Roon / HQPlayer Integration

[zorntel]

Jussi,

 

Just posted this over on the roon community...but thought I would put it here too. This is with 3.13.0b3 and Roon 1.1 build 99.

 

One other thing I'm looking forward to testing more once the new version is working is output of DSD256 files. The other day when I was doing my testing to determine the cause of the DSD haults I noticed thatDSD256 files were causing a lot of trouble with Roon and HQplayer negotiating particularly at the beginning of the track...starts and stops...but eventually things smoothed out. This was with HQplayer and Roon running on the same machine sending output to a linux NAA on the same switch. When I drop the DSD256 files directly into the hqplayer interface they beginning playing normally...no hesitation...so it seems like it is something about the roon/hqplayer handshake or data transfer, buffering, or the way hqplayer processes the data once it is received from Roon. However, I had this problem even when HQplayer was in SDMdirect mode so its seems unlikely to be the result of a lack of processing power in the roon/hqplayer computer.I have maybe two dozen DSD256 albums now...so its not a big issue yet...but it might be something to put on your list of things to test...I believe Brian has an ifi dac that can do DSD256.

 

Best,

 

Robert

[craighartley]

Jussi,

 

Just posted this over on the roon community...but thought I would put it here too. This is with 3.13.0b3 and Roon 1.1 build 99.

 

One other thing I'm looking forward to testing more once the new version is working is output of DSD256 files. The other day when I was doing my testing to determine the cause of the DSD haults I noticed thatDSD256 files were causing a lot of trouble with Roon and HQplayer negotiating particularly at the beginning of the track...starts and stops...but eventually things smoothed out. This was with HQplayer and Roon running on the same machine sending output to a linux NAA on the same switch. When I drop the DSD256 files directly into the hqplayer interface they beginning playing normally...no hesitation...so it seems like it is something about the roon/hqplayer handshake or data transfer, buffering, or the way hqplayer processes the data once it is received from Roon. However, I had this problem even when HQplayer was in SDMdirect mode so its seems unlikely to be the result of a lack of processing power in the roon/hqplayer computer.I have maybe two dozen DSD256 albums now...so its not a big issue yet...but it might be something to put on your list of things to test...I believe Brian has an ifi dac that can do DSD256.

 

Best,

 

Robert

 

I have exactly the same problem. I've reported it to Brian at Roon and to Jussi but with no solution so far.

[Germanboxers]

Sounds like data transfer problem (packet loss) on USB or some transfer error between USB interface and the D/A conversion stage inside the DAC...

 

Sometimes iFi iDSD Nano does similar tricks for me, or echo-effect. Seems to happen due to some electrical disturbance coming through the headphone socket.

 

Also make sure you don't turn volume too high in HQPlayer, I don't recommend exceeding -2 dBFS setting. Overload due to inter-sample overs doesn't sound nice... ("Limited" value in HQPlayer window should never change from 0)

 

Thanks, Jussi. Is this an issue with the Amenero board or the wiring to the DAC?

 

I do keep max volume at -3dBFS in HQPlayer.

 

Thanks,

Jordan

[zorntel]

Jussi,

 

Just posted this over on the roon community...but thought I would put it here too. This is with 3.13.0b3 and Roon 1.1 build 99.

 

One other thing I'm looking forward to testing more once the new version is working is output of DSD256 files. The other day when I was doing my testing to determine the cause of the DSD haults I noticed thatDSD256 files were causing a lot of trouble with Roon and HQplayer negotiating particularly at the beginning of the track...starts and stops...but eventually things smoothed out. This was with HQplayer and Roon running on the same machine sending output to a linux NAA on the same switch. When I drop the DSD256 files directly into the hqplayer interface they beginning playing normally...no hesitation...so it seems like it is something about the roon/hqplayer handshake or data transfer, buffering, or the way hqplayer processes the data once it is received from Roon. However, I had this problem even when HQplayer was in SDMdirect mode so its seems unlikely to be the result of a lack of processing power in the roon/hqplayer computer.I have maybe two dozen DSD256 albums now...so its not a big issue yet...but it might be something to put on your list of things to test...I believe Brian has an ifi dac that can do DSD256.

 

Best,

 

Robert

 

Ok...here is some more data, Brian and Jussi. When I run Roon (1.1 Build 99) from a mac (Mac Mini 10.11.3) and send the DSD256 file to a Windows 7 (64-bit, SP1) machine running HQplayer 3.12 (either connected directly to an IFI micro iDSD or via a cubox-i NAA), the file starts right away...no stuttering. SO...the problem is either how the mac version of roon sends the DSD256 file (incidentally it still stops at the predicable place)...or how the mac version of HQplayer receives the file from roon.

 

 

Hope that helps!

 

 

Robert

[Miska]

SO...the problem is either how the mac version of roon sends the DSD256 file (incidentally it still stops at the predicable place)...or how the mac version of HQplayer receives the file from roon.

 

We are discussing this and trying to figure out what is the bottleneck...

[Freann]

In my case my router (latest Airport Extreme) was the problem.

 

Player setup

- Roon/HQP on a MacBook Pro i7

- NAA on MacMini i7

- No filtering or upsampling.

 

Network variants

1. MBP on 5GHz wifi, NAA on 100mbit LAN

Massive dropouts

 

2. MBP on 5GHz wifi, NAA on gigabit LAN

Many dropouts

 

3. MBP and NAA on gigabit LAN

A few dropouts

 

4. MBP and NAA on gigabit LAN using separate gigabit switch

No dropouts at all

 

Seems the Airport Extreme induces latency when switching between different networks?

[craighartley]

In my case my router (latest Airport Extreme) was the problem.

 

Player setup

- Roon/HQP on a MacBook Pro i7

- NAA on MacMini i7

- No filtering or upsampling.

 

Network variants

1. MBP on 5GHz wifi, NAA on 100mbit LAN

Massive dropouts

 

2. MBP on 5GHz wifi, NAA on gigabit LAN

Many dropouts

 

3. MBP and NAA on gigabit LAN

A few dropouts

 

4. MBP and NAA on gigabit LAN using separate gigabit switch

No dropouts at all

 

Seems the Airport Extreme induces latency when switching between different networks?

 

Today I removed my AirPort Extreme and put the Mac Pro and the NAA on gigabit LAN using a separate gigabit switch. The network is generally slicker but sadly the dropouts remain.

[sdolezalek]

I don't want to start a "do cables matter" battle here, but I did find that making sure all my runs of Ethernet between my computer and my DAC were Cat7 shielded cable seemed to make a speed difference. I had previously used Cat5e. I'm using a Cisco SR2024T 24 port 10/100/1000 Gigabit Switch but also running the cables through the latest generation Apple Airport Extreme (to get Wifi into the room for my iPad control). No dropouts at DSD256.

[zorntel]

Although slow Wi-Fi can certainly make a difference I can crisscross my house in Wi-Fi (450mbps) as long as HQplayer is playing on my Windows machine (Roon on mac). Of course the files still stop as has been well documented but they don't stutter initially. Switch HQplayer to a Mac and stuttering everytime.

[scintilla]

I'm just loving using HQP with Roon. I would never have tried HQP, since I went to ALAC/itunes to manage my library a few years ago. While I prefered Win lossless and WMP for management, that became an issue when I wanted to use Purevinyl for LP playback and moved to an iMac for my work/music desktop. Thank you Jussi for providing such an amazing playback option! I just can't believe how great these old ripped cds sound now using poly sinc short and NS9 with my acourate RC filters. This is the culmination of decades of work to attain this level of playvback and I couldn't be happier! With the direction Roon is headed with development, I can see finally being all the way there with a comprehensive listening solution for streams, library and subscription services.

[zorntel]

Ok last piece of information on the DSD 256 stuttering with roon. I brought up a Linux Ubuntu studio 14. 04 machine this weekend to run HQ player (3.12}. It also does not stutter when I feed it files from roon (1.1 b99} running on my Mac. So it appears to be an issue only with the Mac running HQ player when receiving files from the Mac running roon. DSD files still stop on the second track after the 3:20 roon freeze, however. All tests done using a naa on Linux with.either IFI Micro iDSD at DSD256 or Auralic Vega with DoP at DSD128.

 

Robert

[Miska]

DSD files still stop on the second track after the 3:20 roon freeze, however.

 

This has been fixed in newer Roon builds...

 

All tests done using a naa on Linux with.either IFI Micro iDSD at DSD256 or Auralic Vega with DoP at DSD128.

 

Does it also happen if you play locally on Mac without NAA? I'm suspecting OS X applying App Nap or otherwise punishing HQPlayer because it doesn't understand that audio playback is going on.

[zorntel]

This has been fixed in newer Roon builds...

 

Right...that's what I've heard from Brian...just waiting for them to release the new build.

 

If you play locally on Mac without NAA? I'm suspecting OS X applying App Nap or otherwise punishing HQPlayer because it doesn't understand that audio playback is going on.

 

Yes, it happens regardless of whether I'm using an NAA or not. But only when hqplayer is doing the heavy lifting on a mac...windows 7 and 10 and linux are ok. Roon is always on a mac in my setup.

 

Robert

[craighartley]

I'm suspecting OS X applying App Nap or otherwise punishing HQPlayer because it doesn't understand that audio playback is going on.

 

But, as I wrote (PM), it does it even when App Nap is disabled globally or specifically for HQPlayer, and when App Nap is showing no activity in System Monitor.

 

Craig

[zorntel]

Right...forget to mention that I also had app nap disabled as well.

[Miska]

But, as I wrote (PM), it does it even when App Nap is disabled globally or specifically for HQPlayer, and when App Nap is showing no activity in System Monitor.

 

But does the problem appear without NAA, when HQPlayer is playing locally? I'm trying to reduce number of variables in the picture...

[zorntel]

For me the problem happens regardless of whether I'm using an NAA or not.

[Miska]

I've been trying to reproduce the problem between my MacMini and iMac without success. MacMini running Roon on either Win8.1 or OS X and HQPlayer running on iMac. Content on FW800 HDD on MacMini. With two DACs, iFi iDSD Micro and Mytek Stereo192-DSD DAC connected to Firewire (using Apple's Thunderbolt-to-Firewire adapter).

 

Network is wired CAT6 gigabit ethernet.

[Freann]

Miska: try content on a NAS instead of from the HDD. Might product different result.

[zorntel]

I've been trying to reproduce the problem between my MacMini and iMac without success. MacMini running Roon on either Win8.1 or OS X and HQPlayer running on iMac. Content on FW800 HDD on MacMini. With two DACs, iFi iDSD Micro and Mytek Stereo192-DSD DAC connected to Firewire (using Apple's Thunderbolt-to-Firewire adapter).

 

Network is wired CAT6 gigabit ethernet.

 

So the only difference here is that my roon machine is currently using 450mbps wireless to access the rest of the network...which is all cat 6 or 7 gb ethernet. It doesn't make a difference if the HQplayer machine is windows or linux...but it does when its a mac. Likewise, if I run HQplayer on the same mac as roon...and either go to a NAA or directly to the IFI I also get stuttering. The mac is a mac mini 2012 (2.2ghz i7). It plays the files fine directly from the HQplayer interface.

 

I'm not really sure what to say. I just set up a 14.04 Ubuntu Studio machine to run HQplayer on...so I'm not really intending to go back to running it on a mac...but it is a bit of a frustration that some users can't seem to get things to work.

[craighartley]

But does the problem appear without NAA, when HQPlayer is playing locally? I'm trying to reduce number of variables in the picture...

 

It's difficult for me to try that with the Mac Pro because of the location, and I would have to introduce other variables. Also @zorntel had already reported that the problem was the same with and without NAA.

[craighartley]

Miska: try content on a NAS instead of from the HDD. Might product different result.

 

Problem is same for me whether I use NAS or local Thunderbolt drive.

[craighartley]

I've been trying to reproduce the problem between my MacMini and iMac without success. MacMini running Roon on either Win8.1 or OS X and HQPlayer running on iMac. Content on FW800 HDD on MacMini. With two DACs, iFi iDSD Micro and Mytek Stereo192-DSD DAC connected to Firewire (using Apple's Thunderbolt-to-Firewire adapter).

 

Network is wired CAT6 gigabit ethernet.

 

Sorry if this is a dumb question, but are you using a NAA in this test? And have you tried it with RoonServer and HQPlayer on the same Mac (playing to a separate NAA)? That's my setup. Network is CAT7 gigabit Ethernet.

[Miska]

Miska: try content on a NAS instead of from the HDD. Might product different result.

 

I know that OS X tends to have some performance issues with NAS, I was doing quite a lot of optimization for that case in the HQPlayer file access routines. And the way how NAS is mounted also makes difference (at least for me). On newer OS X versions, mounting as "smb:" instead of "cifs:" is significantly faster to access. It used to be other way around in past...

 

USB drives also pose challenge sometimes.

 

On my test setup, I measured the data delivery jitter from Roon to HQPlayer, OS X to OS X when content is on the FW800 HDD and the delivery from network to playback was very stable with only < 0.2 ms timing variation.

 

I'll check how things change if I source content from NAS.

[Miska]

Sorry if this is a dumb question, but are you using a NAA in this test? And have you tried it with RoonServer and HQPlayer on the same Mac (playing to a separate NAA)? That's my setup. Network is CAT7 gigabit Ethernet.

 

No, just local playback over USB and Firewire... And I use just the normal Roon application.