Ayre Acoustics QX-5 Twenty – The Digital Hub

[ChrisG]

I also believe that Ethernet is superior, and since I want also to use ROON, I am investigating purchasing a streaming DAC with Roon support (Ayre QX-5, Brinkmann Nyquist, ...) rather than a simple USB DAC.

 

But... I do not have ethernet cable coming to my listening room. Only Wifi reach my DAC ! so while WiFi may be OK for streaming Tidal and for iPAD connection, I would rather have an ethernet cable connection between my music storage and my Streaming DAC.

 

So I need to have the Music server (or Ethernet HD ? ) in the same room connected directly by an ethernet cable to my Streaming DAC ? Something like a MELCO directly connected to the QX-5 through a plain ethernet cable ?

 

This could be OK IF.... Melco could run as a ROON Server, But alas it is not the case :-(

 

So, what is the option for me to use the QX-5 as a ROON endpoint without having to use a NAS somewhere on my network ? Some sort of Melco that will be able to be also a ROON Server ?

 

If you can't run an Ethernet line to your listening room, you might try Ethernet over power line. I don't have any experience with it, but you can start learning about it here 8 Things About Powerline Adapters You Need to Know First

[barrows]

I also believe that Ethernet is superior, and since I want also to use ROON, I am investigating purchasing a streaming DAC with Roon support (Ayre QX-5, Brinkmann Nyquist, ...) rather than a simple USB DAC.

 

But... I do not have ethernet cable coming to my listening room. Only Wifi reach my DAC ! so while WiFi may be OK for streaming Tidal and for iPAD connection, I would rather have an ethernet cable connection between my music storage and my Streaming DAC.

 

So I need to have the Music server (or Ethernet HD ? ) in the same room connected directly by an ethernet cable to my Streaming DAC ? Something like a MELCO directly connected to the QX-5 through a plain ethernet cable ?

 

This could be OK IF.... Melco could run as a ROON Server, But alas it is not the case :-(

 

So, what is the option for me to use the QX-5 as a ROON endpoint without having to use a NAS somewhere on my network ? Some sort of Melco that will be able to be also a ROON Server ?

 

Can you get creative and run the required Ethernet cabling on the exterior of your home, this is what I do. I would recommend against both WiFi and Ethernet over power line if sound quality is important to you. You will need some kind of computer on your network to run ROON, there is no reason why that computer cannot both run ROON and act as your file storage, as long as it has adequate hard drive storage onboard.

[ctsooner]

Can you get creative and run the required Ethernet cabling on the exterior of your home, this is what I do. I would recommend against both WiFi and Ethernet over power line if sound quality is important to you. You will need some kind of computer on your network to run ROON, there is no reason why that computer cannot both run ROON and act as your file storage, as long as it has adequate hard drive storage onboard.

 

I agree with most of what you are saying. You are dead on in that you must have a computer running Roon. A NUC or if you don't have a storage deal already, just use a good NAS with Roon running in a smaller SSD in one of the drives. As was said, you have to have a direct ethernet connection if you want to run Roon. If not, them Melco is the way to go for sure. I'm going to pay an electrician to run 5 optical cables from the office through my attic and drop them down the wall of my listen room. I'm doing the fiber optic conversion and those ultra thin cables are easy to run for them as long as they don't have any sharp bends in them. It's inexpensive for the parts, especially when talking about the price of the DACs we are discussing. It will only cost me a couple of hundred for the labor and it will all be done to code. and finished in the wall so when I sell it will look good.

[cjf]

My apologies if I missed it earlier but if someone who owns this device could comment, it would be appreciated. How is the volume control of this device while running direct to amp compared to a "very good" traditional PreAmp?

 

I've long been a believer of traditional PreAmp being best in almost all cases but still have a dream of one day finding a DAC who's volume control is uncompromising enough to allow me to lose the PreAmp.

 

Is this such a device?

[ctsooner]

A very good pre will always be better than any DAC on the market right now. I have yet to hear a DAC's volume control running direct sound as good. My old DAC the Empirical Audio DACs can do directly and sound as good, but only if you spend the extra 4 k or so I think it is, to get their special transformers.

 

I have an Ayre AX5 Twenty and tried it in the bypass mode and used the digital on the QX5 and it wasn't close to me in my system. I don't know anyone who's done it who has said it sounds as good.

 

 

My apologies if I missed it earlier but if someone who owns this device could comment, it would be appreciated. How is the volume control of this device while running direct to amp compared to a "very good" traditional PreAmp?

 

I've long been a believer of traditional PreAmp being best in almost all cases but still have a dream of one day finding a DAC who's volume control is uncompromising enough to allow me to lose the PreAmp.

 

Is this such a device?

[Blackstone]

I agree with CT on this point. The QX-5 is excellent running straight into a power amp, no question. I did end up selling off a really good pre when I got the QX-5. However, when testing new amps I found the absolute best results were with the KX-5 or AX-5 and QX-5 in DAC mode.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

[ctsooner]

We spoke about this a few weeks ago. To me it's not even close. Spoke with the Pres of another named manufacturer yesterday about this topic. He said the same thing about their DAC. Said that you must have a very good preamp or you want get what you want out of any DAC. He said he didn't know what the future really holds in this regard

[Ultrarunner]

I sold my Ayre DX-5 DSD yesterday. The next few weeks will be a real exercise in patience while I wait for Ayre to build my QX-5. I'm thinking of picking up an Audioquest Dragonfly as a temporary DAC. Hopefully, fed by the microRendu, I'll get sound I can live with for a while. Later I can use it with my iPhone.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Computer Audiophile

[ctsooner]

I sold my Ayre DX-5 DSD yesterday. The next few weeks will be a real exercise in patience while I wait for Ayre to build my QX-5. I'm thinking of picking up an Audioquest Dragonfly as a temporary DAC. Hopefully, fed by the microRendu, I'll get sound I can live with for a while. Later I can use it with my iPhone.

 

Sent from my iPad using Computer Audiophile

 

Congrats. Happy for you. I have the AQ Red that I use and love it. If I had the extra cash and could handle the size, the Mojo is a much better portable DAC, but that Red is unreal for the money. Drives the Big Audeze's too as I was using it yesterday to see if it could.

[barrows]

We spoke about this a few weeks ago. To me it's not even close. Spoke with the Pres of another named manufacturer yesterday about this topic. He said the same thing about their DAC. Said that you must have a very good preamp or you want get what you want out of any DAC. He said he didn't know what the future really holds in this regard

 

Such statements are audiophiles myths. There is no technical reason why inserting an extra (and unnecessary) component into the chain will improve performance. Additionally, there is no method of volume control which produces less distortion than a digital volume control when implemented correctly.

Manufacturers who sell preamps are not the best source to trust for actual facts on this matter. Certainly, such a manufacturer can build their DAC such that it sounds better into their preamp, but this does not mean that using a preamp is always better!

 

Ask yourself: how could a preamp make a system better versus no preamp at all? Every added component in the signal path adds distortion/noise, including, even the very best, preamps. By removing a preamp you remove the following components: at least 1 interconnect, including two contact based connections, at least a single active stage, often two, with transistors (or tubes), resistors, often capacitors, input switching (all switches add distortion/noise) and usually a resistor based volume control device. Every single one of these components adds distortion/noise.

 

If a manufacturer knows how to design a good gain (or in some cases buffer) stage for their preamp, they know how to put that Exact Same Circuit into the output of their DAC, and that circuit is what drives the interconnect-input stage of the amp.

 

Now I am not saying that every DAC will perform better when run direct to amp, as some DACs have inadequate output drive to drive the input stage of some amps at their best-but this does not mean that running a preamp is Always better! It is quite easy to build the output stage of the DAC such that it drives the input stage of the amp at its best: just use the same circuit used in the output of the preamp!

 

Yes, i have tested this with many DACs, and some are not up to the task, but many are as well, and making blanket statements that using a preamp is always better is misleading and technically incorrect as well.

[ctsooner]

Well I guess we will disagree. I have never heard direct sound better and that is with some of the most expensive DAC's in the world. It's not just manufacturer's it's many many others who have done this with many DAC's. Some post on this thread. The closest I've heard is with the Empirical Audio DAC and Steve Nugents Final Drive transformers. As for mixing digital with analog, there is a ton of noise to concern yourself with as well as power supply's. In order to separate those, you need separate power supplies and most probably another case to keep them away from each other. I guess that's what a preamp really is for.

 

In the end, it doesn't matter as we are talking about right now and as of right now what DAC do you recommend that sounds better driving an amp directly?

 

Also, I doubt that the folks I speak with would lie to me or mislead to try and sell another box to us all. I have a better relationship with most than that. Yes they are all in the business to make money, but most of the high end guys I speak with on a fairly regular basis are very very open about things, because they trust me and know I'm not sharing most on a board. I don't blame you for being skeptical and I even posted earlier that we 'don't know what the future holds'. I do know a couple of folks who are trying really hard to make their DAC's volume control sound as good as a top preamp in the system, so I'm sure we could see it someday.

 

Such statements are audiophiles myths. There is no technical reason why inserting an extra (and unnecessary) component into the chain will improve performance. Additionally, there is no method of volume control which produces less distortion than a digital volume control when implemented correctly.

Manufacturers who sell preamps are not the best source to trust for actual facts on this matter. Certainly, such a manufacturer can build their DAC such that it sounds better into their preamp, but this does not mean that using a preamp is always better!

 

Ask yourself: how could a preamp make a system better versus no preamp at all? Every added component in the signal path adds distortion/noise, including, even the very best, preamps. By removing a preamp you remove the following components: at least 1 interconnect, including two contact based connections, at least a single active stage, often two, with transistors (or tubes), resistors, often capacitors, input switching (all switches add distortion/noise) and usually a resistor based volume control device. Every single one of these components adds distortion/noise.

 

If a manufacturer knows how to design a good gain (or in some cases buffer) stage for their preamp, they know how to put that Exact Same Circuit into the output of their DAC, and that circuit is what drives the interconnect-input stage of the amp.

 

Now I am not saying that every DAC will perform better when run direct to amp, as some DACs have inadequate output drive to drive the input stage of some amps at their best-but this does not mean that running a preamp is Always better! It is quite easy to build the output stage of the DAC such that it drives the input stage of the amp at its best: just use the same circuit used in the output of the preamp!

 

Yes, i have tested this with many DACs, and some are not up to the task, but many are as well, and making blanket statements that using a preamp is always better is misleading and technically incorrect as well.

[barrows]

CT: How do you think a manufacturer can make their preamp sound better? Technically speaking? No matter what, a DAC is always both a digital and analogue component at once, whether it drives an amp directly or not, so you always have the "problem" of a mixed signal device handling both analogue and digital duties.

 

Indeed, you do want to have separate power supplies in DAC, often the more separate supplies the better, and the best DACs have separate supplies. Noise is a cumulative problem; a preamp can only add noise to the signal, it cannot reduce it.

 

It is very frustrating to hear audiophiles "believing" these ridiculous myths, which have no basis in the technical reality of the situation.

 

All the amplifier "knows" is what the signal feeding it is like; if one uses the same (analogue) circuit at the output of the DAC which used at the output of the preamp, the amp will see exactly the same signal, minus the additional no/distortion added by the preamp.

 

I will not discuss this any further, but I suggest that you educate yourself a bit on the technical details of audio circuitry before believing myths like this, and making misleading blanket statements.

 

I am not "skeptical", I know what I am talking about as an audiophile for 40 years, and working in the industry for many years as well.

[ctsooner]

listening must be my myth. Please share with all of us all those better sounding DAC volume controls that you are speaking about. You can't because most folks feel that right now there aren't any. Doesn't matter about technical stuff at all, because for whatever reason the companies haven't done it yet. Maybe it's because in order to boost the signal properly, it's more than just using a volume control. maybe it's not worth it to install a real preamp into a DAC box just to save a few dollars and still not get sound that's as good as using a good preamp. I'm talking about a preamp that is a very good one, not just an inexpensive pre.

 

I'm glad that you know more than all of us and can call what we hear a myth. I think that's the part that I take offense to. It's reality AS OF TODAY in audio. Again, please share the DAC's that you know of that sound better to YOU driving directly. I even shared ONE that can, but you are still adding about 3k worth of transformers that are separate from the DAC.

 

 

CT: How do you think a manufacturer can make their preamp sound better? Technically speaking? No matter what, a DAC is always both a digital and analogue component at once, whether it drives an amp directly or not, so you always have the "problem" of a mixed signal device handling both analogue and digital duties.

 

Indeed, you do want to have separate power supplies in DAC, often the more separate supplies the better, and the best DACs have separate supplies. Noise is a cumulative problem; a preamp can only add noise to the signal, it cannot reduce it.

 

It is very frustrating to hear audiophiles "believing" these ridiculous myths, which have no basis in the technical reality of the situation.

 

All the amplifier "knows" is what the signal feeding it is like; if one uses the same (analogue) circuit at the output of the DAC which used at the output of the preamp, the amp will see exactly the same signal, minus the additional no/distortion added by the preamp.

 

I will not discuss this any further, but I suggest that you educate yourself a bit on the technical details of audio circuitry before believing myths like this, and making misleading blanket statements.

[audio.bill]

Getting back on the topic of the Ayre QX-5 Twenty, I have what may be a stupid question which I haven't seen directly addressed. Since it's being billed as a "digital hub" can you simply connect an external hard drive to it and access music files for playback, or must you use a PC with appropriate software or another renderer/server in order to play digital files with the QX-5? TIA for sharing your knowledge about this most intriguing new DAC.

[ctsooner]

I'll ask, but I know you can just hook up the thumb drive or a NAS or Server. If it takes just a thumb drive, why wouldn't it use just a hard drive filled as long as the format works with it. I use MControl to run it via my phone or pad and it's not a bad interface with music on my phone, Tidal streaming and anything else on my network. I want to eventually incorporate Roon though.

Getting back on the topic of the Ayre QX-5 Twenty, I have what may be a stupid question which I haven't seen directly addressed. Since it's being billed as a "digital hub" can you simply connect an external hard drive to it and access music files for playback, or must you use a PC with appropriate software or another renderer/server in order to play digital files with the QX-5? TIA for sharing your knowledge about this most intriguing new DAC.

[audio.bill]

I'll ask, but I know you can just hook up the thumb drive or a NAS or Server. If it takes just a thumb drive, why wouldn't it use just a hard drive filled as long as the format works with it. I use MControl to run it via my phone or pad and it's not a bad interface with music on my phone, Tidal streaming and anything else on my network. I want to eventually incorporate Roon though.

I would also think as long as it provides some way to view and select the files that it should be able to do so, but would greatly appreciate your checking on it since you apparently have a great relationship with Ayre and/or your dealer. I could see some potential benefit in avoiding additional noise created by a laptop if you can simply connect an external USB drive directly!

[ctsooner]

Actually Bill, they all hate me, lol. I've got all the gear for the fiber optic conversion coming and am switching my internet to very fact Xfinity. I'll then hook up my Mac Mini in the office with the switch, router and modem and use Roon if I can. I'll just use a hard drive off the Mac Mini. By doing this the extra noise will be taken off the line. I'm setting it up to run optical conversation to the Mac Mini too I believe. I have someone helping me out on all of this, lol. I'll also have a separate run for my Apple TV to keep that line clean too..

 

I would also think as long as it provides some way to view and select the files that it should be able to do so, but would greatly appreciate your checking on it since you apparently have a great relationship with Ayre and/or your dealer. I could see some potential benefit in avoiding additional noise created by a laptop if you can simply connect an external USB drive directly!

[Ultrarunner]

I can't imagine Ayre could build something like the KX-R Twenty preamp into the QX-5. It would be way too expensive and too large. And the noise of the digital section would pollute the preamp section. I would love to simplify life by eliminating my KX-R but I can't see that happening. I remember John Atkinson mused along the lines of Barrows, but in practice he found the addition of a good preamp like Ayre's did improve the sound over no preamp.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Computer Audiophile

[Audio]

I can't imagine Ayre could build something like the KX-R Twenty preamp into the QX-5. It would be way too expensive and too large. And the noise of the digital section would pollute the preamp section. I would love to simplify life by eliminating my KX-R but I can't see that happening. I remember John Atkinson mused along the lines of Barrows, but in practice he found the addition of a good preamp like Ayre's did improve the sound over no preamp.

Sent from my iPad using Computer Audiophile

 

I heard from Ayre that they will do the QX-5, DAC for the 5 series first and then they will do one for the -R series, QX-R?

 

Why listening through the Pre-Amp is better? Well, it is difficult to "divide" the digital data....you will have error.

 

That is why it is best to listen to the QX-5 with the KX-R. The QX-5 should be set for Pre-Amp mode , that is, it will output 100% without attenuation....without digital attenuation errors.

 

For the Ayre Pre-Amp, the signal never pass through any attenuation. The gain of the pre-amp is selected by a bank of resistors which set the gain of the pre-amp stage. The analog signal pass through the circuitry without encountering the components that set the gain which means the signal is never "divided".

 

(Audio)

[Ultrarunner]

I heard from Ayre that they will do the QX-5, DAC for the 5 series first and then they will do one for the -R series, QX-R?

(Audio)

 

Well, a QX-R would certainly match my MX-R's and KX-R nicely. But it will probably be a long wait and I'm ready for an upgrade now. If a QX-R does come out I can trade up (if I can afford it).

[Vangelis]

Getting back on the topic of the Ayre QX-5 Twenty, I have what may be a stupid question which I haven't seen directly addressed. Since it's being billed as a "digital hub" can you simply connect an external hard drive to it and access music files for playback, or must you use a PC with appropriate software or another renderer/server in order to play digital files with the QX-5? TIA for sharing your knowledge about this most intriguing new DAC.

 

You can not connect a hard drive directly to the QX-5 and source your music files. I pulled my computer out of my listening room and simplified things to great effect with a NAS. Here is what I did. My music files simply come from my Synology DS 916 NAS via Ethernet cable to my Apple Extreme router then onto the QX-5's Ethernet input. Initially you need to use you computer to configure and set up the NAS and install MinimServer software and your music files into the NAS. Synology's DSM software makes this task relatively easy to accomplish. Lastly you need a way to control and access your library and a iPad, iPhone or Android-based device work fine. The Mcontrol app that Ayre developed for QX-5 works perfect as that UpnP control point. Once you put it all together you can throw your computer out of your listening room. It's extremely important to get the right ethernet cables or you may, as I was initially, not thrilled with the results. After I replaced my already premium ethernet cable's with Transparent Audio I was very happy.

[ctsooner]

Thanks for sharing. That's what I was told last night by Ayre. The biggest thing IRT the cable is to use a Cat 8 if possible and a Cat 7 at min. I can't wait for my fiber optical conversion stuff to get here and then to call Xfinity today to get better internet lol

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

[audio.bill]

Thank you Vangelis! I knew you could access files via NAS but hoped you could alternatively use a directly connected USB hard drive, but apparently not. Thanks also to ctsooner for checking with Ayre.

[ctsooner]

Thank you Vangelis! I knew you could access files via NAS but hoped you could alternatively use a directly connected USB hard drive, but apparently not. Thanks also to ctsooner for checking with Ayre.

 

They said that basically a spinning disk or SSD needs a computer, but somehow the thumb drive is noticed. Wish knew digital like you guys, lol.

[Blackstone]

It might have to do with SSD and HDDs being so much bigger in terms of partition size. My car stereo (Burmeister) will take thumb drives but you can't rig a HDD.

 

As for networking, dealer told me the best result was using a ethernet filtering type device and the Transparent ethernet cable into the DAC. If I did ethernet I would get the Transparent for sure. I heard it at the original demo.

 

As for volume control, let me put it this way. I heard the entire 5 series. First we went straight to VX-5 from my QX-5. It was good. Then we put QX-5 in DAC mode and hooked up the KX-5 pre. It wasn't even close.

 

Use your ears.

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile