ECdesigns

[Jacob]

Try to use MP3TAG program to fix the tags.

I dont rmember the whole prosidure that i did - need to practice it again.

 

But use the Tidal Gui for getting any file from Tidal so it is already taged and nothing to fix.

[matthias]

9 hours ago, hopkins said:

I remember they mentioned somewhere this would be for late 2021. Plenty of time for the PowerDAC concept to be fine tuned, and discussing it is premature. 

 

Agree,

just to get rid of misunderstanding, some basic info about the PowerDAC:

 

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/79452-building-ultimate-nos-dac-using-tda1541a-769.html#post6293442

 

Matt

 

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

53 minutes ago, matthias said:

 

Agree,

just to get rid of misunderstanding, some basic info about the PowerDAC:

 

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/79452-building-ultimate-nos-dac-using-tda1541a-769.html#post6293442

 

Matt

 

 

Useful indeed to read that link over again. 

 

My interest in that future development stemmed from my personal findings when experimenting with various setups, using the UPL (substitute here the U192 if you feel you have a good source to pair it with) and Fractal DAC. 

 

As John Brown explains, the benefits of the ECD source can easily be destroyed by poor amplification. And testing various amplification give surprising results... 

 

I have recently spend quite some time comparing 3 amplifiers: Lavardin ISX integrated amplifier, AudioPhonics Purifi amplifier, and ECD's own monoblocs (no longer sold). The best, by far, consists in using the ECD amplifiers directly connected to the DAC (no preamp). 

 

I used an excellent recording to test this, which also happens to be recorded at low volume, so you can play it at close to normal  listening volume without a preamp and with an amp that does not offer too much gain. This is what Arthur Salvatore refers to as the "Bolero Test". 

 

This is the recording: https://store.acousticsounds.com/d/49785/Bill_Berry_and_His_Ellington_All-Stars-For_Duke-CD

 

I am totally sold on the idea of the PowerDAC concept to provide low distortion "amplification" (though not in a traditional sense). 

 

The Purifi amplifier, for example, has an initial "wow" factor, but in spite of the stellar measurements, just does not provide a lifelike reproduction. I tested it with various preamps as well as without a preamp on its low-gain setting. 

 

The Lavardin is a good amp, but introduces distortion (in spite of its "low distortion" claims). Could be the preamp section that is inferior - no way of knowing. If you have heard nothing else, the Lavardin is still quite good, and gives a sense of "texture" as compared to lesser amps. 

 

The ECD amp has the best transparency IMO. When comparing the ECD amp without a preamp, on one hand, and with the ECD SVC preamp at maximum volume, on the other, you realize that the SVC introduces some degradation in sound quality as well (it is a good volume pot, but just that). Could be the added interconnect cables. But I also compared the ECD amps in the same way using the HorneShoppe's "The Truth" preamp, using the same interconnects, and they offer the maximum fidelity. Really lifelike and dynamic sound (within the limits of my modest speakers). 

 

I wish I had some really good tube amplification to carry out further comparisons, but I don't. 

 

So I am really curious to hear how this PowerDAC concept will enhance the fidelity even further. 

 

All this is only possible, IMO, due to the high quality of the ECD source. 

 

[Ben75]

12 hours ago, mevdinc said:

My bad. Thanks for the clarification Matt.

Last parenthesis about the PowerDAC - in order to avoid any misunderstanding:

 

What are the difference between DA96ETF and PowerDAC, accordin to John?

"Output voltage is now increased from +/-1V8 to +/-9V. Output impedance dropped from 375 Ohms (DA96ETF) to 1.7 Ohms (PowerDAC).

And now I can connect speakers directly to the output as there is enough output power (6W rms)."

 

PowerDAC will output 6Watts RMS which is a lot! John has a 90dB loudspeakers and the PowerDAC can drive much less efficient loudspeakers - especially in the bridged version that he would expect ot launch in the same time (late 2021) and that wil output 12W RMS.

 

And here is John's feedback about the power of this beast :

"At maximum voltage (+/-9V) it plays -very- loud, so loud I need hearing protection and this is only 2 x 6W rms. The final bridged output version offers 2 x 12W rms. The DC coupled circuit offers subsonic bass (below 20 Hz). At low voltage setting power consumption drops to 30W (stereo)."

 

So to avoid any misconception : the PowerDAC should be very capable to drive almost anything on the market...

@mevdinc : when the PowerDAC will be launched you may certainly give a try to the PowerDAC as it may be better than any active loudspeakers. (but the limit of this statement is that I have not heard the PowerDAC and don't know if this will fulfill our sonic expectations) Since then, if you could afford ot give a try to the UPL96ETL and Fractal DAC I would recommend you to do so. You won't regret it!

To anybody who will try to contradict me : I have heard one of the best active loudspeakers : the Kii Three + BXT (30,000 euros the pack). Despite its excellent reviews and success in the mastering sector, I could definitely say that the UPL96ETL + DA96ETF is far better than the previous solution. PowerDAC should be logicaly better than active loudspeakers as well as UPL96 + Fractal DAC combo. :-)

 

Now... let's focus on the DA96ETL and DA96ETF that are really masterpieces..

[Ben75]

2 hours ago, hopkins said:

 

Useful indeed to read that link over again. 

 

My interest in that future development stemmed from my personal findings when experimenting with various setups, using the UPL (substitute here the U192 if you feel you have a good source to pair it with) and Fractal DAC. 

 

As John Brown explains, the benefits of the ECD source can easily be destroyed by poor amplification. And testing various amplification give surprising results... 

 

I have recently spend quite some time comparing 3 amplifiers: Lavardin ISX integrated amplifier, AudioPhonics Purifi amplifier, and ECD's own monoblocs (no longer sold). The best, by far, consists in using the ECD amplifiers directly connected to the DAC (no preamp). 

 

I used an excellent recording to test this, which also happens to be recorded at low volume, so you can play it at close to normal  listening volume without a preamp and with an amp that does not offer too much gain. This is what Arthur Salvatore refers to as the "Bolero Test". 

 

This is the recording: https://store.acousticsounds.com/d/49785/Bill_Berry_and_His_Ellington_All-Stars-For_Duke-CD

 

I am totally sold on the idea of the PowerDAC concept to provide low distortion "amplification" (though not in a traditional sense). 

 

The Purifi amplifier, for example, has an initial "wow" factor, but in spite of the stellar measurements, just does not provide a lifelike reproduction. I tested it with various preamps as well as without a preamp on its low-gain setting. 

 

The Lavardin is a good amp, but introduces distortion (in spite of its "low distortion" claims). Could be the preamp section that is inferior - no way of knowing. If you have heard nothing else, the Lavardin is still quite good, and gives a sense of "texture" as compared to lesser amps. 

 

The ECD amp has the best transparency IMO. When comparing the ECD amp without a preamp, on one hand, and with the ECD SVC preamp at maximum volume, on the other, you realize that the SVC introduces some degradation in sound quality as well (it is a good volume pot, but just that). Could be the added interconnect cables. But I also compared the ECD amps in the same way using the HorneShoppe's "The Truth" preamp, using the same interconnects, and they offer the maximum fidelity. Really lifelike and dynamic sound (within the limits of my modest speakers). 

 

I wish I had some really good tube amplification to carry out further comparisons, but I don't. 

 

So I am really curious to hear how this PowerDAC concept will enhance the fidelity even further. 

 

All this is only possible, IMO, due to the high quality of the ECD source. 

 

According to my ears... I would say that the Lavardin was very disappointing and killed the transparency of the sound.

 

The SVC24 is quite good but not excellent, like the preamp "The Truth".

ECD PurIFI amplifier was not great at all I would say.. It can give some impressions of transparency but it never deliver the musicality we expect (poor timbres, tension in the sound, no coherence of the soundstage etc.).

I quote John :

"High frequencies are the enemy of every (digital) audio set. Using a SMPS plus a digital amplifierplus a DAC (sample frequency) is asking for the big troubles. Other problems with digital amplifiers are the comparator circuit (resolution, hysteresis, jitter), global feedback loop issues (time smearing effects), the power output stage (switching properties, propagation delay cross conduction issues) and the required imperfect passive low-pass filter

The very best linear power amplifiers are already highly problematic and these don't have all the disadvantages of a digital amplifier."

 

Or :

"My -personal- opinion about class D amps, not suitable for audiophile applications. Constant voltage steering is used and that results in unwanted speaker distortion. PWM introduces related distortion spectrum and a powerful switching noise spectrum. Class D amps internal clock must be synchronised with the clock of the digital audio source, if not inter-modulation occurs. Supply voltage must be -extremely- constant and totally free of any ripple voltage as this would change the PWM signal energy content and related output voltage. Clock needs to have -extremely- low jitter or we get similar jitter issues like with the DAC (DAC jitter issues multiplied by class D amplifier jitter issues).
The often applied comparator circuit (compares reference sawtooth or triangle clock with the analogue input signal) has limited resolution because of required hysteresis (to keep the comparator stable). The comparator also introduces more jitter. The required passive low-pass filter at the output will never be perfect and will introduce more (phase) distortion. The low-pass filter will interfere with the complex load (speaker) causing more distortion. Class D amps are very useful when saving power is most important and sound quality doesn't matter that much."

 

From my own experience (I have own a "great" Class D integrated amp from Goldnote over the past years) : what John say is correct.

[mevdinc]

31 minutes ago, Ben75 said:

Last parenthesis about the PowerDAC - in order to avoid any misunderstanding:

 

What are the difference between DA96ETF and PowerDAC, accordin to John?

"Output voltage is now increased from +/-1V8 to +/-9V. Output impedance dropped from 375 Ohms (DA96ETF) to 1.7 Ohms (PowerDAC).

And now I can connect speakers directly to the output as there is enough output power (6W rms)."

 

PowerDAC will output 6Watts RMS which is a lot! John has a 90dB loudspeakers and the PowerDAC can drive much less efficient loudspeakers - especially in the bridged version that he would expect ot launch in the same time (late 2021) and that wil output 12W RMS.

 

And here is John's feedback about the power of this beast :

"At maximum voltage (+/-9V) it plays -very- loud, so loud I need hearing protection and this is only 2 x 6W rms. The final bridged output version offers 2 x 12W rms. The DC coupled circuit offers subsonic bass (below 20 Hz). At low voltage setting power consumption drops to 30W (stereo)."

 

So to avoid any misconception : the PowerDAC should be very capable to drive almost anything on the market...

@mevdinc : when the PowerDAC will be launched you may certainly give a try to the PowerDAC as it may be better than any active loudspeakers. (but the limit of this statement is that I have not heard the PowerDAC and don't know if this will fulfill our sonic expectations) Since then, if you could afford ot give a try to the UPL96ETL and Fractal DAC I would recommend you to do so. You won't regret it!

To anybody who will try to contradict me : I have heard one of the best active loudspeakers : the Kii Three + BXT (30,000 euros the pack). Despite its excellent reviews and success in the mastering sector, I could definitely say that the UPL96ETL + DA96ETF is far better than the previous solution. PowerDAC should be logicaly better than active loudspeakers as well as UPL96 + Fractal DAC combo. :-)

 

Now... let's focus on the DA96ETL and DA96ETF that are really masterpieces..

Wow, 'better than any active loudspeakers' is a huge claim, to say the least.
Obviously, you haven't heard any of the top range active ATCs. I have heard both the Kii Three and Dutch and Dutch 8C side by side and preferred the sound of 8Cs. Neither can get anywhere near my active ATCs and not surprising as my speakers cost around £65K.

I am sure Fractal DAC is quite special as almost all the user experiences in this very topic indicate. And it seems PowerDAC will be very special too, but I would have to hear it myself. It will be very difficult to find a matching passive speaker to mate with it to beat most top range active speakers. If I am not mistaken, that's why ECdesigns is/will be providing a speaker system to go with it.

In the meantime, I will see if I can find a way to try out the Fractal DAC with my system.

Happy listening.

[Jacob]

1 hour ago, mevdinc said:

Wow, 'better than any active loudspeakers' is a huge claim, to say the least.
Obviously, you haven't heard any of the top range active ATCs. I have heard both the Kii Three and Dutch and Dutch 8C side by side and preferred the sound of 8Cs. Neither can get anywhere near my active ATCs and not surprising as my speakers cost around £65K.

I am sure Fractal DAC is quite special as almost all the user experiences in this very topic indicate. And it seems PowerDAC will be very special too, but I would have to hear it myself. It will be very difficult to find a matching passive speaker to mate with it to beat most top range active speakers. If I am not mistaken, that's why ECdesigns is/will be providing a speaker system to go with it.

In the meantime, I will see if I can find a way to try out the Fractal DAC with my system.

Happy listening.

Dont you worry at all about the speakers  - me and my friends here allready planning to build a special bookshelf speakers for the Headphones PowerDAC :):)

[matthias]

6 hours ago, mevdinc said:

Wow, 'better than any active loudspeakers' is a huge claim, to say the leas

 

Some serious guys from the Swedish Lejonklou forum found the ATC100s passive with Lejonklou amps more musical sounding than active ATC100s.

Sorry for OT.

 

Matt

[matthias]

6 hours ago, mevdinc said:

It will be very difficult to find a matching passive speaker to mate with it to beat most top range active speakers.

 

I expect the PowerDAC to work superbly driving passive speakers with a higher sensitivity than 90dB.

IMO, the source components with the amp are much more important than the speakers.

 

Matt

[mevdinc]

3 hours ago, matthias said:

 

Some serious guys from the Swedish Lejonklou forum found the ATC100s passive with Lejonklou amps more musical sounding than active ATC100s.

Sorry for OT.

 

Matt

These things are also very subjective and matching components may give results more suited to one's own preference. In my experience (and many others I know) the active design always betters the passive regardless of the speaker brand.

However, I will definitely try and give the Fractal DAC and UPL96 combo a listen to see how it compares with my existing DAC.

Thanks for all your input and comments.
 

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

2 hours ago, matthias said:

 

IMO, the source components with the amp are much more important than the speakers.

 

Matt

 

Not sure I agree with you on that point.

 

Speakers can also introduce loss or distortion, just like any other audio component.

 

You can certainly get very good sound with an average source and excellent speakers - which is why this topic is so controversial. Most of us have to live with compromises... 

 

Mitchco's excellent review of the Purifi speaker, for example, gives a good illustration of the challenges in speaker design:

 

 

I'd be curious to listen to that particular speaker at some point. Of course there are many others out there to be heard as well. 

 

 

 

 

[matthias]

1 hour ago, hopkins said:

Mitchco's excellent review of the Purifi speaker, for example, gives a good illustration of the challenges in speaker design:

 

Agree,

very interesting for sure.

However, certainly not suitable in the context of the PowerDAC.

 

Matt

[realDHT]

11 hours ago, mevdinc said:

Wow, 'better than any active loudspeakers' is a huge claim, to say the least.
Obviously, you haven't heard any of the top range active ATCs. I have heard both the Kii Three and Dutch and Dutch 8C side by side and preferred the sound of 8Cs. Neither can get anywhere near my active ATCs and not surprising as my speakers cost around £65K.

I am sure Fractal DAC is quite special as almost all the user experiences in this very topic indicate. And it seems PowerDAC will be very special too, but I would have to hear it myself. It will be very difficult to find a matching passive speaker to mate with it to beat most top range active speakers. If I am not mistaken, that's why ECdesigns is/will be providing a speaker system to go with it.

In the meantime, I will see if I can find a way to try out the Fractal DAC with my system.

Happy listening.

'Better' is always very subjective and in the end comes down to personal preference and system matching. 

I agree that active speakers is a very good solution, the best for many (I use active dipole speakers myself). 

On the other hand, I would guess the powerdac will be spectacular with for example the best single element Lowther speakers..

 

 

 

[matthias]

I am sure the existing devices of ECD (as good as they may be) are only a testbed for the PowerDAC.

 

The PowerDAC will be their landmark product and I think the chance is good that it is the pinnacle in DAC design, at least with high sensitivity speakers.

 

Looking very much forward to it 😃

 

Matt

[Ben75]

@matthias : Can you please stop to say false/inaccurate things please ?

 

1) PowerDAC will not be for only high-sensitivoty speakers. 

2) "I am sure the existing devices of ECD (as good as they may be) are only a testbed for the PowerDAC."

This is false. ECDesigns launched final products here that are sufficient to themselves. PowerDAC are expected to prolongate/follow this innovation by integrating all of those element in one whole solution. UPL96/Fractal DAC duo, for instance, will never be erased from ECD market offering. They will be priced differently.

3) "PowerDAC should be logicaly better than active loudspeakers as well as UPL96 + Fractal DAC combo. :-)"

May I correct myself? "PowerDAC should LOGICALY be better than any active loudspeakers WHEN USED WITH A HIGHLY TRANSPARENT LOUDSPEAKERS. :-)

4) PowerDAC is not the subject of this thread. Topic closed for me.

[matthias]

34 minutes ago, Ben75 said:

1) PowerDAC will not be for only high-sensitivoty speakers. 

4) PowerDAC is not the subject of this thread. Topic closed for me.

 

ad1.)

ECD: Efficiency is low (15% max.) so it is primarily intended for driving efficient speakers (90dB and up) and it is ideal for driving headphones

ad4.)

The subject of this thread is simple ECdesigns

 

Matt

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

They are probably still working on all this, so there is no point in arguing about it. We just have to wait!

 

Chances are the products that will eventually come out will not correspond exactly to the little we know of them today. 

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

On 10/19/2020 at 9:36 PM, hopkins said:

 

The ECD amp has the best transparency IMO. When comparing the ECD amp without a preamp, on one hand, and with the ECD SVC preamp at maximum volume, on the other, you realize that the SVC introduces some degradation in sound quality as well (it is a good volume pot, but just that). Could be the added interconnect cables. But I also compared the ECD amps in the same way using the HorneShoppe's "The Truth" preamp, using the same interconnects, and they offer the maximum fidelity. 

 

Concerning the issue with ECD's SVC I asked ECD about it and I am using the wrong combination of SVCs (you'll notice there are two versions on their website) with the DA96, so am getting this sorted out and will report back after. Not sure there are too many customers with both SVCs and DA96ETF, so it may be of limited interest, but I thought it preferable to inform others anyway.  I am curious to see how the SVC will perform after. 

[Ben75]

@Superdad: Did you purchase a UP96ETL and Fractal DAC combo? If yes, what is your experience so far?

[Norton]

15 hours ago, hopkins said:

am using the wrong combination of SVCs (you'll notice there are two versions on their website)

Hi Hopkins

 

I was thinking about getting the SVC - do you mean that you got the SVC(U) rather than the one dedicated to DAC96?  Or do you mean the SVC from the previous product generation?

 

When they first released the new products there was an interesting and inexpensive matching  dual-mono HP amp which could also partner with high sensitivity speakers, but seems to have disappeared from website, anyone know what happened to this?
 

 

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

3 minutes ago, Norton said:

Hi Hopkins

 

I was thinking about getting the SVC - do you mean that you got the SVC(U) rather than the one dedicated to DAC96?  Or do you mean the SVC from the previous product generation?

 

When they first released the new products there was an interesting and inexpensive matching  dual-mono HP amp which could also partner with high sensitivity speakers, but seems to have disappeared from website, anyone know what happened to this?
 

 

 

Hi Norton, 

 

I have the current product line SVC, but got it before the SVCU came out, so I am not exactly sure which one I have! The best thing would be for you to write to ECD and ask them which one to get based on your configuration. 

 

The mono amps you mention are the ones I have. I am not sure why they were discontinued, because I like them a lot, as should be clear from the comparisons I reported above.

[Norton]

25 minutes ago, hopkins said:

 

Hi Norton, 

 

I have the current product line SVC, but got it before the SVCU came out, so I am not exactly sure which one I have! The best thing would be for you to write to ECD and ask them which one to get based on your configuration. 

 

The mono amps you mention are the ones I have. I am not sure why they were discontinued, because I like them a lot, as should be clear from the comparisons I reported above.

Thanks.  Yes, I’ve never understood why the DAC96 needs a different version of a passive vol control.

 

The amp I mentioned is not the monoblocs that I think you have, but a stereo HP amp they released with the latest products and styled accordingly.  It had two psus and (I think ) separate L&R HP outputs.  ECD advised it could also power  very sensitive speakers via an adaptor, but it was withdrawn from sale v quickly.

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

34 minutes ago, Norton said:

Thanks.  Yes, I’ve never understood why the DAC96 needs a different version of a passive vol control.

 

The amp I mentioned is not the monoblocs that I think you have, but a stereo HP amp they released with the latest products and styled accordingly.  It had two psus and (I think ) separate L&R HP outputs.  ECD advised it could also power  very sensitive speakers via an adaptor, but it was withdrawn from sale v quickly.

 

From what I understand, the compatibility issues has to do with impedance. 

 

You may be referring to a headphone amp (that could pethaps be used with some speakers as well, as you mentioned). I think it was abandonned due to the future PowerDAC projects. 

[Superdad]

9 hours ago, Ben75 said:

@Superdad: Did you purchase a UP96ETL and Fractal DAC combo? If yes, what is your experience so far?

I have not purchased them.  Still considering it but just have been way too busy with my own business. Demand for EtherREGEN, JS-2, UltraCap, and ISO REGEN are all through the roof this year.  As my wife and friends will attest, I have no time to even enjoy our success.  Plus we are very busy with other new product development.

However I am treating myself by finally replacing my 20 year old minivan (with major driveshaft vibration at 24mph and 48mph) with a new Honda truck so that next year we can tow a small travel trailer on some trips. 

[realDHT]

6 hours ago, Norton said:

Thanks.  Yes, I’ve never understood why the DAC96 needs a different version of a passive vol control.

 

It is because the DA96 has a 375 ohm resistive output. Usually attenuators contain a high value series resistor which would then add to the DA96 output impedance, making it way too high and affecting the sound. The SVC is a shunt attenuator, so it has near zero series resistance, the attenuator resistors only shunt to ground. At your selected volume setting, the DA96 output resistor will form a voltage divider with the selected shunt resistor in the attenuator.