HQP vs. Vinyl Reassessment

[davide256]

"Like you, I have no real technical knowledge, so I posted the words of a real, HIGHLY RESPECTED, digital engineer."

 

OK. But what if my HIGHLY RESPECTED, digital engineer has a different opinion than your HIGHLY RESPECTED, digital engineer? Who gets to be right then? Maybe you should write to Stereophile and see if they can tell you what to think. Or maybe check to see which one of our HIGHLY RESPECTED, digital engineer's has the highest letter ratings in the recommended components list.

 

I wouldn't put Stereophile on my list of trusted publications for current audiophile knowledge... they are a bit too conservative on change

[Kimo]

I think we can safely assume that Sal doesn't like the sound of vinyl, and prefers going fast and straight on his bike, to high speed turns.

[Sal1950]

I think we can safely assume that Sal doesn't like the sound of vinyl, and prefers going fast and straight on his bike, to high speed turns.

 

You can't do a high speed anything on a 250cc jap crap dirt bike, all you get is dirty.

[Sal1950]

Never send a sidecar to do a dump truck’s job.

You know constantly trying to insult me in any way you can think of is only making you look small and shows nothing about your knowledge (or lack of it actually) as an audiophile. But have your fun, "I won't crawl into "posters gutter" with you, you're only a troll. A shame our forum software doesn't have a ignore button but I will just no longer pay any attention to you posts and will never reply to you again.

In a battle of wit you really came unarmed.

God Bless your little heart.

[esldude]

snip........

I looked around a bit and found this link from which I l learned or relearned some of the necessary tricks to master for a vinyl pressing. No audiophile politics, just one engineer passing along some tricks to deal with vinyls mechanical problems in a simple laymans language to other guys that may be new to vinyl in these resurgent days, written 9-2011 ugh.

Short and very interesting read.

 

Mixing for Vinyl: Don't Fall for These Traps

 

Please guys why the personal back and forth. Helps nothing.

 

Now Sal's link about vinyl, that is a hell of a good short summary of some of the deficiencies of vinyl in terms of fidelity. You can prefer vinyl or not. No wrong about one's preference. What is in that article are simple facts about limits of vinyl as it is usually done.

[kumakuma]

A shame our forum software doesn't have a ignore button but I will just no longer pay any attention to you posts and will never reply to you again.

 

There is an ignore list. Click on the user's name to visit their profile page then click on the "Add to Ignore List" link.

[CR250]

You can't do a high speed anything on a 250cc jap crap dirt bike, all you get is dirty.

 

For the first time, you're finally right about something. You know the difference between a dirt bike and a street bike. The only thing I would add is that a motorcycle will go much faster with me on it because of the power to weight ratio. But well done and keep it up.

[Sal1950]

There is an ignore list. Click on the user's name to visit their profile page then click on the "Add to Ignore List" link.

Done, thank you! I never seen that route before.

[NOMBEDES]

Why stop there?

 

Why not shut down Computer Audiophile, since you have completely and definitively determined for the rest of us that digital is far inferior, despite the numerous limitations imposed by the vinyl medium (mono bass below 100Hz, limited dynamic range equivalent to 12 bits, snap, crackle, pop, wow, flutter, coloration, distortion, etc).

 

Thanks for saving the whole website from itself!

 

 

 

Great idea. "Computer Audiophile" should be shut down.

 

I suggest Digital Audiophile as the new name.

[JBNY]

Since we seem to be more on topic I would love to chime in on this thread.

 

 

I really enjoy my analog setup. For those times when I really want to relax, I so enjoy putting on a record and sitting back on the couch with a nice drink in hand. For me my vinyl setup is probably when I get the most enjoyment out of my setup. I have about 800 LPs, and for the most part they are all well cared for. To me and anyone I have ever had over, the vinyl setup sounds incredible. Pops, ticks and noise are little to none when properly cleaned and played back. I have had many, many self proclaimed audiophiles over to my house. Pretty much all of them always comment how they wished that digital audio sounds as good as my analog rig. Generally at that point I will stop and tell them it does, the mastering is just different now. I will then proceed to play a rip of my vinyl rig on the digital setup for them. It sounds exactly like what they were just listening to. I have even made a recording in front of them letting them first listen to the vinyl version and then pop the SD card into my PC player and let them listen to the digitized 24/96 recording, it sounds exactly the same.

 

 

So then the discussion really starts. How is that possible that the digital system is capable of everything the analog setup is, but the digital files almost never live up to their capabilities? I really feel it comes down to how things are mastered now. Those 60's and 70's LPs have such a lush sound that so many of us enjoy. But the engineers really worked to achieve a particular sound back then, and now they work to make it sound modern/different, a lot of us take it as worse but it is just how they decided to master it.

 

 

I think that if more people, especially those with a very good vinyl setup, knew how to properly record and playback vinyl, a lot of this endless debate on good sound from digital would go away. We could then see that the digital setups we have are more than capable of producing fantastic sound. The same thing can be said for properly learning how to down sample hires recordings. Once you can listen to the same master in many different formats we soon realize that it is not the resolution that is giving you such great sound but rather the master.

[firedog]

Since we seem to be more on topic I would love to chime in on this thread.

 

 

I really enjoy my analog setup. For those times when I really want to relax, I so enjoy putting on a record and sitting back on the couch with a nice drink in hand. For me my vinyl setup is probably when I get the most enjoyment out of my setup. I have about 800 LPs, and for the most part they are all well cared for. To me and anyone I have ever had over, the vinyl setup sounds incredible. Pops, ticks and noise are little to none when properly cleaned and played back. I have had many, many self proclaimed audiophiles over to my house. Pretty much all of them always comment how they wished that digital audio sounds as good as my analog rig. Generally at that point I will stop and tell them it does, the mastering is just different now. I will then proceed to play a rip of my vinyl rig on the digital setup for them. It sounds exactly like what they were just listening to. I have even made a recording in front of them letting them first listen to the vinyl version and then pop the SD card into my PC player and let them listen to the digitized 24/96 recording, it sounds exactly the same.

 

 

So then the discussion really starts. How is that possible that the digital system is capable of everything the analog setup is, but the digital files almost never live up to their capabilities? I really feel it comes down to how things are mastered now. Those 60's and 70's LPs have such a lush sound that so many of us enjoy. But the engineers really worked to achieve a particular sound back then, and now they work to make it sound modern/different, a lot of us take it as worse but it is just how they decided to master it.

 

 

I think that if more people, especially those with a very good vinyl setup, knew how to properly record and playback vinyl, a lot of this endless debate on good sound from digital would go away. We could then see that the digital setups we have are more than capable of producing fantastic sound. The same thing can be said for properly learning how to down sample hires recordings. Once you can listen to the same master in many different formats we soon realize that it is not the resolution that is giving you such great sound but rather the master.

 

I agree that a good digital rip, played back on the same system, is indistinguishable from the vinyl playback. But I disagree with your conclusion, as there are many well mastered, spectacular souding digital recordings being made today. But unfortunately usually not in the most popular types of music - rock, country, hip-hop/rap and their variants. The really outstanding recordings are usually made in classical, jazz, and various world/folk musics.

 

Today most vinyl releases are made from digital masters, not analog ones. And some people still prefer the sound of a vinyl pressing of a digital master to the actual digital playback of the digital file, which in some cases IS the master (or at leasat a perfect copy of it). So why do many prefer vinyl?

 

My answer is just that the vinyl itself imparts a sound that many prefer. Just like tape imparts a type of sound. The "sound of digital" isn't what is turning them off, because we hear that a digital rip can perfectly reproduce that "vinyl sound".

 

The exception to your scenario are those of us who tend to prefer the sound of digital in most cases.

[JBNY]

I agree that a good digital rip, played back on the same system, is indistinguishable from the vinyl playback. But I disagree with your conclusion, as there are many well mastered, spectacular souding digital recordings being made today. But unfortunately usually not in the most popular types of music - rock, country, hip-hop/rap and their variants. The really outstanding recordings are usually made in classical, jazz, and various world/folk musics.

 

Today most vinyl releases are made from digital masters, not analog ones. And some people still prefer the sound of a vinyl pressing of a digital master to the actual digital playback of the digital file, which in some cases IS the master (or at leasat a perfect copy of it). So why do many prefer vinyl?

 

My answer is just that the vinyl itself imparts a sound that many prefer. Just like tape imparts a type of sound. The "sound of digital" isn't what is turning them off, because we hear that a digital rip can perfectly reproduce that "vinyl sound".

 

The exception to your scenario are those of us who tend to prefer the sound of digital in most cases.

 

I do agree that there are many really great mastered digital recordings. Sorry if I was not clear. While I really enjoy my vinyl setup, I still listen to my digital setup much more than the analog, it is just more convient and to me can still sound excellent many times. I pointed out the mixes from the 60s and 70s as recordings that generally don't always do as well when transferd to digital, but I agree that most new music even when released on LP is from a digital master.

 

 

I think that many people who prefer vinyl over digital, if they are being honest, enjoy the coloration that vinyl gives them. I have had many discussions with people who are trying to get the most accurate sound out of their vinyl rig and I always ask them why? get a good digital setup if you want accuracy. One of the main reasons vinyl (for me) is so enjoyable is how you can tweak the sound so that it is really tailored to your taste perfectly. Where as with digital you are told what it will sound like and you can either love it or hate it.

[Sal1950]

So whether a vinyl or digital guy, who here has joined the good fight and is running a DR14 on their recordings? Then you need to post the results to the Dynamic Range Database.

Album list - Dynamic Range Database

When the results are really bad you then need to post the results on the audiophile website or two. A short letter of complaint to the label with links to your public posting of the results is a good thing too.

A bit of work but the only way we have to leverage any change.

I do this with every new recording I purchase and when bored will pick a couple of my old files.

[Norton]

I think that many people who prefer vinyl over digital, if they are being honest, enjoy the coloration that vinyl gives them. I have had many discussions with people who are trying to get the most accurate sound out of their vinyl rig and I always ask them why? get a good digital setup if you want accuracy. One of the main reasons vinyl (for me) is so enjoyable is how you can tweak the sound so that it is really tailored to your taste perfectly. Where as with digital you are told what it will sound like and you can either love it or hate it.

 

The notion that vinyl is "coloured" is a bit of a cliche. Doesn't mean that it couldn't be true, but you might just as well say that people like digital because they get off on the sound of jitter. Surely via cable choice, re-gen devices, upsampling, transcoding, RAM disks, OS optimisers, PSUs etc, digital sound is just as capable of being manipulated to suit individual taste?

[JBNY]

The notion that vinyl is "coloured" is a bit of a cliche. Doesn't mean that it couldn't be true, but you might just as well say that people like digital because they get off on the sound of jitter. Surely via cable choice, re-gen devices, upsampling, transcoding, RAM disks, OS optimisers, PSUs etc, digital sound is just as capable of being manipulated to suit individual taste?

 

 

Digital IMO is much less susceptible to changes from things such as, cables, upsampling, transcoding etc. Digital tweeks make almost no real change in the actual tone of the music. I know many people spend lots of time and money on them but in the end the changes they make are very slight, so much so that if you take someone who is not aware of what was done they probably would not notice any difference at all. I am just as guilty as the next person for spending money on digital tweeks, but I measure the changes in very slight returns.

 

The difference on a vinyl setup just from different cartridges and phono preamps can be quite quite dramatic in the change they impart on the sound.

[firedog]

The notion that vinyl is "coloured" is a bit of a cliche. Doesn't mean that it couldn't be true, but you might just as well say that people like digital because they get off on the sound of jitter. Surely via cable choice, re-gen devices, upsampling, transcoding, RAM disks, OS optimisers, PSUs etc, digital sound is just as capable of being manipulated to suit individual taste?

 

You have some merit to your point. It has been shown that some people respond positively to some types of jitter. But the difference is that most of those "manipulations" you referred to have as their goal to reduce jitter and noise and make digital as perfectly accurate as possible.

[firedog]

So whether a vinyl or digital guy, who here has joined the good fight and is running a DR14 on their recordings? Then you need to post the results to the Dynamic Range Database.

Album list - Dynamic Range Database

When the results are really bad you then need to post the results on the audiophile website or two. A short letter of complaint to the label with links to your public posting of the results is a good thing too.

A bit of work but the only way we have to leverage any change.

I do this with every new recording I purchase and when bored will pick a couple of my old files.

 

I have posted there. I use it as a resource to check before I buy remasters. If the avg DR is below 8 I don't buy. Between 8-10 it's a maybe. I don't know how to communicate that to the label in any way that will be meaningful. I'm pretty sure the big commercial labels don't give a hoot about the 1% audiophile audience.

[NOMBEDES]

The notion that vinyl is "coloured" is a bit of a cliche. Doesn't mean that it couldn't be true

 

I just bought some vinyl that was green colored. Sounded ok to me!!

[Jud]

So whether a vinyl or digital guy, who here has joined the good fight and is running a DR14 on their recordings? Then you need to post the results to the Dynamic Range Database.

Album list - Dynamic Range Database

When the results are really bad you then need to post the results on the audiophile website or two. A short letter of complaint to the label with links to your public posting of the results is a good thing too.

A bit of work but the only way we have to leverage any change.

I do this with every new recording I purchase and when bored will pick a couple of my old files.

 

You have some merit to your point. It has been shown that some people respond positively to some types of jitter. But the difference is that most of those "manipulations" you referred to have as their goal to reduce jitter and noise and make digital as perfectly accurate as possible.

 

I like Sal's idea, first of all because it's nice to get up off our butts to do something, as opposed to just bemoaning the state of things. And second, my guess is that the labels will multiply the numbers of communications they actually receive by some factor to estimate those who feel the same way and won't buy a recording because of it, though they may not care enough to write. So we don't necessarily need to be a statistically measured majority or plurality, just a group that cares enough to write. (That's rare these days, so it makes an impression in proportion.)

 

As long as the labels figure they have to keep things loud for people listening with iPhone earbuds walking or driving down a busy street or sitting on a bus or subway, nothing's gonna happen except maybe it gets worse.

[CR250]

Done, thank you! I never seen that route before.

 

So, if I were to go to your profile and click on ignore, what would be ignored?

[esldude]

So, if I were to go to your profile and click on ignore, what would be ignored?

 

When Sal makes a post, you will see a small place holder when you view a thread, Sal's post is hidden because he is on your ignore list. You can click on it if you wish to view it anyway, or simply never see it by never clicking on that.

[Rexp]

I agree that a good digital rip, played back on the same system, is indistinguishable from the vinyl playback. But I disagree with your conclusion, as there are many well mastered, spectacular souding digital recordings being made today. But unfortunately usually not in the most popular types of music - rock, country, hip-hop/rap and their variants. The really outstanding recordings are usually made in classical, jazz, and various world/folk musics.

 

Today most vinyl releases are made from digital masters, not analog ones. And some people still prefer the sound of a vinyl pressing of a digital master to the actual digital playback of the digital file, which in some cases IS the master (or at leasat a perfect copy of it). So why do many prefer vinyl?

 

My answer is just that the vinyl itself imparts a sound that many prefer. Just like tape imparts a type of sound. The "sound of digital" isn't what is turning them off, because we hear that a digital rip can perfectly reproduce that "vinyl sound".

 

The exception to your scenario are those of us who tend to prefer the sound of digital in most cases.

Nope, the answer is the folks who prefer the digitally recorded/mastered vinyl over the digital version don't have a good enough digital front end.

[Sal1950]

What I find most disturbing as a computer audio digital person is that in many cases the big labels are giving the digital users crap. If you follow the database and what people are seeing is that with new releases and remastered oldies, the vinyl cutters are getting cutting master that hasn't had the very life squashed out of it DR12 and better. Then they are making a "generic" digital master with DR8 or less that is used for everything from itunes to 24/196 HDA downloads. It's no wonder that the vinyl guys are hearing some good things.

Ouch, it hurts to get screwed!

[Rexp]

What I find most disturbing as a computer audio digital person is that in many cases the big labels are giving the digital users crap. If you follow the database and what people are seeing is that with new releases and remastered oldies, the vinyl cutters are getting cutting master that hasn't had the very life squashed out of it DR12 and better. Then they are making a "generic" digital master with DR8 or less that is used for everything from itunes to 24/196 HDA downloads. It's no wonder that the vinyl guys are hearing some good things.

Ouch, it hurts to get screwed!

I believe most mainstream labels use the CD Master as a basis for the vinyl version so DR numbers should be the same but sometimes differ due to how the DR number is calculated, see here:

 

[Sal1950]

I believe most mainstream labels use the CD Master as a basis for the vinyl version so DR numbers should be the same but sometimes differ due to how the DR number is calculated, see here:

 

 

Ok, I can buy that, the tech is way beyond me, all I know is the numbers I see all the time.

 

"Since I posted this I have more information - the dynamics you can "see" on the vinyl aren't real, they're the result of something called "phase rotation" caused by the analogue signal path cutting the vinyl, which I can reproduce digitally. I'll post a follow-up video at some point demonstrating it."

 

So the vinyl is full of something called "phase rotation" that makes for incorrect DR measurements and gives wildly different, incorrect numbers?

I wonder if phase rotation could also be an audible distortion?