Focusrite REDNet

[mourip]

Ok. I am stumped that this tech has not taken off here. I have seen a few posts buried in other threads so I am going to start one dedicated to this wonderful PC to DAC interface.

 

I became interested in it while following a developing thread on HEAD-Fi. It started as a spin-off from a prolific and enthusiastic poster who has done tireless testing and listening of USB to SPDIF devices. As the ball got rolling he came upon a fairly recent but not well covered device called the Focusrite REDNet 3. This is a true AES67 ethernet to SPDIF converter which works in association with a Dante virtual sound card which allows an application to use ASIO to communicate via an ethernet port to another AES67 device which in turn outputs to a DAC.

 

The two most common devices are made by Focusrite and called REDNet3 or REDNet D16. They both do essentially the same thing which is to accept audio over TCPIP, even through a switch, and then output it as SPDIF via RCA or AES or optical connectors. They are not cheap at $1000 and $1600 respectively but that is moot as I will explain in a minute.

 

Focusrite is a Pro Audio company. There are very few companies making AES67 compatible equipment and no audiophile companies that I know of. These devices are capable of processing many channels at once and are overkill for audiophiles. They also top out at 24/192K, have a fixed input rate that must be manually changed as needed, and do not support DSD. This is also moot as I will soon explain.

 

OK. Stay with me. I have been slowly building up my system for about 30 years. I have tried a lot of things. I have always found digital to be bright and somehow fake sounding... at least until this year when I bought a Schitt Yggy DAC and added a Mutec USB converter in front of it. I was pretty happy and thought that now digital has reached or possibly surpassed analog.

 

After reading the thread on HEAD-Fi I decided to take a chance and try a REDNet D16. It has two ethernet inputs and AES and RCA outputs. It replaced a good quality USB cable, a REGEN Amber with HDPlex LPS, Mutec USB converter, and Paul Pang USB card with dedicated LPS. Probably better than $1500 of USB band-aids. The REDNet D16 cost me $1500 from Sweetwater(recommended).

 

It was not exactly plug n' pray. It took several phone calls to get it to work at the 192K rate. I also had to set JRiver to up-sample to 192K to match the D16. Frankly I have never been a fan of up-sampling but I decided to give it a try based upon the enthusiasm of others(understatement) using REDNet.

 

Why am I telling you this? I am now getting the most realistic, non-fatiguing, tonally satisfying sound that I have ever been able to achieve. It is WAY better that my USB system. I will not go further as I do not want to over sell this equipment. I only want to start dialog concerning it and it's possibilities.

 

I really hope that others will give it a try and that at least one audiophile company will take it seriously. My guess is that with some care, pruning down of Pro audio features, and adding automatic sample rate recognition, devices could be made for much less that $1000 or better yet incorporated directly into a DAC.

 

Best,

 

Paul

[Superdad]

Great post. Nicely balanced and clear-eyed. Audio over Ethernet is an area that I have been following closely for years. There are still some limitations--and I am not sold on the overly complex, Layer 3, AES67/Ravenna--but we are getting closer, and I think you will see additional interesting options in the next year.

[jaynyc]

Is there a quality difference between the rednet3 vs the D16? (In terms of being a better digital transport for feeding a DAC)

[esldude]

I have had an interest in this, but lack time currently. Also had an interest in the Dante Via software. All of this results from Audinate software from what I have read. There are some pieces of gear from others. Nothing wrong with Focusrite as I own and use some of their gear quite happily. Still focused on pro studio and recording use so far. I do wish it worked over wifi. My understanding is you must have wired Ethernet so far.

[nfnc]

Thanks, Paul (mourip). I too have been following the head-fi forums.

 

Would like to try but for the lack of Linux support (am using a Melco N1A at the moment).

 

For discussion purposes, how does this differ from the network bridge solutions offered by Lumin/Aurender/Auralic? The uPnP protocol being not as good as AES67?

[One and a half]

To the OP, the Mutec can still be used to provide the clocking between the source and as a Word clock input to the Focusrite..

 

For Dante, don't you need a Dante master as such, or will a driver/app live on a host computer?

[mourip]

Is there a quality difference between the rednet3 vs the D16? (In terms of being a better digital transport for feeding a DAC)

 

As I have only heard the D16 I cannot speak to SQ differences but I believe that the differences are mainly in features and those being mainly for Pro audio.

 

The dual port ethernet on the D16 is nice as it allowed me to connect directly to my PC and still have a port to connect to the LAN. An alternative of course would be to have a dual port NIC in your PC.

 

The other advantage is the AES output connector on the D16.

[mourip]

I do wish it worked over wifi. My understanding is you must have wired Ethernet so far.

 

That is my understanding also although I do not know if the limitation is having wireless anywhere between the PC and the REDNet receiving device or just not having a wireless card on the PC.

 

I have not yet tried placing the PC at a distance across my LAN from the D16 to see if my switches pass the signal through without issues. I am envisioning having one PC and more than one REDnet device. I could then eliminate on PC and associated USB chain from my system. Currently I have a main system and a separate headphone rig.

 

I realize that I could use something like the Micro Rendu for a similar purpose but that leaved me back with USB. It hope someone will compare the two soon.

[mourip]

Thanks, Paul (mourip). I too have been following the head-fi forums.

 

Would like to try but for the lack of Linux support (am using a Melco N1A at the moment).

 

For discussion purposes, how does this differ from the network bridge solutions offered by Lumin/Aurender/Auralic? The uPnP protocol being not as good as AES67?

 

I have not used any of those devices. That would also be a good head to head comparison. In reading on CA I was left with the impression that AES67 might have the edge however. Just theory for me though.

 

All I know is how much better things sounded in my own system compared to the Mutec, which is a great device BTW.

 

I am trying to not over sell and avoid the "Trout Farm Syndrome". Ever been to one when you were a kid? The owner takes you to the pond, tosses in a hand full of corn meal to fish that are starving, and then the pond becomes chaos. You can then catch fish with a bare hook. Have seen this too often with new products on the forums we all love :-)

[mourip]

To the OP, the Mutec can still be used to provide the clocking between the source and as a Word clock input to the Focusrite..

 

For Dante, don't you need a Dante master as such, or will a driver/app live on a host computer?

 

OK. I do not want to sell myself as the expert as I am still on the steep side of this learning curve but I believe that you would need another Focusrite or AES67 device to be the Master according to their scheme. They do make a REDNet PCIe card with dual outputs and the Sweetwater REDNet specialist said that it could act as master. It is also my understanding that the DVS (Dante Virtual Soundcard) cannot act as Master. I am using the DVS which comes as a single license with the D16 and I believe the RN 3.

 

I do not think that the Mutec can be used before the D16 in a serial arrangement. Perhaps it could be used in "parallel" with it via a WC input. Rob on Head-Fi has used a Mutec after the REDNet 3 to reclock and said that it gave a nice SQ improvement.

 

I have another AES cable coming this week and will tryout the Mutec in conjunction with the D16 as a re-clocker.

 

Plenty of room for fresh exploration here!

[gldgate]

I have been following the other thread since it's inception. I ordered a D16 from SweetWater early last week (it was back ordered) but just received notification that the product shipped today. The proliferation of USB "fixers" and NADAC provided the stimulus for me to do some basic research on other audio implementations. Sounds like many others have also been curious.

 

It's been an interesting week. Last Wednesday I received a uRendu and have spent about 20 hours putting it through its paces in RoonReady and HQP NAA mode. While I reserve the right to change my mind, my current assessment is that uRendu has better SQ than my dual PC setup with JPLAY (Using dedicated CAPS Pipeline). Given that the uRendu is about 1/4 the price that is pretty amazing.

 

I hope to start listening to the REDNet this weekend and will provide some initial thoughts between the two devices. I also have a Mutec MC-3 USB+ that I can use as a reclocker. Should be fun.

[Dev]

The uRendu has significantly improved the performance of Yggy along with Roon/HQP (no up-sampling) compared to my dual pc CAPs setup. It would be interesting to see how does the REDNet compares to the the uRendu.

[gldgate]

I also wanted to point out some other reasons why I wanted to try out the REDNet and that is my growing recognition and appreciation of PRO audio devices. The Mutec opened my eyes. It's a great audio "Swiss Army knife" that IMO provides very good value for the $. The more I look at PRO devices (and Companies) the more I like their no-nonsense approach to Audio.

[esldude]

I was interested in the Rednet for its ability to transport audio across a network and control multiple devices in multiple locations.

 

It it well known I also like USB. It hasn't been a problem and provides excellent results for me. Without any heroic endeavours. Seems very strange the issues people say they hear in it. While measurements usually show little to be concerned with. So now people spend sometimes more than their DAC cost to either connect USB with a bunch of other conditioning devices or to avoid using USB. I fear one day all the good DACs will drop USB for a connection and there is nothing wrong with it. Equipment makers would like nothing better than to add another connection that is far more complex and costly if people can be sold on the idea USB is not capable of good sound quality.

[esldude]

I also wanted to point out some other reasons why I wanted to try out the REDNet and that is my growing recognition and appreciation of PRO audio devices. The Mutec opened my eyes. It's a great audio "Swiss Army knife" that IMO provides very good value for the $. The more I look at PRO devices (and Companies) the more I like their no-nonsense approach to Audio.

 

+1

[lmitche]

There lots of moving parts on the networking front. http://www.tomshardware.com/news/multi-gigabit-intel-x550-netgear-m4200,32019.html

[mourip]

I have been following the other thread since it's inception. I ordered a D16 from SweetWater early last week (it was back ordered) but just received notification that the product shipped today. The proliferation of USB "fixers" and NADAC provided the stimulus for me to do some basic research on other audio implementations. Sounds like many others have also been curious.

 

It's been an interesting week. Last Wednesday I received a uRendu and have spent about 20 hours putting it through its paces in RoonReady and HQP NAA mode. While I reserve the right to change my mind, my current assessment is that uRendu has better SQ than my dual PC setup with JPLAY (Using dedicated CAPS Pipeline). Given that the uRendu is about 1/4 the price that is pretty amazing.

 

I hope to start listening to the REDNet this weekend and will provide some initial thoughts between the two devices. I also have a Mutec MC-3 USB+ that I can use as a reclocker. Should be fun.

 

Glad to see interest growing. At the very least we have more choices these days!

 

I though that I would add that with my USB setup I was using Windows Server 2012 in core mode with Audiophile Optimizer. The good news is that I was able to install all of the Dante and REDNet software and drivers in 2012. The remarkable news is that I was previously running OA optimized in Core mode. The improvements in SQ so far with the D16 and DVS are all in GUI mode with OA rolled back. I tried reinstalling OA but it broke something and have not bothered to retry it yet and so am just running in vanilla Windows GUI mode.

 

...So either Audiophile Optimizer is no longer necessary when using DVS to ethernet or I have more improvements to come!

[occamsrazor]

I also wanted to point out some other reasons why I wanted to try out the REDNet and that is my growing recognition and appreciation of PRO audio devices. The Mutec opened my eyes. It's a great audio "Swiss Army knife" that IMO provides very good value for the $. The more I look at PRO devices (and Companies) the more I like their no-nonsense approach to Audio.

 

 

+2... I'm also becoming more interested in the "pro” devices, and likewise have been closely following the Head-Fi threads.

 

The main area I think where pro hardware falls behind compared to "audiophile" devices is on the higher rates and for DSD. Many audiophile DACs these days, even relatively cheap ones, can play DXD and DSD, whereas pro devices tend to max out at 192khz PCM, probably because of the limitations of SPDIF and AES. Whether that matters to you of course is another question that I won’t go into, but many on this forum seems to find significant benefit in upsampling via software apps like HQP or A+, and the pro hardware can remove those options. In my mind it’s a shame that you have to choose one or the other, and there are no affordable options to have both at the same time, especially as gigabit ethernet can cope with vastly higher data rates than any of this so transmission speed is a non-issue.

 

Apart from Dante/Rednet, the best current implementation seems to me to be the Ravenna hardware by Merging such as the NADAC…. but that’s another league price-wise.

 

For Dante the Rednet 3 seems the best option at the moment price-wise, but it’s also way overkill in terms of size and functionality. I’d still love to see a small 2-channel Rednet unit based on the Brooklyn II card with SPDIF, AES & i2s output… the size of their AM2.

 

Alternatively I’d like to see more DACs with inbuilt Dante although I guess it’s currently a niche market and the only one that comes close (apart from multi-channel “interfaces”) is the Burl B2 Bomber DAC.

[Gonzbull]

Dante has been pretty popular in Pro circles recently. Thunderbolt as well I have to say.

A recent entry to the Hi-Fi market from a Pro Audio company is the RME ADI-Pro 2 which I'm going to get to replace my current DAC.

IMHO REDNet seems a bit overkill for the majority.

[Albrecht]

I have been following the other thread since it's inception. I ordered a D16 from SweetWater early last week (it was back ordered) but just received notification that the product shipped today. The proliferation of USB "fixers" and NADAC provided the stimulus for me to do some basic research on other audio implementations. Sounds like many others have also been curious.

 

It's been an interesting week. Last Wednesday I received a uRendu and have spent about 20 hours putting it through its paces in RoonReady and HQP NAA mode. While I reserve the right to change my mind, my current assessment is that uRendu has better SQ than my dual PC setup with JPLAY (Using dedicated CAPS Pipeline). Given that the uRendu is about 1/4 the price that is pretty amazing.

 

I hope to start listening to the REDNet this weekend and will provide some initial thoughts between the two devices. I also have a Mutec MC-3 USB+ that I can use as a reclocker. Should be fun.

 

Very much looking forward to reading about your impressions

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

Very much looking forward to reading about your impressions

 

+1. gldgate - Please let us know what you are using downstream from the microRendu.

[gldgate]

+1. gldgate - Please let us know what you are using downstream from the microRendu.

 

Right now my set up is uRendu>short Curious Cable Linc >Mutec USB MC-3 + USB >Yggy. Connection from Mutec to Yggy is via Benchmark AES cables. uRendu Power Supply is currently iFi but I also have and can try (a) el cheapo LPS, (b) HD Plex and © Bakoon Battery.

 

Rest of main system is currently Shindo Vosne-Romanee Preamp, Shindo Haut Brion Amp, and Tonian Labs Classic 12 speakers (PHY-HP Drivers).

 

Using uRendu in HQP NAA mode (pass thru - no upsampling) with Roon.

[jaynyc]

I hope to start listening to the REDNet this weekend and will provide some initial thoughts between the two devices. I also have a Mutec MC-3 USB+ that I can use as a reclocker. Should be fun.

 

#subscribe #cantwaittoreadthis

[Rexp]

Ok. I am stumped that this tech has not taken off here. I have seen a few posts buried in other threads so I am going to start one dedicated to this wonderful PC to DAC interface.

 

I became interested in it while following a developing thread on HEAD-Fi. It started as a spin-off from a prolific and enthusiastic poster who has done tireless testing and listening of USB to SPDIF devices. As the ball got rolling he came upon a fairly recent but not well covered device called the Focusrite REDNet 3. This is a true AES67 ethernet to SPDIF converter which works in association with a Dante virtual sound card which allows an application to use ASIO to communicate via an ethernet port to another AES67 device which in turn outputs to a DAC.

 

The two most common devices are made by Focusrite and called REDNet3 or REDNet D16. They both do essentially the same thing which is to accept audio over TCPIP, even through a switch, and then output it as SPDIF via RCA or AES or optical connectors. They are not cheap at $1000 and $1600 respectively but that is moot as I will explain in a minute.

 

Focusrite is a Pro Audio company. There are very few companies making AES67 compatible equipment and no audiophile companies that I know of. These devices are capable of processing many channels at once and are overkill for audiophiles. They also top out at 24/192K, have a fixed input rate that must be manually changed as needed, and do not support DSD. This is also moot as I will soon explain.

 

OK. Stay with me. I have been slowly building up my system for about 30 years. I have tried a lot of things. I have always found digital to be bright and somehow fake sounding... at least until this year when I bought a Schitt Yggy DAC and added a Mutec USB converter in front of it. I was pretty happy and thought that now digital has reached or possibly surpassed analog.

 

After reading the thread on HEAD-Fi I decided to take a chance and try a REDNet D16. It has two ethernet inputs and AES and RCA outputs. It replaced a good quality USB cable, a REGEN Amber with HDPlex LPS, Mutec USB converter, and Paul Pang USB card with dedicated LPS. Probably better than $1500 of USB band-aids. The REDNet D16 cost me $1500 from Sweetwater(recommended).

 

It was not exactly plug n' pray. It took several phone calls to get it to work at the 192K rate. I also had to set JRiver to up-sample to 192K to match the D16. Frankly I have never been a fan of up-sampling but I decided to give it a try based upon the enthusiasm of others(understatement) using REDNet.

 

Why am I telling you this? I am now getting the most realistic, non-fatiguing, tonally satisfying sound that I have ever been able to achieve. It is WAY better that my USB system. I will not go further as I do not want to over sell this equipment. I only want to start dialog concerning it and it's possibilities.

 

I really hope that others will give it a try and that at least one audiophile company will take it seriously. My guess is that with some care, pruning down of Pro audio features, and adding automatic sample rate recognition, devices could be made for much less that $1000 or better yet incorporated directly into a DAC.

 

Best,

 

Paul

Very interesting, have you tried redbook without upsampling, maybe it's the upsampling that's making the improvement? TIA!

[thisisvv]

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