requires real time transport protocol, which cannot be supported reliably on Wifi.

The use of this rttp protocol is required for Dante to achieve clock synchronisation over the network, which again is required to achieve synchronicity of distributed devices over a network, as in recording studios with separated performance and recording rooms or in other large distributed audio systems.

 

When using AOIP in a consumer environment it will be mostly a single point-to-point connection, like the way the Rednet is used by the people here. I suspect the rttp is less of a requirement in those consumer settings, and a Dante-like protocol using rttp might not be strictly necessary for consumer use (though in multi-room applications I can imagine it might be) .

So who knows how an AOIP for consumer use will look like?

 

But at the moment no open/non-proprietary consumer-level protocol exists, while these Pro-Audio protocols do exist and have the AES67 interoperability protocol to enable mix-and-match of different devices and brands and have proven to be reliable and produce excellent sound when using quality devices.

I'm awaiting delivery of a Rednet myself, so I'm very curious to hear for myself how it compares to an optimised USB chain and optimised top quality software player.

[Dev]

Hi Chris

 

Can you enlighten us with your experiences in using RedNet / Ravenna / AES67 gear that made you give such a strong warning?

 

I'm very much interested in the technology but like to learn from experiences by others!

 

You can post your answer in this thread or the other you refered to, I follow both.

 

Cheers

 

I asked the same question on 06-19-2016 (following the post) but yet to receive any reply. I have a feeling that for some reason folks here doesn't want the AES67 to take off, which from several reports from folks (and long term USB users), is clear step above in SQ than all the USB doodles. I will get the Rednet very soon and find out myself and that is the best way to know of any practical limitations or serious issue, if there is one.

 

If you want to know more, the only active forum I am aware of right now is

AUDIO over IP - REDNET 3 & 16 Review. AES67 Sets A New Standard for Computer Audio

[Superdad]

I have a feeling that for some reason folks here doesn't want the AES67 to take off, which from several reports from folks (and long term USB users), is clear step above in SQ than all the USB doodles.

 

 

I for one am all for it taking off--have been for many years. Would love to put Ethernet in every DAC.

 

But RedNet is Focusrite is Dante is Audinate--and that is a proprietary licensed system, based on Audinate's modules that have been around for five years, and is not cheap. The Dante DVS s/w it comes with will not work with hardware products other than those using Dante's Brooklyn modules.

 

AES67/Ravenna has promise, but at present, none of the available OEM Ethernet>I2S input modules come with supported virtual sound card software (needed for Windows, OS X, and Linux) to allow everyone's player apps to see the Ethernet-connected DAC on the network. Only when such is readily available will you begin to see specialist and consumer DAC designers incorporating AES67/Ravenna to offer Ethernet input.

 

Somehow my above simple, factual message repeatedly gets misconstrued as being obstructionist regarding progress towards broader adoption of Ethernet audio. For now, the two Focusrite/RedNet Ethernet>S/PDIF boxes are giving some a taste of what could come--and that is great.

 

And for many others (including myself in my own system) there is this thread's Sonore MicroRendu, offering multiple Ethernet audio modes, including HQ Player and Roon.

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

Good to know we will be reading your feedback as well.

[rgom]

I believe you about Linux, but never encountered it and find them Pro-people very Apple and Windows minded.

 

Audinate, the manufacturer of the Dante protocol and devices, says Wifi is not inherently impossible, just that the Dante protocol requires real time transport protocol, which cannot be supported reliably on Wifi.

The use of this rttp protocol is required for Dante to achieve clock synchronisation over the network, which again is required to achieve synchronicity of distributed devices over a network, as in recording studios with separated performance and recording rooms or in other large distributed audio systems.

 

When using AOIP in a consumer environment it will be mostly a single point-to-point connection, like the way the Rednet is used by the people here. I suspect the rttp is less of a requirement in those consumer settings, and a Dante-like protocol using rttp might not be strictly necessary for consumer use (though in multi-room applications I can imagine it might be) .

So who knows how an AOIP for consumer use will look like?

 

But at the moment no open/non-proprietary consumer-level protocol exists, while these Pro-Audio protocols do exist and have the AES67 interoperability protocol to enable mix-and-match of different devices and brands and have proven to be reliable and produce excellent sound when using quality devices.

I'm awaiting delivery of a Rednet myself, so I'm very curious to hear for myself how it compares to an optimised USB chain and optimised top quality software player.

 

 

Pls. do report your impressions of the RedNet as I am really intrigued by this technology.

I have been quietly following this thread in the background and absorbing all this information about AOIP.

[The Computer Audiophile]

Hi Guys - Some people have asked about the issues I've experienced with AoIP, so I'll try to give a quick example.

 

I had a Ravenna based device for a while. When I first started using it my entire wireless network would stop working. The Ravenna device wasn't even on a wifi network and nothing in the data path was wifi, yet it brought down the wifi network. After several hours of research I figured out Ravenna was flooding the network with packets and I had to enable IGMP snooping on my wifi access points that had this option. I don't expect Joe Sixpack the audiophile to figure out why his wifi goes down when playing music over wired Ethernet. In addition, enabling IGMP snooping didn't fix the issue for another user I know.

 

I also had to replace a seemingly good gigabit Ethernet switch with a managed switch (without needing to change any settings) to get anything to work.

 

Things like this need to be worked out for the home environment if AoIP is going to be viable at home.

 

I really hope AoIP takes off for home audio. Another option is always a good thing.

[earnmyturns]

When using AOIP in a consumer environment it will be mostly a single point-to-point connection, like the way the Rednet is used by the people here. I suspect the rttp is less of a requirement in those consumer settings, and a Dante-like protocol using rttp might not be strictly necessary for consumer use (though in multi-room applications I can imagine it might be) .

So who knows how an AOIP for consumer use will look like?

I've been reading this and related threads with curiosity but also some puzzlement. I've been somewhat familiar with RTP since the early days of IP telecom (which I did some work with back then), and with internet protocols and their Ethernet implementations pretty much since their start. I can't understand the benefits of AES67 over UPnP/DLNA for single-ended consumer applications. In both cases, packet payloads need to be decoded, buffered, and rendered as accurately clocked bit streams by some device for presentation to a DAC. The protocol delivering the packets to the rendering device just needs to take care that packets are not dropped or delayed beyond what the device's buffer can cope with. With those provisos, SQ will only depend on the timing and electrical properties of the connection from the device to the DAC. So, why do we need AES67 for (high-end) consumer use? It's of course possible that pro devices like those from RedNet are just better renderers (better clocks, better electrical properties) than consumer alternatives, but that would not have anything to do with the choice of Ethernet protocol.

[Dev]

Hi Guys - Some people have asked about the issues I've experienced with AoIP, so I'll try to give a quick example.

 

I had a Ravenna based device for a while. When I first started using it my entire wireless network would stop working. The Ravenna device wasn't even on a wifi network and nothing in the data path was wifi, yet it brought down the wifi network. After several hours of research I figured out Ravenna was flooding the network with packets and I had to enable IGMP snooping on my wifi access points that had this option. I don't expect Joe Sixpack the audiophile to figure out why his wifi goes down when playing music over wired Ethernet. In addition, enabling IGMP snooping didn't fix the issue for another user I know.

 

I also had to replace a seemingly good gigabit Ethernet switch with a managed switch (without needing to change any settings) to get anything to work.

 

Things like this need to be worked out for the home environment if AoIP is going to be viable at home.

 

I really hope AoIP takes off for home audio. Another option is always a good thing.

 

Thanks Chris. I agree that there could be small glitches since it wasn't designed for home use but I am surprised that you haven't commented anything on the SQ when things were working for you. Moreover, could you tell us which Revena device/model you used ?

 

Lets say I am able to figure out the networking setup and make it work (there are several folks who has reported the Rednet to be working in their setup) in my home environment and its not a show stopper for me, what other critical issues did you face or is this the only one ?

 

Perhaps you could comment on the SQ as well ?

[Dev]

Folks with working Rednet setup, did you guys also face the same issue Chris reported in post #160 ?

[Clemmaster]

Hi Guys - Some people have asked about the issues I've experienced with AoIP, so I'll try to give a quick example.

 

I had a Ravenna based device for a while. When I first started using it my entire wireless network would stop working. The Ravenna device wasn't even on a wifi network and nothing in the data path was wifi, yet it brought down the wifi network. After several hours of research I figured out Ravenna was flooding the network with packets and I had to enable IGMP snooping on my wifi access points that had this option. I don't expect Joe Sixpack the audiophile to figure out why his wifi goes down when playing music over wired Ethernet. In addition, enabling IGMP snooping didn't fix the issue for another user I know.

 

I also had to replace a seemingly good gigabit Ethernet switch with a managed switch (without needing to change any settings) to get anything to work.

 

Things like this need to be worked out for the home environment if AoIP is going to be viable at home.

 

I really hope AoIP takes off for home audio. Another option is always a good thing.

 

Is the Ravenna setup for multicast streaming?

Can you set it to unicast, instead?

 

I had the same issue with my Rednet 3 flooding my Asus RT-AC56U router's wifi. The problem was that I had a multicast flow enabled on the transmit side (from the Rednet 3 to the whole network) and my router was passing multi-cast packets over to Wifi devices.

 

In the router's manual, there's an option to disable Wifi multi-casting. Alas, the option is not present in the newer firmwares.

 

Disabling that transmit multi-cast from the Rednet device solved the issue. It wasn't used anyway. I set it up as a test and forgot about it.

[gldgate]

Folks with working Rednet setup, did you guys also face the same issue Chris reported in post #160 ?

 

The Rednet has been rock solid in my setup. Only issue was initial setup & configuration was slightly more complicated than I thought. However, most of this was lack of familiarity with Pro Audio gear with more than 2 channels. Once I got the lay of the software and browsed through the on-line documentation I was fine. The problem Chris mentioned was with Ravenna. Maybe the Dante implementation is better?

[gldgate]

I've been reading this and related threads with curiosity but also some puzzlement. I've been somewhat familiar with RTP since the early days of IP telecom (which I did some work with back then), and with internet protocols and their Ethernet implementations pretty much since their start. I can't understand the benefits of AES67 over UPnP/DLNA for single-ended consumer applications. In both cases, packet payloads need to be decoded, buffered, and rendered as accurately clocked bit streams by some device for presentation to a DAC. The protocol delivering the packets to the rendering device just needs to take care that packets are not dropped or delayed beyond what the device's buffer can cope with. With those provisos, SQ will only depend on the timing and electrical properties of the connection from the device to the DAC. So, why do we need AES67 for (high-end) consumer use? It's of course possible that pro devices like those from RedNet are just better renderers (better clocks, better electrical properties) than consumer alternatives, but that would not have anything to do with the choice of Ethernet protocol.

 

My impression of the RedNet D16 has been very positive. Better sq in my system than uRendu or Dual PC. I don't know if that is due to AOIP as a technology or if is due to RedNet implementation or just blind luck that the RedNet system has a musical quality I favor. Regardless, it was a gamble I'm glad I took. As I have stated before, this is Pro Audio Product that is clearly overkill for the majority of home audio users. I'm not advocating mass adoption - just reporting my experience.

[mourip]

Folks with working Rednet setup, did you guys also face the same issue Chris reported in post #160 ?

 

I am using the Focusrite Rednet D16 and it has been rock solid with no issues on those parts of my network that use wireless. I have my PC connected directly to the D16 through the Dante Virtual Soundcard(DVS)and use the second ethernet port of the D16 to connect to my LAN. My music is on the local drive so no NAS involved but I do use RDP to remote the PC and JRiver Remote for playback control. I also am using a Mutec +3 USB to re-clock after the D16. That was a nice improvement also.

 

Regarding sound quality, it is so much better than the tweaked USB I had that I need to resist waxing too poetic about it. For me the system is now refined in a way that brings real magic to the music.

 

My next step is to add another device similar to the D16 to my headphone rig and see if I can just use one PC to play to either/both systems. I am hoping that an enterprising vendor will soon come out with a high quality two channel device that costs a bit less than my D16. Having said that I am sure glad that I did not wait before putting the D16 into my main system.

 

Do not be turned off by those who speculate without ever hearing it or who get stuck on the steep side of the learning curve. There is something real here.

[Dev]

The Rednet has been rock solid in my setup. Only issue was initial setup & configuration was slightly more complicated than I thought. However, most of this was lack of familiarity with Pro Audio gear with more than 2 channels. Once I got the lay of the software and browsed through the on-line documentation I was fine. The problem Chris mentioned was with Ravenna. Maybe the Dante implementation is better?

 

I am using the Focusrite Rednet D16 and it has been rock solid with no issues on those parts of my network that use wireless. I have my PC connected directly to the D16 through the Dante Virtual Soundcard(DVS)and use the second ethernet port of the D16 to connect to my LAN. My music is on the local drive so no NAS involved but I do use RDP to remote the PC and JRiver Remote for playback control. I also am using a Mutec +3 USB to re-clock after the D16. That was a nice improvement also.

 

Regarding sound quality, it is so much better than the tweaked USB I had that I need to resist waxing too poetic about it. For me the system is now refined in a way that brings real magic to the music.

 

My next step is to add another device similar to the D16 to my headphone rig and see if I can just use one PC to play to either/both systems. I am hoping that an enterprising vendor will soon come out with a high quality two channel device that costs a bit less than my D16. Having said that I am sure glad that I did not wait before putting the D16 into my main system.

 

Do not be turned off by those who speculate without ever hearing it or who get stuck on the steep side of the learning curve. There is something real here.

 

Thanks much Gldgate and Mourip - that was my impression as well reading your early reviews and I am glad to hear that the D16 has been rock solid in your system.

[jabbr]

Hi Guys - Some people have asked about the issues I've experienced with AoIP, so I'll try to give a quick example.

 

I had a Ravenna based device for a while. When I first started using it my entire wireless network would stop working. The Ravenna device wasn't even on a wifi network and nothing in the data path was wifi, yet it brought down the wifi network. After several hours of research I figured out Ravenna was flooding the network with packets and I had to enable IGMP snooping on my wifi access points that had this option. I don't expect Joe Sixpack the audiophile to figure out why his wifi goes down when playing music over wired Ethernet. In addition, enabling IGMP snooping didn't fix the issue for another user I know.

 

I also had to replace a seemingly good gigabit Ethernet switch with a managed switch (without needing to change any settings) to get anything to work.

 

Things like this need to be worked out for the home environment if AoIP is going to be viable at home.

 

I really hope AoIP takes off for home audio. Another option is always a good thing.

 

Ouch, yeah Dante/AES67 expects you to do QoS ... my 2p

 

Overkill for home audio. Aside from the networking issues (which can be dealt with) is the lack of a universal i.e. universally compatible plug and play virtual soundcard app which would connect any software to any DAC.

 

That and lack of Ethernet input DACs.

 

Worth it when you are going to convert to USB or SPDIF ... not really particularly if more expensive than the microRendu, milliRendu or number of other devices/NAA etc that can easily accept Ethernet input and USB or SPDIF output. Now if there were open source implementations perhaps it would become more widely adopted but for purely playback purposes, there is no technological advantage over something simple like NAA, or alternatively ASIO/ALSA over ethernet

[Aleg]

Hi Guys - Some people have asked about the issues I've experienced with AoIP, so I'll try to give a quick example.

 

I had a Ravenna based device for a while. When I first started using it my entire wireless network would stop working. The Ravenna device wasn't even on a wifi network and nothing in the data path was wifi, yet it brought down the wifi network. After several hours of research I figured out Ravenna was flooding the network with packets and I had to enable IGMP snooping on my wifi access points that had this option. I don't expect Joe Sixpack the audiophile to figure out why his wifi goes down when playing music over wired Ethernet. In addition, enabling IGMP snooping didn't fix the issue for another user I know.

 

I also had to replace a seemingly good gigabit Ethernet switch with a managed switch (without needing to change any settings) to get anything to work.

 

Things like this need to be worked out for the home environment if AoIP is going to be viable at home.

 

I really hope AoIP takes off for home audio. Another option is always a good thing.

 

Hi Chris

 

Thank you for your reply.

 

Yes AOIP has the possibility to flood your netwerk, but only when it is set to do Multicasting instead of Unicasting. And yes, when doing Multicasting it can bring down the available bandwidth of any attached Wifi-sections of the same subnet. But Multicasting isn't the default setting in the apps that I know, maybe it was in yours. Multicasting is only used in specific situations for large networks.

So the easy solution is to switch of Multicasting. Or, as you found out, if not possible to switch of configure thw IGMP snooping of your switches.

 

So I agree, when using AOIP networking overa LAN/WAN, it does require that you have some advanced knowledge of network managment (Duh ....., doesn't seem to unreasonable ) and it is not just your plug&pray solution.

BUT, as I said in a consumer environment people are using it in a single point-to-point connection, i.e. Computer-->CAT-cable-->RedNet. This doesn't require managed switches, doesn't introduce issues with Multicasting or IGMP snooping.

 

So there is no issue with the AOIP technology as you stated, it is a lack of sufficient knowledge with people dabbling with it.

If you look at the support section of the Audinate/Dante website they give all kinds of introductory videos, documents, FAQs, optimisation guidelines, troubleshooting tips.

It is really easy to obtain the knowledge required if you want to go into the Pro setup (which isn't required as I just said).

And Audinate/Dante also explicitly warns about network flooding when using Multicasting, tells you what it is/how it works and also tells you how to prevent it.

 

So I think at some point in time AOIP technology will come down to the level of 'ordinary Joe', but it is now used only in Pro-environments.

So I agree people should stick to the direct computer-->device setup for now, if they are not prepared/able to dig a little deeper in networking technology (which really isn't all that difficult as they show on the Audinate/Dante website) when using larger setups.

 

But the advantage of the current Dante/Ravenna/AES67 protocols is the interoperability it offers, as opposed to the closed/proprietary developments in current consumer applications.

[Aleg]

Ouch, yeah Dante/AES67 expects you to do QoS ... my 2p

....

 

Not true if you use direct computer-->device connection. See my previous post and posts by others explaining their setup.

 

No, need to frighten people.

But yes, this is a Pro-audio device capable of being used in complex audio networks. But it can be used in simple setup as well.

[Aleg]

...

 

Overkill for home audio. Aside from the networking issues (which can be dealt with) is the lack of a universal i.e. universally compatible plug and play virtual soundcard app which would connect any software to any DAC.

 

That and lack of Ethernet input DACs.

 

....

 

Dante comes with the Dante Virtual SoundCard which is ASIO and WDM capable. wDM with some limitations, but use the Virtual ASIO cable and you're back in business.

So you can use any software with the Dante DVS.

 

The Rednet devices output SPDIF in several connector, so you can connect any SPDIF Coax or AES capable DAC. No need to dabble with USB anymore.

No need for ethernet DACs either, though I think they will come soon enough