ECdesigns

[realDHT]

There have been previous reports in the thread of various power supplies and sources together with the ECD combo. I made some experiments of these things yesterday and I write here my personal impressions:

 

1. Impact of the powersupply to the DA96 DAC

Stock supply VS very clean regulated supply (iFi iUSBpower fed by Salas shuntreg)  

 

2. Impact of the source

old server VS new server

 

Old server is an Intel I3 system with standard quality hardware, using PicoPSU (DC-DC switchmode converter) power, fed from a standard quality Velleman 13.8V LPSU. New server is an AMD Ryzen system with selected hardware (JCAT USB card, Optane drive etc) using dedicated high quality low-noice LPSU rails for all components. Both servers use the same OS/Player/Settings/Software optimizations.

 

Some month ago when I made experiment 2 with my prevous DAC (Amanero/ESS9018 DAC), there was a very big difference in sound quality between the servers, where the old server sounded almost muddy when compared with the new. This time comparing them using the ECD combo, I found most of the difference is gone! Both servers now sound great. Almost disappointing to me, since I spent much money and building effort on the new server :) Oh well, the new server still sounds somewhat better to me, but the difference is now much more subtle. I would say I can hear bigger difference doing up- or downsampling, or even changing the dither algorithm.

 

With experiment 1, there was bigger difference. With the stock power supply, I found the music a little more "grey" and somewhat restricted in dynamics. I would say the improvement using high quality power to the DA96 is worth the effort and extra cost.    

 

Takehome message: Power supply quality seems to matter more for the DA96, than for the U192.

There seems to be some merit to ECDesigns claims of source independence. Not complete source independence for sure, but much more so than my prevous DAC, that is very clear.         

[bodiebill]

57 minutes ago, realDHT said:

Takehome message: Power supply quality seems to matter more for the DA96, than for the U192.      

 

Thanks for the report! Interesting conclusion, as some have claimed the opposite: that it matters more for the U192 than for the DA96. I can not (as yet) judge from my own experience, but hope to try things out before long...

[realDHT]

3 hours ago, bodiebill said:

 

Thanks for the report! Interesting conclusion, as some have claimed the opposite: that it matters more for the U192 than for the DA96. I can not (as yet) judge from my own experience, but hope to try things out before long...

Yup, I did expect the U192 to be more sensitive since the oscillators are in that box. However I could not test upgrading the power to U192 directly (I tried using the iFi iUSBPower, but for some reason it did not work with the U192). My conclusion comes from assuming that the new server provides much cleaner power to the U192 than the old server. 

[bodiebill]

3 hours ago, realDHT said:

However I could not test upgrading the power to U192 directly (I tried using the iFi iUSBPower, but for some reason it did not work with the U192).

 

Just wondering: how did you test upgrading the power to U192 indirectly?

[realDHT]

21 minutes ago, bodiebill said:

 

Just wondering: how did you test upgrading the power to U192 indirectly?

Because my new server has high quality 5V LPSU that feeds the U192 via USB, and in the old server USB 5V comes from a switchmode picuPSU. Therefore I assume that comparing the different servers is indirectly comparing good vs bad quality USB power. But its not an accurate comparison. It is possible that the PicoPSU 5V is much better than I think, and then the U192 might still be sensitive for a bad power supply. 

[bodiebill]

3 minutes ago, realDHT said:

Because my new server has high quality 5V LPSU that feeds the U192 via USB, and in the old server USB 5V comes from a switchmode picuPSU. Therefore I assume that comparing the different servers is indirectly comparing good vs bad quality USB power. But its not an accurate comparison. It is possible that the PicoPSU 5V is much better than I think, and then the U192 might still be sensitive for a bad power supply. 

 

Thanks! Looking forward to more data points (mine included)...

[Huubster]

Well, it’s been a while I was here. But tonight I had a really nice and interesting audio evening I have to share with you guys 😊.

 

Tonight Bodiebill was at my place. A few weeks back I’ve been at his place with my UPL. I left it there for Bodiebill to do some more comparisons with his SDtrans player. I wasn’t using my UPL that much because my U192 (with Innuos Zen Mini) played pretty much the same level as the UPL.  Today was the day Bodiebill came by to bring the UPL back.

 

But it was not just ‘bringing it back’. In the meantime Bodiebill received his own UPL, which is the ‘new’ UPL with the same type of mod the U192 received before, cutting off the bandwith above xHz I believe. He also brought his UPL for comparison, together with a Paul Hynes SR4 LPS for use on my Innuos Zen Mini..

 

After a nice cup of coffee first we started off with listening, first to my current setup, my Innuos streamer feeding the U192. We used a well-known track for the both of us, one we used for reference at his place as well, classical music, piano and violin.

 

Whether it was because Bodiebill was there, a critical listener, or the time of day, or my mood, but I was not that happy with my own sound at all. It was small and ‘sterile’, no emotion. And I thought I noticed Bodiebill had the same feeling.. I have to add that I did some modifications to my own LPS lately, which didn’t turn out as good as I hoped for, my gutfeeling told me to go back, but I hadn’t done that yet.

 

After a few tracks we changed to my UPL. Wow, great difference, way better than my streamer playing the same WAV file. The U192 sounded smallish, not that open and airy and a bit more harsh compared to the UPL. Something I did not suffer from before, I actually praised my combo for not having that before… I felt pretty miserable at that moment, was I so wrong?! I clearly have to undo my LPS mods!

 

After listening to my UPL, we switched to the ‘new’ UPL from Bodiebill. Interesting result at first, we both preferred my ‘old’ model. After switching back and forth we agreed that the sound is actually more different than that it is a matter of better or worse. We could clearly hear that our reference song sounded different, with the ‘old’ UPL as a clear winner for the violin, but the ‘new’ UPL as clear winner regarding the piano in that very same song. But both sounded really good, that’s for sure.

 

Last thing of the evening was switching my Innuos LPS for the Paul Hynes SR4. Well, this was the real surprise! To put it short, I definitely preferred the U192 to the UPL. I’ll let @bodiebill share his own opinion on this one. But the impact of the Paul Hynes SR4 on my Innuos streamer was insane. What an increase in dynamics, big soundstage, open, airy, everything! It just sounded so good, we went back to the UPL for comparison and confirmed again that I preferred the U192 to the UPL..

 

Earlier I bragged here on this forum about my Zen Mini, sounding almost as good as the UPL. I felt a bit ashamed when it was clearly not the case earlier this evening. But now I heard the UPL can even be bettered by the U192. 😊 The SR4 is on my shortlist now, but I'll start with un-doing my LPS mods first!

 

Important sidenote for this last comparison though. I use the standard DC cable I received with the Innuos combo, a very simple cable. With the Paul Hynes SR4 on the Innuos we used a DIY cable from Bodiebill, based on a well known recipe on this forum as I understood it, which apparently is a very good cable! So it’s not only the LPS contributing to the difference, I know what impact cabling can have.

 

Thanks for this great evening bodiebill!

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

Hi @Huubster

 

Really interesting feedback.

 

Some updates on my side as well... I ended up a little frustrated with the U192 compared to the UPL, as you describe it yourself in the first part of your listening session. 

 

I never really got it to sound at the level of the UPL, in my system, and certainly not since purchasing a second UPL with that revised board you mention. 

 

It is great that you have found excellent sound with the Zen Mini and the proper power supply. I am jealous! 

 

But I do listen only to  music from my own files,  so am ok with using exclusively the UPL, especially since I am putting a large number of entire albums saved as single tracks on a 2TB SSD. ECD is in fact working on extending the number of folders from 99 to 999, which will allow storing a maximum of 98.801 albums! I am also working on an alternative app to control the UPL.

But most will certainly prefer the convenience of the U192.

 

 

[realDHT]

11 hours ago, Huubster said:

The SR4 is on my shortlist now, but I'll start with un-doing my LPS mods first!

 

 

Thanks for the report! 

 

May I ask what were the LPS mods you did that you will undo?

 

Was the U192 the new updated version?

 

 

[bodiebill]

9 hours ago, hopkins said:

ECD is in fact working on extending the number of folders from 99 to 999, which will allow storing a maximum of 98.801 albums! I am also working on an alternative app to control the UPL.

 

Exciting stuff, I can confirm. This will increase the usebility of the UPL. @hopkins was so kind to let me try (and comment on) a trial version of his app, and I really like it!

[bodiebill]

11 hours ago, Huubster said:

Last thing of the evening was switching my Innuos LPS for the Paul Hynes SR4. Well, this was the real surprise!

 

The fact that there was a really big difference when only swapping power supplies for the ZenMini shows that the ECD topology with ElectroTOS, although considerable decreasing the audible difference between sources, is certainly not source independent.

 

And if we assume that the UPL is intrinsically cleaner than the U192, then the perceived counterintuitive difference in SQ that @Huubster describes above (and that I can confirm) can only be attributed to the power supply. At least, that is what logic seems to say. But as always we have to wait and hear...

 

I can hardly wait to power the U192 and UPL with my SR4T (5V) using this cable:

https://www.ghentaudio.com/usb/u22.html

which is on its way to me now.

That is where I will start, so not with the DA96, as I heard yesterday what the latter is capable of when powered with the stock ECD PS.

[Huubster]

20 minutes ago, realDHT said:

 

Thanks for the report! 

 

May I ask what were the LPS mods you did that you will undo?

 

Was the U192 the new updated version?

 

 

 

My first mod was removing the internal wiring of the ground cable. So I decoupled the ground wire in the LPS case from the casing itself (My wallmount has no grounding either, so I don't miss it). That was a major step up, I'm pretty sure that modification stays, but I will definitely do a re-check.

 

The latter mod was a very simple one too, and could only have, conform my logic, a positive impact, but I had my doubts from the first notes I heard. I removed the on/off switch from the circuit. Internally AC is coming in, wired to the on/off switch, and from the on/off switch wired to the circuit board. I changed that by routing the wiring from incoming chassis to the circuit board directly. I had to fiddle around with and bow those metal lips on the outer ends of the cabling to make it fit on the circuit board connectors. Maybe they don't make proper contact now, causing the deteriorated sound.. So I was actually thinking this morning to remove those horrible nasty metal lips and solder the contacts instead. I still believe that removing the on/off switch cannot make the sound worse right?!

 

And yes, the U192 is the updated version.

[realDHT]

2 hours ago, Huubster said:

 

My first mod was removing the internal wiring of the ground cable. So I decoupled the ground wire in the LPS case from the casing itself (My wallmount has no grounding either, so I don't miss it). That was a major step up, I'm pretty sure that modification stays, but I will definitely do a re-check.

 

The latter mod was a very simple one too, and could only have, conform my logic, a positive impact, but I had my doubts from the first notes I heard. I removed the on/off switch from the circuit. Internally AC is coming in, wired to the on/off switch, and from the on/off switch wired to the circuit board. I changed that by routing the wiring from incoming chassis to the circuit board directly. I had to fiddle around with and bow those metal lips on the outer ends of the cabling to make it fit on the circuit board connectors. Maybe they don't make proper contact now, causing the deteriorated sound.. So I was actually thinking this morning to remove those horrible nasty metal lips and solder the contacts instead. I still believe that removing the on/off switch cannot make the sound worse right?!

 

And yes, the U192 is the updated version.

Ok, tnx.

I agree that your bypass of the switch should not make things worse unless a bad contact is introduced. Bypassing of the power switch should not make much difference to sound anyway IMHO. 

      

[Huubster]

10 minutes ago, realDHT said:

I agree that your bypass of the switch should not make things worse unless a bad contact is introduced.       

 

You could have a point there, I just opened the LPS and found out that one of the cables was very loosely connected to the metal clip it was attached to, I just pulled the cable out of that clip by hand. I think that happened when I had to pull them off the connectors for the modification, they were attached very firmly.

 

So I just soldered the connection, I will have a listen later today. The living room, where my audio equipment is residing, is now occupied by my girlfriend working.. One of the downsides of working at home together... :)

[Huubster]

18 minutes ago, realDHT said:

Bypassing of the power switch should not make much difference to sound anyway IMHO.       

 I think it does make a difference. I hate those metal clips. By soldering the connection directly now I effectively removed 6 of those nasty clips out of the circuit, I'm pretty sure that makes a difference. 

[Huubster]

Yesterday evening I did a short listening session with the AC cabling soldered directly to the circuitboard in my Innuos LPS.. Luckily this gave me back the big and open soundstage I got earlier and which was clearly missing after my 'modification'.

 

But the thing is, I heard the Paul Hynes SR4 with good DC cabling.... 😬 My LPS is not on that level (yet) for sure, far less dynamics. So now I'm wondering whether I should try a proper DC cable and some further modding on my Innuos LPS or go for a SR4 with proper DC cable right away...? Any advice here? 🙂

[Huubster]

Oh, and on my way to work I bought myself a nice 2nd hand AC cable with a figure 8 connector, so I'm going to try that one on the DA96 Power Supply instead of the standard cabling we all got with the device. To be continued tonight..

[bodiebill]

3 minutes ago, Huubster said:

But the thing is, I heard the Paul Hynes SR4 with good DC cabling.... 😬 My LPS is not on that level (yet) for sure, far less dynamics. So now I'm wondering whether I should try a proper DC cable and some further modding on my Innuos LPS or go for a SR4 with proper DC cable right away...? Any advice here? 🙂

 

If you replace the cable first, you will be able to determine its effect. And if in doubt, we can do another comparison with my SR4. If you then prefer the SR4 and buy one (or a SR4T), the cable needs to be re-terminated with a 4 pin mal XLR.

[bodiebill]

P S This may also be the advisable route as delivery of an SR4(T) takes a few months :-|

[Huubster]

18 minutes ago, bodiebill said:

 

If you replace the cable first, you will be able to determine its effect. And if in doubt, we can do another comparison with my SR4. If you then prefer the SR4 and buy one (or a SR4T), the cable needs to be re-terminated with a 4 pin mal XLR.

 

Good one. Now the decision is whether to go the DIY route or buy a DC cable. I must admit that the DIY route as you did with your cable seems interesting, not cheap, but fun to do :D 

 

I found the recipe for that Mundorf silver/gold DC cable here on the forum, it's quite a project, but getting all the necessary components seems to be the most time consuming part of it!  

[bodiebill]

@huubster I will PM you...

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

I recieved today the Ghent audio cable l and used it between my NUC and the UPL, with a large powerbank (Goal Zero Sherpa 100D) to power the UPL. This works well. Will have to do sone comparisons to determine whether there is a real sonic benefit, but I am certainly enjoying listening! 

 

I turned on my system around 10pm, it is now 2AM, I have to get up in 6 hours - the ECD boxes are irresistible :) 

[tims]

23 minutes ago, hopkins said:

I recieved today the Ghent audio cable l and used it between my NUC and the UPL, with a large powerbank (Goal Zero Sherpa 100D) to power the UPL. This works well. Will have to do sone comparisons to determine whether there is a real sonic benefit, but I am certainly enjoying listening! 

 

I turned on my system around 10pm, it is now 2AM, I have to get up in 6 hours - the ECD boxes are irresistible :) 

I had my UPL for a couple of days now and I don't know whether or not so there some burn in going on, but it keeps sounding better and better - I would say the sound is the closest I've heard to a live performance.  

At the moment, the UPL is going to my integrated amp with dual AKM AK4497EQ DAC's which is no slouch.  Hopefully In the week or so I'll receive the fractal DAC so that will be an interesting comparison.  

I'm also getting the Ghent usb y cable - I asked him not to put the Oyaide DC plug on but lengthen the DC cable part so I can connect it directly to my PS.  Can't imagine the UPL will sound much better than it already is but I'm hoping to be pleasantly surprised! :')

[Huubster]

On 9/26/2020 at 2:02 AM, hopkins said:

I recieved today the Ghent audio cable l and used it between my NUC and the UPL, with a large powerbank (Goal Zero Sherpa 100D) to power the UPL. This works well. Will have to do sone comparisons to determine whether there is a real sonic benefit, but I am certainly enjoying listening! 

 

I turned on my system around 10pm, it is now 2AM, I have to get up in 6 hours - the ECD boxes are irresistible :) 

Any updates on this @hopkins? 😊

[Huubster]

I have been listening to the DA96 after I changed the AC cable. I recently bought a nice AC cable, thick copper wire and decent (not great) connectors on both ends. And I'm happy with the results, it's adding more body and weight to tonality, it's sounding fuller, especially noticable with piano.

 

I have better connectors on order, I'm a big fan of pure copper connectors, I will change the connectors of the AC cable and will let you know what further improvements I get.