Roon / HQPlayer Integration

[craighartley]

No, just local playback over USB and Firewire... And I use just the normal Roon application.

 

RoonServer is supposed to be the same but without the graphics

 

I'll try testing local playback over USB when I have time to move things around in a couple of days time.

[Miska]

But, as I wrote (PM), it does it even when App Nap is disabled globally or specifically for HQPlayer, and when App Nap is showing no activity in System Monitor.

 

I was able to reproduce the problem by running Roon in fullscreen mode on Mac Mini while HQPlayer was in background on the same machine. Switching HQPlayer window to foreground immediately removed the problem. Seems like OS X is applying AppNap regardless... If you Google around a bit, you may see many reports that people have problems getting AppNap stay out of picture (not related to HQPlayer).

 

Usually it seems to be at least required to disable it again after every reboot.

[Forehaven]

Following closely, tried changing filters, leaving HQP on top of Roon, turned off App Nap again via terminal, and I'm still getting really bad stuttering of all 256 files played natively.

 

The files play perfectly using just HQP. This has been going on quite awhile now for me at least.

[zorntel]

Following closely, tried changing filters, leaving HQP on top of Roon, turned off App Nap again via terminal, and I'm still getting really bad stuttering of all 256 files played natively.

 

The files play perfectly using just HQP. This has been going on quite awhile now for me at least.

 

There is definitely a problem...but it is really difficult to figure out.

 

When I run Roon and HQplayer on my mac mini (2012, 2.3gHz i7, 16gb RAM) I get the stuttering, even after turning off App Nap, running HQplayer in the foreground, and using my tablet to control Roon (like Forehaven). This occurs playing DSD256 files either to DSD128 on my Auralic Vega or DSD256 on my IFI micro iDSD. However, if I play the same file directly from HQplayer...Roon is not involved...no problem in either configuration (and having App Nap disabled doesn't matter either).

 

Now if I keep Roon on the same mac mini but use my mac pro (2008, 2.2gHz 8-core, GTX780 CUDA enabled, 28gb RAM) to run HQplayer the DSD256 plays without stuttering either when played from Roon or directly from the interface to either DAC.

 

Likewise if I use my macbook pro retina (3ghz i7, 8gb RAM) for HQplayer playback is ok using Roon (a very occasional stutter...but this was outputing to DSD256).

 

The really weird thing about the processing power hypothesis is why things work directly from the HQplayer interface. I started to think maybe its just the additive demands of Roon and HQplayer on the machine...so I ran this test.

 

I used my roon mac mini to send a 16/44 file to HQplayer on my mac pro to output in DSD256 to my ifi. No problem. At exactly the same time I used hqplayer on my mac mini to output a DSD256 file straight from the hqplayer interface. NO PROBLEM.

 

Thus, it appears that this must have something to do with the way Roon sends the DSD256 file to HQplayer and the way that HQplayer receives it. Maybe that is worse when roon and hqplayer are on the same machine...don't know...and can't test at this point because my lowest power machine is the one that Roon happens to live on.

 

Jussi, is the way that HQplayer receives files from Roon more demanding than if they are placed directly in the HQplayer interface, and how about the difference between roon and HQplayer being on the same machine vs different machines?

 

Robert

[craighartley]

Following closely, tried changing filters, leaving HQP on top of Roon, turned off App Nap again via terminal, and I'm still getting really bad stuttering of all 256 files played natively.

 

The files play perfectly using just HQP. This has been going on quite awhile now for me at least.

 

Same here. Makes no difference if app nap has just been disabled and HQPlayer is in the foreground. Of course in my setup RoonServer is never 'in the foreground'. I can ask Brian at Roon what difference it might make to HQP using RoonServer instead of 'normal' Roon, (although it's counter-intuitive to think it would make it worse), but as Robert points out, there seems to some other variable than app nap at play.

 

Craig

[Miska]

Jussi, is the way that HQplayer receives files from Roon more demanding than if they are placed directly in the HQplayer interface, and how about the difference between roon and HQplayer being on the same machine vs different machines?

 

There is one set of extra traffic. From HQPlayer's point of view it is not really much different than reading a file. But there's one extra transfer layer because Roon reads the file first and sends the stream to HQPlayer. This file read + stream is more than just plain file read by HQPlayer is.

[craighartley]

But does the problem appear without NAA, when HQPlayer is playing locally? I'm trying to reduce number of variables in the picture...

 

Well I've moved things between rooms so that I could try playing Roon/HQPlayer direct from the Mac Pro via USB to the exaSound e22-II DAC. The misbehaviour is exactly the same as when I play through NAA (except that HQPlayer quits unexpectedly every time I change album, but let's ignore that, because I'm moving everything back!).

[Miska]

Well I've moved things between rooms so that I could try playing Roon/HQPlayer direct from the Mac Pro via USB to the exaSound e22-II DAC. The misbehaviour is exactly the same as when I play through NAA (except that HQPlayer quits unexpectedly every time I change album, but let's ignore that, because I'm moving everything back!).

 

It seems to be an OS X bug, I'll try to make a workaround for it...

[craighartley]

There is definitely a problem...but it is really difficult to figure out.

 

When I run Roon and HQplayer on my mac mini (2012, 2.3gHz i7, 16gb RAM) I get the stuttering, even after turning off App Nap, running HQplayer in the foreground, and using my tablet to control Roon (like Forehaven). This occurs playing DSD256 files either to DSD128 on my Auralic Vega or DSD256 on my IFI micro iDSD. However, if I play the same file directly from HQplayer...Roon is not involved...no problem in either configuration (and having App Nap disabled doesn't matter either).

 

Now if I keep Roon on the same mac mini but use my mac pro (2008, 2.2gHz 8-core, GTX780 CUDA enabled, 28gb RAM) to run HQplayer the DSD256 plays without stuttering either when played from Roon or directly from the interface to either DAC.

 

Likewise if I use my macbook pro retina (3ghz i7, 8gb RAM) for HQplayer playback is ok using Roon (a very occasional stutter...but this was outputing to DSD256).

 

The really weird thing about the processing power hypothesis is why things work directly from the HQplayer interface. I started to think maybe its just the additive demands of Roon and HQplayer on the machine...so I ran this test.

 

I used my roon mac mini to send a 16/44 file to HQplayer on my mac pro to output in DSD256 to my ifi. No problem. At exactly the same time I used hqplayer on my mac mini to output a DSD256 file straight from the hqplayer interface. NO PROBLEM.

 

Thus, it appears that this must have something to do with the way Roon sends the DSD256 file to HQplayer and the way that HQplayer receives it. Maybe that is worse when roon and hqplayer are on the same machine...don't know...and can't test at this point because my lowest power machine is the one that Roon happens to live on.

 

Jussi, is the way that HQplayer receives files from Roon more demanding than if they are placed directly in the HQplayer interface, and how about the difference between roon and HQplayer being on the same machine vs different machines?

 

Robert

 

After further experiments with different setups, I agree with Robert that the crucial variable is whether Roon and HQPlayer are on the same machine.

 

My normal setup: RoonServer/HQPlayer on the same Mac Pro 3.5Ghz/6-core/32gb RAM > Ethernet > NAA > USB DAC.

Result: DSD256 playback (with all filters/modulators) starts almost immediately but stutters badly for usually at least 10-15 seconds. Same result with and without Pipeline SDM checked.

 

Changing to: RoonServer still on Mac Pro, but playing to HQPlayer on a distinctly less powerful MacBook Pro/i5 2.6Ghz/2-core/16gb RAM > Ethernet > NAA > USB DAC.

Result: Longer silent pause before playback but then plays very smoothly without stutters (for all filter/modulator/upsampling within same family).

 

Craig

[craighartley]

It seems to be an OS X bug, I'll try to make a workaround for it...

 

Thank you, that would be a blessing. I'd rather not buy yet another computer to put Roon on separately!

[Miska]

There is now beta6 for Mac that fixes the problem for me. I've been playing DSD256 on repeat on my dual-core i5 MacMini down-sampling it to DSD128 for TEAC UD-501. Both cores loaded at about 95% constant and seems to work fine.

Signalyst - Installing HQPlayer beta

[jhwalker]

There is now beta6 for Mac that fixes the problem for me. I've been playing DSD256 on repeat on my dual-core i5 MacMini down-sampling it to DSD128 for TEAC UD-501. Both cores loaded at about 95% constant and seems to work fine.

Signalyst - Installing HQPlayer beta

 

This beta behaves very differently for me

 

On my Mac Mini (2011 2.5GHz i5, 8GB RAM), it plays only a second at a time (with multisecond silence in-between each burst of sound), and the CPU is only running about 20% (earlier, with the same settings, it was ~200%). Poly-sinc-shrt-2s, ASDM7, Auto, DSD.

 

On my MacBook Pro (2011 2.7Ghz i7, 16GB RAM), it plays (though I've had dropouts vs. none with earlier betas), and CPU runs at ~100%. Poly-sinc-short, ASDM7, Auto, DSD.

[Freann]

Sorry Miska... Massive dropouts playing straight redbook without filtering/upsampling! I get 2-5 second music then a dropout.

 

No dropouts at all on b5.

[Freann]

Updated to Roon v1.1 (Build 102). No change...

[Outlaw]

Just downloaded Beta 6 for Mac.Works fine on its own but will not work with Roon.Song will play for second or two followed by silence for a few secs then plays and continues on like this stops and starts

[Miska]

On my Mac Mini (2011 2.5GHz i5, 8GB RAM), it plays only a second at a time (with multisecond silence in-between each burst of sound), and the CPU is only running about 20% (earlier, with the same settings, it was ~200%). Poly-sinc-shrt-2s, ASDM7, Auto, DSD.

 

On my MacBook Pro (2011 2.7Ghz i7, 16GB RAM), it plays (though I've had dropouts vs. none with earlier betas), and CPU runs at ~100%. Poly-sinc-short, ASDM7, Auto, DSD.

 

Argh, I'm starting to hate OS X even more than before... Where do you look for the CPU load?

 

How did the previous versions work for you? The beta6 fixed precisely that kind of behavior for me, previously OS X was freezing traffic between Roon and HQPlayer for seconds (when running on the same machine). Now when it disappeared for me, it appeared for you?

 

I tested beta6 running Roon and HQPlayer both on the Mac Mini and also networking streaming between Mac Mini and iMac...

[Outlaw]

Didn't have this issue with beta 3.

[Outlaw]

To find CPU load go into Applications then into Utilities then Activity Monitor.

[Miska]

Didn't have this issue with beta 3.

 

Does it make any difference if you switch HQPlayer window to foreground?

[Miska]

To find CPU load go into Applications then into Utilities then Activity Monitor.

 

On the process listing 100% means one core worth of utilization. So maximum load on a quad core would be 400%. At the bottom of the Activity monitor where the overall system graph plot is, 100% is full system load...

[Outlaw]

No

[jhwalker]

Argh, I'm starting to hate OS X even more than before... Where do you look for the CPU load?

 

How did the previous versions work for you? The beta6 fixed precisely that kind of behavior for me, previously OS X was freezing traffic between Roon and HQPlayer for seconds (when running on the same machine). Now when it disappeared for me, it appeared for you?

 

I tested beta6 running Roon and HQPlayer both on the Mac Mini and also networking streaming between Mac Mini and iMac...

 

Mac OS X Activity Monitor (found in the Utilities folder under Applications) shows the CPU load of all processes running.

 

On my i7 MacBook Pro running HQPlayer *and* NAA, but accepting input from Roon Server running on the Mini, playback seems to work fairly well; i.e., it starts relatively quickly, runs steadily at about 100% CPU, plays relatively normally, but with more dropouts than it did with beta 5.

 

On my i5 Mini running HQPlayer, accepting input from Roon Server also on the Mini, it only goes to 20-30% CPU and starts / stops continuously, whether playing to a remote NAA or to a directly attached DAC, upsampling to DSD or to PCM, etc.

[Outlaw]

Upsampling everything to DSD 128 on Mac Mini.Under Hqplayer 3.12 and beta 3 showed CPU load at around 45% and processes for Hqplayer around 145%.With beta 6 with music starting and stopping showing CPU load around 15 % and hqplayer Proccess going up and down anywhere from 10 % to 70 %.

[Outlaw]

Also tried PCM same thing starts and stops.

[Miska]

OK, I reverted part of the change I suspect causing the problem. Now it is half way between the earlier and the new behavior. I built it as beta7 available at the usual place.

 

It also has fixes for:

- fixes IceCast server error on radio.cesnet.cz

- fixes handling of files passed as command line arguments