HQP vs. Vinyl Reassessment

[Cormorant]

Gone for a week trip and return to this...though I shouldn't be surprised, these type of threads seems freq. to devolve into ABX/DR crap. I'm a physician

 

Primum non nocere

[Sal1950]

Gone for a week trip and return to this...though I shouldn't be surprised, these type of threads seems freq. to devolve into ABX/DR crap. I'm a physician and fully believe in science, but really, you can't listen/enjoy music based on stats. All I was saying how despite all the digital advances, there's still something 'special' to vinyl for certain material. If you want to call it colored than so be it.

Humm, I thought we buried that talk long ago, now who's stirring the pot?

Just glad your not my Dr.

[Forehaven]

Humm, I thought we buried that talk long ago, now who's stirring the pot?

Just glad your not my Dr.

 

Really, a smiley face?

 

I should've nipped this bud when it digressed. I should've know better...

[CR250]

Just glad your not my Dr.

 

No worries. He's not a Veterinarian.

[zackthedog]

Gone for a week trip and return to this...though I shouldn't be surprised, these type of threads seems freq. to devolve into ABX/DR crap. I'm a physician and fully believe in science, but really, you can't listen/enjoy music based on stats. All I was saying how despite all the digital advances, there's still something 'special' to vinyl for certain material. If you want to call it colored than so be it.

 

 

 

Cool looking diy kit. Not a diy'er, but I do wonder the SQ of this w. it's separate PS.

 

 

 

 

I had time to check this out: iFi Micro/Preamp direct to amps. I did have to turn gain up a bit, but not as much as I had prev. thought. And despite how good imo the Emotiva pre is, this direct setup IS better. Better transparency and dynamics. Thanks for encouraging me to try this again.

 

I've built an Aikido octal preamp and though I'm not using it at the moment, I was very impressed with the clean, neutral sound. I already have a power supply for the modified SuperIt which will be perfect for this. I'll let you know how it works out.

[Rexp]

Gone for a week trip and return to this...though I shouldn't be surprised, these type of threads seems freq. to devolve into ABX/DR crap. I'm a physician and fully believe in science, but really, you can't listen/enjoy music based on stats. All I was saying how despite all the digital advances, there's still something 'special' to vinyl for certain material. If you want to call it colored than so be it.

 

 

 

Cool looking diy kit. Not a diy'er, but I do wonder the SQ of this w. it's separate PS.

 

 

 

 

I had time to check this out: iFi Micro/Preamp direct to amps. I did have to turn gain up a bit, but not as much as I had prev. thought. And despite how good imo the Emotiva pre is, this direct setup IS better. Better transparency and dynamics. Thanks for encouraging me to try this again.

Assuming you want to get your digital front end sounding as good as your vinyl rig, I'd look to the folks on this thread who have achieved this and copy them (that's what I plan to do). One thing they seem to have in common is they use a server combined with a NAA/Ethernet to USB device, rather than connecting the server directly to the DAC.

[zackthedog]

Assuming you want to get your digital front end sounding as good as your vinyl rig, I'd look to the folks on this thread who have achieved this and copy them (that's what I plan to do). One thing they seem to have in common is they use a server combined with a NAA/Ethernet to USB device, rather than connecting the server directly to the DAC.

 

I don't have a lot of patience with tweaks (except when it comes to my DIY amps) but this was a major step up in removing grunge from my digital front end. My digital system is fairly basic but adding the Cubox as an NAA for HQ Player has made an exponential improvement, all for $100. :-) I'm sure I could go much further but this made a tremendous difference.

[Forehaven]

Two affordable tweaks I have in mind in Optical Network Isol. and a NAA. There seems to be more choices other than a Cubox being developed/soon to be released I'm thinking about. Good to know adding a NAA has been so positive.

[ianshepherd]

Hi All,

 

Great to see you guys care about these issues ! Just to clear up a few points raised earlier in this thread:

 

- There's no question that the Quobuz master was the source for all the released versions of "Random Access Memories", including the vinyl

 

- The CD isn't a poor transfer, it's identical in terms of dynamics to the Quobuz release. The higher bit-depth and sample rate simply mean the Quobuz version has lower noise floor and wider frequency response than the CD

 

- My video demonstrating increased DR readings on vinyl isn't a specially chosen extreme example, it's just a case where it was easy for me to get the files make the comparison. What it shows is typical, in my experience - most vinyl rips of moderately limited material (e.g. DR 8) will show an increase in peak level (and therefore DR) of at least 4 dB, because of phase rotation. More heavily limited releases (DR6 and lower) may show even bigger increases. It's easy to do this test yourself, just apply an all-pass filter (non phase linear) to a digital source

 

- That's not to say that there aren't vinyl releases that used more dynamic masters and sound better as a result - there certainly are. But it does mean you can't figure out which ones they are by measuring with the TT meter, unfortunately

 

- The TT meter doesn't use the ITU standard, it pre-dates it by several years. It uses raw RMS and peak level measurements, to measure the so-called "crest factor". I recently developed a new plugin, called Dynameter, which does use the ITU standard, to measure a similar property called the short-term peak to loudness ratio (PSR). Unfortunately it's every bit as vulnerable to being fooled by phase rotation distortion as the TT meter. (Fwiw for material with balanced EQ content they both give very similar readings)

 

- Phase rotation is pretty benign sonically - most listeners are unlikely to notice it. In my opinion it doesn't give the impression of more dynamics, if anything it reduces them because of transient smearing

 

- In general, vinyl doesn't "need" a different master - heavily crushed digital masters can be cut as-is - for example Metallica's "Death Magnetic". The loudness of the cut is not determined by peak level, but rather by factors like loudness and running time. Since really "loud" digital sources will be turned down as a result, there's no point in crushing it that much in the first place, so you might as well take advantage of the extra available peak headroom, and use a less limited master

 

Summary: Many (probably the majority of) current vinyl releases are still made from the same digital source as the CD. In my opinion the apparently more "dynamic" sound of vinyl in these cases is often caused by a combination of: EQ differences; valve gear etc. in the playback path; additional processing during the cut including RIAA filters, de-essing, elliptical EQ etc; minor pitch variations; added distortion; crosstalk; surface noise; clicks etc etc.

 

And sometimes, by genuinely more dynamic mastering - meaning simply less peak limiting, usually.

 

Hope that helps !

 

Ian

[semente]

Cheers for that.

 

R

[Jud]

Thanks Ian for clearing up a couple of misconceptions on my part.

 

One thing I didn't see in your comment is my typical situation, where I have an old LP and am debating whether to buy the new hi res download. There I think we can quite often have a different mastering than the LP.

[CR250]

Thanks Ian for clearing up a couple of misconceptions on my part.

 

One thing I didn't see in your comment is my typical situation, where I have an old LP and am debating whether to buy the new hi res download. There I think we can quite often have a different mastering than the LP.

 

I would do some testing. Maybe buy a few albums in various formats, and compare them. Personally, every time I hear a record that is digital mastered or recorded, I don't think the improvement in SQ is compelling enough to buy vinyl. Compared to CD, the record sounds like better digital (SACD, DVD-A, hi res file, etc..). So if the album is offered in one of the hi res digital formats, I usually go digital. If the recording is analog, and has not been digitally remastered, I buy the record. To me the increase in SQ on an all analog recording, is worth the extra expense. Also, when I say that a digital recording/master sounds like better digital when played on vinyl, I assume the record is made from a format that has higher resolution than a CD, and not CD quality.

[Sal1950]

Thanks Ian for clearing up a couple of misconceptions on my part.

 

One thing I didn't see in your comment is my typical situation, where I have an old LP and am debating whether to buy the new hi res download. There I think we can quite often have a different mastering than the LP.

 

I won't buy any more HD downloads unless in some way I know the true provenance of the file, and how it sounds by reading a a few independent reviews. The sad part is the sellers do there best not to let you know anything. Since HDTracks got caught selling files that were simply 16/44 upsamples by the labels, they now have their Quality Assurance program in which they measure what the labels send them to insure the files are what they claim to be. Which is great but they never share any of that info with us or give us a TT reading of the file. I've seen a number of their HD files with a DR8-10 figure when the original CD from the 80-90s had a DR13-14. I'd like to see that in the "About This Album" section too.

I have the highest respect for the Chesky Bros, they've brought a large number of amazing sounding custom recordings to market over the years and really know what they're doing. And I don't mean to pick on them exclusively, they same and MORE is true for the other guys re-selling the old masters, I just used them as an example.

Good intentions are one thing but unfortunately in the audio business just as in any other the old saying still stands true.

"When it comes to money you have no friends"

[Cormorant]

Ian,

 

Thanks a bunch for weighing into our thread. There are a lot of audiophiles here, including me, that greatly appreciate your efforts to increase the quality of modern music recordings. You're a dynamic range rock star!

 

Cappy

[semente]

I won't buy any more HD downloads unless in some way I know the true provenance of the file, and how it sounds by reading a a few independent reviews. The sad part is the sellers do there best not to let you know anything. Since HDTracks got caught selling files that were simply 16/44 upsamples by the labels, they now have their Quality Assurance program in which they measure what the labels send them to insure the files are what they claim to be. Which is great but they never share any of that info with us or give us a TT reading of the file. I've seen a number of their HD files with a DR8-10 figure when the original CD from the 80-90s had a DR13-14.

 

My advice is that you don't overrate Dynamic Range as there are other things of equal or even more significant importance.

Many classical music remastered CDs have better sound quality despite the increased compression because the tonal balance is much more natural; this is also true for jazz and some pop/rock as well, although I don't have as much experience with the latter.

 

Nowadays one can buy used CDs from Amazon marketplace for £3 or less + shipping; there's no excuse for not trying.

 

HR files are another matter, and I agree that it would be nice to have an online database.

But like audio reviews one is at the mercy of the reviewer's competence and taste.

 

R

[Sal1950]

My advice is that you don't overrate Dynamic Range as there are other things of equal or even more significant importance.

Many classical music remastered CDs have better sound quality despite the increased compression because the tonal balance is much more natural; this is also true for jazz and some pop/rock as well, although I don't have as much experience with the latter.

 

Nowadays one can buy used CDs from Amazon marketplace for £3 or less + shipping; there's no excuse for not trying.

 

HR files are another matter, and I agree that it would be nice to have an online database.

But like audio reviews one is at the mercy of the reviewer's competence and taste.

 

R

 

Your absolutely right R. My knowledge base totally consists of info gleamed from the Rock, Pop, R&B, and C&W markets. And I continue to stock my collection with CDs off ebay at a rate of 2-4 a week on the REALLY cheap. I got k.d. langs-All You Can Eat for $2.50 and Van Morrisons Astral Weeks for $3 with FREE shipping on both and they were in like new condition, There are many other aspects of a file beyond DR that are or can be more important. But when a major label takes a popular music recording that had CDs on market in the 80-90s with DR13, then releases a new HDA file with a DR8, that also tell me a bit about their intentions, beside the fact that a CD from that era will crush it dynamically.

I'm reveling in the devalued CD market. LOL

But I started this whole discussion on DR and since, we've all learned much about the recording and measuring technology and many other things.

But the bottom line is still that the major labels are crushing the DR on almost everything they put out today. That is a bad thing for those interested in sound quality and something we all should find ways of opposing. It for the good of the music.

Cheers, Sal

[firedog]

I won't buy any more HD downloads unless in some way I know the true provenance of the file, and how it sounds by reading a a few independent reviews. The sad part is the sellers do there best not to let you know anything. Since HDTracks got caught selling files that were simply 16/44 upsamples by the labels, they now have their Quality Assurance program in which they measure what the labels send them to insure the files are what they claim to be. Which is great but they never share any of that info with us or give us a TT reading of the file. I've seen a number of their HD files with a DR8-10 figure when the original CD from the 80-90s had a DR13-14. I'd like to see that in the "About This Album" section too.

I have the highest respect for the Chesky Bros, they've brought a large number of amazing sounding custom recordings to market over the years and really know what they're doing. And I don't mean to pick on them exclusively, they same and MORE is true for the other guys re-selling the old masters, I just used them as an example.

Good intentions are one thing but unfortunately in the audio business just as in any other the old saying still stands true.

"When it comes to money you have no friends"

 

One of the things I hold against HDT is that when they built the new web site they had a comments section - like Amazon - and then removed it after about 2 days. That would have given us the ability to exchange information like DR rating, etc.

[semente]

One of the things I hold against HDT is that when they built the new web site they had a comments section - like Amazon - and then removed it after about 2 days. That would have given us the ability to exchange information like DR rating, etc.

 

Sounds like a good enough reason not to buy from them.

 

R

[Sal1950]

Sounds like a good enough reason not to buy from them.

 

R

Problem is if your interest is popular music their competition is at least as bad if not worse. There just is no integrity in the major label music business nor the people distributing their products. The fun part is learning to separate the good from the bad. LOL