ECdesigns

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

5 minutes ago, tims said:

Thanks - question about the DA96ETF external PS.  Is the cable from the PS to the DAC hard-wired (into the PS) or do they supply one of these (or similar)?

 uc250

 

The cable is not hardwired into the PS

They supply something similar to the UC250. Mine is blue, and it uses I think a similar design as the UC250. They initially shipped the DAC with a thinner-wire black cable which I assume was not made in-house by ECD but externally supplied. 

 

I added the ferrite beads because I am anal about RF interferences 🙂

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

Sorry for the low quality picture...

[realDHT]

U192 and fractal DAC arrived 2 days ago  2 weeks after I ordered it, so faster than the 3-4 weeks estimation given in the webstore (I am in Europe). I first let the music server and ecd combo play for a full day without amplification, for some break-in. Then it was time for A/B comparisons with my other DAC, which I believe is a fairly nice ESS9018 implementation with Amanero USB input and transformer output stage, it is described here http://www.audiodesignguide.com/DAC32/index2.html  

 

Source: DIY music server similar to Nenon projects (Ryzen 3700x CPU, Apacer ECC memory, ASUS rog Strix x470 motherboard, Optane 900P for OS, External usb HDD for music, JCAT Femto USB card. Windows Server 2019, Audiophile Optimizer, Process Lasso, JRiver player). All external and internal server components powered with separate linear regulated rails, including CPU and ATX voltages.  

 

5V power to the ECD fractal DAC via an iFi iUSBpower (the iFi was fed 9V from a Salas UltraBib shunt regulator). 

5V power and signal to the U192 via JCAT Femto USBcard (USB card fed with 5V Salas UltraBib shunt regulator),

 

Amplifier: DIY electrostatic headphone amplifier (DACs connected directly to this amplifier, volume via JRiver internal volume DSP)

Headphones: STAX SR-007 mk2 electrostatics. 

 

Impressions:

The ECD combo sounds warmer, smoother, more relaxed, more effortless than my 9018 DAC. I find acoustic instruments to sound more real with the ECD. On most recordings, the difference is not subtle, it is very easy to hear. For example I percieved much more life-like rendering of harpsichord (J. S. Bach: Concertos for Harpsichord and Strings, The English Concert/Trevor Pinnock, Archiv Produktion, 1982) and a huge improvement in percussion, higher frequencies in particular (Eva Cassidy, Still not ready for the good times, Imagine, 2002). 

Voices also sound better with ECD, no harshness and a touch more presence. ECD is more resolving overall.

 

On one recording (Alison Krauss, Live, 2002), I found the difference between both DACs to be much less apparent, and I had difficulties to pick a clear preferrence on that one. Found that a bit strange. The Krauss recording is 24 bit / 88.2 kHz, while the others are redbook format, could be part of the reason maybe? 

 

I will definately keep this one.         

[Ben75]

11 minutes ago, realDHT said:

U192 and fractal DAC arrived 2 days ago  2 weeks after I ordered it, so faster than the 3-4 weeks estimation given in the webstore (I am in Europe). I first let the music server and ecd combo play for a full day without amplification, for some break-in. Then it was time for A/B comparisons with my other DAC, which I believe is a fairly nice ESS9018 implementation with Amanero USB input and transformer output stage, it is described here http://www.audiodesignguide.com/DAC32/index2.html  

 

Source: DIY music server similar to Nenon projects (Ryzen 3700x CPU, Apacer ECC memory, ASUS rog Strix x470 motherboard, Optane 900P for OS, External usb HDD for music, JCAT Femto USB card. Windows Server 2019, Audiophile Optimizer, Process Lasso, JRiver player). All external and internal server components powered with separate linear regulated rails, including CPU and ATX voltages.  

 

5V power to the ECD fractal DAC via an iFi iUSBpower (the iFi was fed 9V from a Salas UltraBib shunt regulator). 

5V power and signal to the U192 via JCAT Femto USBcard (USB card fed with 5V Salas UltraBib shunt regulator),

 

Amplifier: DIY electrostatic headphone amplifier (DACs connected directly to this amplifier, volume via JRiver internal volume DSP)

Headphones: STAX SR-007 mk2 electrostatics. 

 

Impressions:

The ECD combo sounds warmer, smoother, more relaxed, more effortless than my 9018 DAC. I find acoustic instruments to sound more real with the ECD. On most recordings, the difference is not subtle, it is very easy to hear. For example I percieved much more life-like rendering of harpsichord (J. S. Bach: Concertos for Harpsichord and Strings, The English Concert/Trevor Pinnock, Archiv Produktion, 1982) and a huge improvement in percussion, higher frequencies in particular (Eva Cassidy, Still not ready for the good times, Imagine, 2002). 

Voices also sound better with ECD, no harshness and a touch more presence. ECD is more resolving overall.

 

On one recording (Alison Krauss, Live, 2002), I found the difference between both DACs to be much less apparent, and I had difficulties to pick a clear preferrence on that one. Found that a bit strange. The Krauss recording is 24 bit / 88.2 kHz, while the others are redbook format, could be part of the reason maybe? 

 

I will definately keep this one.         

Hi realDHT,

 

Great to see you trying the ECD combo and to read your feedbacks.

Something you could certainly improve is to use a shunt resistor for managing the volume (like the SVC 24 from ECD) as it seems that Jriver volume control does not maintain a bit perfect playback.

 

Enjoy the listening! 🙂

[realDHT]

7 minutes ago, Ben75 said:

Hi realDHT,

 

Great to see you trying the ECD combo and to read your feedbacks.

Something you could certainly improve is to use a shunt resistor for managing the volume (like the SVC 24 from ECD) as it seems that Jriver volume control does not maintain a bit perfect playback.

 

Enjoy the listening! 🙂

Hi Ben75, thanks for the suggestion!

You are correct that I'm not playing bitperfect now. I remember EC designs opinion is that bitperfect is important. Will probably try shunt resistor later to see if I can hear the improvement. 

[Norton]

I’ve been doing some experimentation myself.  Note this involved playing physical CDs so stop reading now if this offends you.
 

I have hundreds of  CDs that I’ve never got round to ripping.  I also actually just like playing physical CDs.  I put the updated U192 back in my system, connected it to my  Bryston BDP and then a Blu-ray drive (self-powered by LPSU) to the BDP.  It sounded terrific, a massive improvement on the same discs via my Oppo205 and, where I had already  ripped,  to my ears better than the files also via the BDP.

 

Got me to wondering, to cut down  the box count in the signal path, whether a UPL96 could be used with a usb CD/BD drive rather than USB stick, with modified remote software?  Or whether an existing CD transport (like the Audiolab or Cambridge Audio popular in UK) could be modded for electrotos output?
 

Have suggested to ECD.  But there is also the possibility of finding a CD Transport with USB out.   I only know of the one planned by Schitt (don’t know how far off that is?) plus the Melco, which is just a (expensive!) drive, but uniquely has separate usb connections for control and signal so perhaps can run direct into U192 providing controlled by my BDP or another PC etc.  With both these options there is also the question of whether they would provide adequate power to the U192.  

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

1 hour ago, Norton said:

I’ve been doing some experimentation myself.  Note this involved playing physical CDs so stop reading now if this offends you.
 

I have hundreds of  CDs that I’ve never got round to ripping.  I also actually just like playing physical CDs.  I put the updated U192 back in my system, connected it to my  Bryston BDP and then a Blu-ray drive (self-powered by LPSU) to the BDP.  It sounded terrific, a massive improvement on the same discs via my Oppo205 and, where I had already  ripped,  to my ears better than the files also via the BDP.

 

Got me to wondering, to cut down  the box count in the signal path, whether a UPL96 could be used with a usb CD/BD drive rather than USB stick, with modified remote software?  Or whether an existing CD transport (like the Audiolab or Cambridge Audio popular in UK) could be modded for electrotos output?
 

Have suggested to ECD.  But there is also the possibility of finding a CD Transport with USB out.   I only know of the one planned by Schitt (don’t know how far off that is?) plus the Melco, which is just a (expensive!) drive, but uniquely has separate usb connections for control and signal so perhaps can run direct into U192 providing controlled by my BDP or another PC etc.  With both these options there is also the question of whether they would provide adequate power to the U192.  

 

Hi Norton,

What Bryston BDP model do you have exactly ? Am I understanding you correctly - the BDP plays directly the CD from the drive and outputs USB, and that sounds better than ripping the same CD and playing the files from the BDP - in both cases with the U192 ?

[Norton]

1 hour ago, hopkins said:

 

Hi Norton,

What Bryston BDP model do you have exactly ? Am I understanding you correctly - the BDP plays directly the CD from the drive and outputs USB, and that sounds better than ripping the same CD and playing the files from the BDP - in both cases with the U192 ?

It’s the original BDP1 and yes that’s correct, I’m using the BDP in effect as a CD player by connecting a USB BD drive, that outputs through  the BDP to the U192. The BDP’s firmware is set up to do this because they used to offer their own add-on drive. I find the results just that little sharper than playing a ripped file  also via BDP.  I think the BDP reads into a ram buffer as the music continues for a  few seconds after the drive stops at the end of a disc.  
 

I’m wondering how easy it would be for the UPL to read from a CD/BD drive -I’m guessing it would “just” take a different version if their remote  software.

 

 

[seeteeyou]

I've got the "big brother" (i.e. D10) of Melco D100 and both of them are USB slave devices, therefore they must be connected to a USB host (i.e. computers / mobile devices / digital audio transports etc.) device first while XMOS XU208 inside U192ETL is also connected to that same device. The whole point really is all about loading USB Mass Storage driver for Melco and USB audio driver for U192ETL respectively.

 

For connecting Blu-ray drives to UPL96ETL via USB, John will have to update its firmware in order to be able to recognize the file system of audio CDs (called CDFS) instead of FAT32 that's found on USB flash drives.

 

Finally it's a completely different story with that upcoming CD transport from Schiit Audio, they're incorporating their own proprietary USB board so that's gonna act more like USB host device on its own

 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/what-a-long-strange-trip-its-been-robert-hunter.784471/page-516#post-14230379

Quote

Then we have the new USB board, which we would roll our own implementation into a generic Microchip Pic Part. Up to now, the best choices are XMOS or C-Media (which we now use).

 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/what-a-long-strange-trip-its-been-robert-hunter.784471/page-649#post-14700297

Quote

So the transport will include a USB host (audio output)

 

[Norton]

3 hours ago, seeteeyou said:

I've got the "big brother" (i.e. D10) of Melco D100 and both of them are USB slave devices, therefore they must be connected to a USB host (i.e. computers / mobile devices / digital audio transports etc.) device first while XMOS XU208 inside U192ETL is also connected to that same device. The whole point really is all about loading USB Mass Storage driver for Melco and USB audio driver for U192ETL respectively

Not sure if I got  model name right, I meant Melco’s CD drive.The possible attraction being that, while it has to be controlled by another device (maybe by my BDP?) unlike other drives it has separate control and data connections,  so that the music stream could go direct to U192 rather than through the BDP.

[seeteeyou]

It's definitely Melco D100 as linked below, that USB 3.0 port on the left (USB 3.0 TO DEVICE) is more like USB hub for connecting another USB DAC / DDC such as U192ETL so that both D100 and USB DAC / DDC could talk to the same USB host device simultaneously

 

https://www.melco-audio.com/products/d100/

https://www.melco-audio-masters.com/uploads/1/0/1/5/101505220/quick_setup_guide_d100_usb_optical_disc_drive_for_audio.pdf#page=5

 

Once again XMOS U208 inside U192ETL won't work without a specific device driver loaded and therefore Melco D100 by itself couldn't do anything about the device driver part, therefore we still have to connect our computers (e.g. Raspberry Pi etc.) or digital audio transports (i.e. Bryston BDP-1 etc.) to that USB 3.0 port (USB 3.0 TO HOST) right in the middle of Melco D100.

 

That CD transport from Schiit Audio really is a special case because they're spending a fairly long time to work on the USB host part.

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

4 hours ago, Norton said:

It’s the original BDP1 and yes that’s correct, I’m using the BDP in effect as a CD player by connecting a USB BD drive, that outputs through  the BDP to the U192. The BDP’s firmware is set up to do this because they used to offer their own add-on drive. I find the results just that little sharper than playing a ripped file  also via BDP.  I think the BDP reads into a ram buffer as the music continues for a  few seconds after the drive stops at the end of a disc.  
 

I’m wondering how easy it would be for the UPL to read from a CD/BD drive -I’m guessing it would “just” take a different version if their remote  software.

 

 

 

Thanks for the clarification. Did you compare the same ripped files playing on the UPL? 

[Norton]

2 hours ago, hopkins said:

 

Thanks for the clarification. Did you compare the same ripped files playing on the UPL? 

No not as easy to flip source...

Also  I’m beginning to change my opinion just with the BDP.  (The same) physical cd and it’s ripped files do sound different but not sure now the physical CD is better.  Possibly increased jitter makes it sound a little more forward and exciting?

 

Am warming a little to the U192 though, the DAC’s characteristics still come though as they do with the UPL, maybe not quite as pronounced though.

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

Its good to back to the "UPL"  once in a while to "set yourself straight" just like with vinyl.

 

Using headphones directly connected to the DAC, with the UPL, is also really interesting as you can get an idea of the level of distortion introduced by all the rest of our equipment: amplifier, speaker, room. I get the idea now behind their future PowerDAC. 

[bodiebill]

2 hours ago, hopkins said:

Using headphones directly connected to the DAC, with the UPL, is also really interesting as you can get an idea of the level of distortion introduced by all the rest of our equipment: amplifier, speaker, room. I get the idea now behind their future PowerDAC. 

 

This thread inspired me to try just that. As I have this cable for my TakeT H2 and Hifiman HE-6 headphones (both really hard to drive) , with two 4 pin mini-XLR for the cans and one 4 pin male XLR on the other end, I ordered a 4 pin female XLR to be able to convert to 2 RCA's for the SVC24. 

 

I guess this will not work with the Taket (which needs its own special box), but it may well work with the Hifiman. 

 

 

[Norton]

Anyone have the UC250 cable and able to comment on comparative SQ vs other cables?  Wondered if really worth spending €80 to replace the basic cable I’m currently using from BDP to U192?  

[Ben75]

2 hours ago, Norton said:

Anyone have the UC250 cable and able to comment on comparative SQ vs other cables?  Wondered if really worth spending €80 to replace the basic cable I’m currently using from BDP to U192?  

Hello Norton,

 

I can speak a little bit about my experience with the UC250 at Hopkins house against my Curious Cable (considered by many as a reference cable at a non so-expensive price).

I would say that the Curious was a little bit more "precise" which at the end is more revealing of micro details. But the UC250 is a great cable (especially if you don't anticipate to inject 5Vpower externally as tapatrick did) and the Curious is just a little bit superior - and doesn't justify such a high price according to my ears.

 

If I was you I should try this Y cable with a good battery (like Hopkins did?) that will handle powering the U192. It is certainly giving the best result by far : https://www.ghentaudio.com/usb/u22.html

I let Hopkins to share with you the battery reference (that may help others too) and the reference of DC adaptor to connect the battery to this Y usb cable?

 

Anyway, I would say that a good USB cable is very important and may not cost you so much for great results ! 🙂

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

Hi @Ben75, I don't recall the comparison with the Curious cable, but i trust we tried it - I guess it did not strike me as particularly beneficial?

 

@Norton, the ECD cables are a safe bet.

 

As for batreries, any 3.7v lithium battery will do. But it adds complexity: wiring, recharging... I am not sure it is really worth it, especially if you are using the U192 with a good source like the Bryston. 

[bodiebill]

Would the UPL also benefit from separate clean power, like the U?

[Ben75]

18 minutes ago, bodiebill said:

Would the UPL also benefit from separate clean power, like the U?

Great question! ^^' @hopkins may wanna try this in the coming future? 😉

 

38 minutes ago, hopkins said:

Hi @Ben75, I don't recall the comparison with the Curious cable, but i trust we tried it - I guess it did not strike me as particularly beneficial?

 

@Norton, the ECD cables are a safe bet.

 

As for batreries, any 3.7v lithium battery will do. But it adds complexity: wiring, recharging... I am not sure it is really worth it, especially if you are using the U192 with a good source like the Bryston. 

We tried last time we were at your flat. I would say that it is not significantly beneficial - in plus of the very expensive price of the Curious Cable!

What do you mean by "I am not sure it is really worth it"? 🙂

 

@Norton, if you want to get this cable (https://www.ghentaudio.com/usb/u21.html) I think it may work at least as great as the ECD USB for a smaller price and different technology/configuration (dual headed, so potentialy less diaphonic issues compared to UC250). And ultimately it may help others to find the best USB cable? 🙂

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

10 minutes ago, Ben75 said:

What do you mean by "I am not sure it is really worth it"? 🙂

 

Just the practical aspects of using battery supply have to be weighed against the slight benefit they may provide...

[seeteeyou]

FYI - if we weren't interested in Y-cable at all, here's a solution for motherboards with free PCIe slot(s) so that DC 5V could be fed externally via SATA power connector

 

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/taiko-audio-sgm-extreme-the-crème-de-la-crème.27433/page-141#post-628895

Quote

The stock USB port on the Extreme is probably the best sounding stock USB port I have heard. According to Emile, this port is based off of the ASM3142 chipset that he really likes.

 

USB 3.1 PCI Express Card 2-Ports Superspeed USB 3.1 10Gbps Raiser Adapter PCIE PCI-E 3.0 X4 ASMedia ASM3142 Chipset for Desktop

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32950854951.html

 

Delock PCIe X4 2X External USB 3.1 Gen2 A USB Controller

https://www.delock.com/produkt/90298/merkmale.html

https://www.amazon.com/Delock-PCIe-External-Gen2-Controller/dp/B07MQFZK9B

Quote

• Power supply via PCI Express interface or via SATA 15 pin power connector

 

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

1 hour ago, bodiebill said:

Would the UPL also benefit from separate clean power, like the U?

 

I briefly tested this, and it was inconclusive. I could not run the UPL on 3.7 batteries without also powering the USB key seperately. Honestly, I really don't think it is worth the effort. Powering the USB key seperately does present one advantage, however: using larger capacity drives, such as SSDs. Why? As you know I tested this because I used wav files containing single albums on a 1TB SSD. More about this later... 

[Ben75]

52 minutes ago, hopkins said:

 

Just the practical aspects of using battery supply have to be weighed against the slight benefit they may provide...

Have you already tried about powering the U192 through a battery wcoupled with a charging dock? How does it sound?

[bodiebill]

21 minutes ago, hopkins said:

As you know I tested this because I used wav files containing single albums on a 1TB SSD. More about this later... 

 

Thanks @hopkins for being so creative in enlarging the possibilities of the UPL, this brilliant but constrained device!

Happy to function as a sounding board and to try out betas...