IKEA bamboo cutting board and Herbie's Audio Lab Tenderfeet

[InfernoSTi]

To further discuss the idea of isolation, here is what I *think* I understand. Please correct me where I'm wrong.

 

From what I have read, there are two directions that vibrations can be transferred: from the equipment to the floor/rack and from the floor/rack to the equipment. The idea, as I understand it, is to isolate the two via a board (in this case bamboo, in other cases maple, etc). Ideally, you would have the board isolated from the floor/rack AND the equipment isolated from the board. The would effectively isolate the transmission in both directions. Overkill? Probably.

 

So one direction is all you need? Then you have to decide if you are going to couple the board to the floor/rack (and decouple the equipment) or couple the equipment to the board (and decouple the board from the floor/rack). Since the board will have a natural resonance that is unknown, I would argue it is a smarter choice to decouple the equipment from the board.

 

This also, apparently only deals with horizontal vibrations. Vertical vibrations are addressed by decoupling via mag lev stands (!!!).

 

In summary (and from what I have read), the idea coupling the equipment to the board doesn't deal well with the resonate frequency of the board nor does it address the two way transmission of vibration without some form of decoupling.

 

So there is vibration transmission (two directions), there is the resonance of the material, and there is coupling and decoupling. The issue of resonance is important if you couple the equipment to the board (or floor/rack). Whatever the equipment is coupled to will change the resonant frequency of the equipment. It will also allow the transmission of vibration freely between the two.

 

Isolation can never be "coupling" (that is the opposite of isolation...by definition a "connection"). Isolation can only occur if you decouple. So if your goal is isolation, somewhere you have to decouple, not couple.

 

Again, this is just from what I have read but it seems to make sense...I might be all wrong on this, of course.

[esimms86]

I won't argue isolation vs. coupling but music listening through bamboo board and Tenderfeet combo together sounds more coherent to me than just listening through either alone. My ears may be 63 years old but the equipment I'm using, at least, is not a limiting factor(see my 1st post in this thread for details). I do now have some Stillpoints Ultra SS devices on order and expect a significant step up in sound quality over Herbie's already excellent Tenderfeet. This obviously moves me away from isolation and into the realm of coupling. My original point, however, still holds in that I find the bamboo/Tenderfeet combo to give an awesome return on the dollar.

 

Regarding the Stillpoints, quantifying any perceived improvement will be an impossible task, as these types of assessments always are. For me, the real test will be whether the improvement exceeds any expectation bias and is, more importantly, enough to justify me keeping the Stillpoints devices vs. returning within 60 days for a refund. Will report back here with my findings.

 

The Stillpoints obviously move me away from a budget solution but I agree that purchasing Stillpoints Utra 5's at 4200 USD(what my Mapleshade stands for my Gallos Stradas would require) is a bit rich for blood and hard to justify, at least for now.

 

Like everything else in this hobby, a trip down the rabbit hole can prove to be more like a journey to the center of the earth.

[sdolezalek]

Given the breadth of positive user support for isolation/coupling devices like Stillpoints, I am surprised that a higher volume manufacturer hasn't come out with a more affordable solution. I know that there is expensive machining involved in making Stillpoints, but I fully agree that spending multiple thousands on these devices is a tough decision and a reflection of low volumes and/or high margins that esoteric audio components seem to be able to command.

 

Somewhere between a bicycle tube and a couple thousand per component set of isolation feet, there ought to be a market sweet spot?

[AudioDoctor]

Inferno, I think we are talking about the same thing from two different directions...

 

It is my understanding that the equipment should be coupled to the bamboo board, but that the bamboo, whatever it is set on should be isolated as much as possible from the outside. If that means each board is decoupled from the surroundings, or if it means the rack as a whole is decoupled is up to each of us individually. But, IMO the equipment sitting on the board should be coupled to get the vibrations from the equipment into the board, that is its purpose.

[Guidof]

Empirically, I found that what works best for me is double thickness of E.V.A. Anti vibration pads between electronics and Ikea bamboo boards and between speakers and floor. At less than 50 cents each for the pads, it's also a very inexpensive solution. The enhancement in clarity and soundstage versus spikes and other arrangements has been startling.

 

Guido F.

[kennyb123]

Regarding the Stillpoints, quantifying any perceived improvement will be an impossible task, as these types of assessments always are. For me, the real test will be whether the improvement exceeds any expectation bias and is, more importantly, enough to justify me keeping the Stillpoints devices vs. returning within 60 days for a refund. Will report back here with my findings.

 

Be careful. Stillpoints are the audiophile equivalent of crack cocaine. You will want to add more once you hear what they do. :-)

[lmf22]

Be careful. Stillpoints are the audiophile equivalent of crack cocaine. You will want to add more once you hear what they do. :-)

 

True. I started with a set of 3 Stillpoints Ultra SS under my integrated amp. Within 2 months, I got more Ultra SS for the power conditioner and power supply upgrade for the amp, and Ultra Mini for the DAC and headphone amp.

[madaboutaudio]

found some interesting feets here:

9th MO: Tunable Isolation Feet for Turntable/CD/Blu-Ray players (MO is closed)

 

Coil Spring feets:

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3676/10033802854_89c1ba1cf2_b.jpg

 

some kind of silica gel:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7396/10050914306_000c144b51_b.jpg

[christopher3393]

Welcome,

 

Can you say why you found them interesting?

[blaven]

I understand how isolation can work on a speaker, turntable, CD player, or amplifier.

 

I have a much harder time understanding how isolation would work for a DAC, USB/SPDF converter, or preamplifier.

[madaboutaudio]

I understand how isolation can work on a speaker, turntable, CD player, or amplifier.

 

I have a much harder time understanding how isolation would work for a DAC, USB/SPDF converter, or preamplifier.

 

Crystal Clock Generators in DACs operates via Quartz vibration, which technically is a mechanical operation.

 

Clock generator - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

Also we don't know how tiny vibration affects things on the atomic or molecular level.

 

Power Transformers also do generate sound vibrations via buzz and hum.

 

Maybe there are forces and effects incomprehensible or unstudied by human science but can be felt by human senses. e.g. the 3rd/5th/7th level harmonic distortions(generated by electronics,speakers,ac power) from frequencies beyond human hearing, do they get seeped into the audible range?

 

e.g. they used to believe the world is flat(no such thing as universe) and not round, but now we also know the planet Earth is not a symmetrical round shape.

[madaboutaudio]

Welcome,

 

Can you say why you found them interesting?

 

Interesting as in curious to know how they perform in comparsion to bamboo boards and other damping/isolation/vibration grounding materials.

[wdw]

So you guys putting the board below the unit and then, say, stllpoints/sort kones under

 

Or

 

Unit, stilpoint/sort kone and then board?

 

Cheers, wdw

[InfernoSTi]

So you guys putting the board below the unit and then, say, stllpoints/sort kones under

 

Or

 

Unit, stilpoint/sort kone and then board?

 

Cheers, wdw

 

This is the debate. So if you couple the equipment to the board (spikes) the decouple the board from the floor/rack, that allows the board to dampen the equipment (change the resonant frequency if you will). Some say this is helpful, others say this is random (sometimes helpful, sometimes not). The reason they say it is not is that the added dampening/resonant value is (A) not known and (B) may not be linear.

 

Please also note that Stillpoints and Kones are doing the opposite things: Stillpoints decouple and Kones couple. So whatever you try, know that from the beginning.

 

So it seems that sometimes it improves the sound, sometimes it diminishes the sound.

 

Please someone post their correction on this summary on this point?

 

John

[wdw]

This is the debate. So if you couple the equipment to the board (spikes) the decouple the board from the floor/rack, that allows the board to dampen the equipment (change the resonant frequency if you will). Some say this is helpful, others say this is random (sometimes helpful, sometimes not). The reason they say it is not is that the added dampening/resonant value is (A) not known and (B) may not be linear.

 

Please also note that Stillpoints and Kones are doing the opposite things: Stillpoints decouple and Kones couple. So whatever you try, know that from the beginning.

 

So it seems that sometimes it improves the sound, sometimes it diminishes the sound.

 

Please someone post their correction on this summary on this point?

 

John

 

One minor quibble....the Sort Kones de-couple similar to the Still Points...and, as you say, rigid cones do couple.... Are we nuts, or what? ;-)

Hope others will chime in....

[InfernoSTi]

One minor quibble....the Sort Kones de-couple similar to the Still Points...and, as you say, rigid cones do couple.... Are we nuts, or what? ;-)

Hope others will chime in....

 

I love quibbles. Please forgive my quibble response, but here is why I said the Sort Kones were couplers:

 

Because they couple in one direction (and decouple in the other, supposedly). Since they distinguish themselves from "isolators" that decouple, I felt they believed themselves to be couplers. Stillpoints are the *best* isolators while Sort Kones are the *best* couplers (not my opinion but the author's opinion from the original article even though he uses the term couple and isolation as if they were the same thing and not the opposite thing).

 

This is the Sort Kone information (copied word for word but with my emphasis added in bold):

 

Nordost's latest resonance control solution, the Sort Kone is a revolutionary approach to the problem of supporting sensitive electronics. The Sort Kone is a sophisticated, directly coupled and mechanically tuned device which channels vibration away from the chassis, allowing the internal components to operate more effectively. Sold individually, Sort Kones may be configured in a number of ways to properly "sort" out your components. We generally recommend starting with three Sort Kones in a triangle configuration and adding more as necessary. Nordost has assured us there are no practical weight limits for Sort Kones.

 

Isolation Devices vs Sort Kones

There are many vibration control devices referred to as Isolation Devices, but this completely misses the nature of the problem. External vibration and interference is certainly a problem, however the most harmful mechanical energy is generated internally by the audio circuits and their power supplies. Transformers, power supply capacitors, even active devices such as DACs and transistors, all vibrate as they operate – and those vibrations occur right where the fragile signal is. These vibrations create timing errors which smear and distort the music, reducing resolution and skewing the tonal balance. Nordost developed the Sort Kone specifically to deal with this threat to audio fidelity.

 

How Sort Kones Work

The Sort Kone acts like a diode, allowing energy to pass one way, but not return. Vibration from the component enters the Sort Kone via its metal conductor and is channeled through the bearing into the base of the Sort Kone where it is dissipated. The energy present on the rack's shelf, however, cannot return back through the Sort Kone into the component. This is what makes the Sort Kone so unique and so effective. With each step up the Sort Kone line, conductivity of the materials improves increasing effectiveness of isolation and wringing even more astounding sonic improvements from your system.

[InfernoSTi]

One point that was raised by Barry D in the other thread deals with resonance frequencies and it is worth repeating here:

 

According to a very interesting article by Shannon Dickson several years ago, isolation *begins* at ~1.4x the resonant frequency of the isolator. My experience has been that the most effective isolators will have resonance frequencies in the low single digits. With isolation beginning at ~1.4x this frequency, the result is a roll off (i.e., isolation) that begins well below the audible range, with increasing isolation as frequency goes up.

 

With something like a good roller bearing or air bearing design, the resonance, hopefully around 3 Hz or less, will result in isolation (roll off) beginning at under 5 Hz.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

Barry Diament Audio

 

The reason this is so key to this discussion is if one couples to the bamboo board, it changes the resonant frequency of the equipment. However, this is unknown. Since isolation begins at 1.4x the resonant frequency, the theory is that low single digits are required to have the isolation be linear. As I understand it, for example, if the resonant frequency is lowered to 40 Hz, then the isolation is from 56 Hz and you can get non-linear bass. The higher the resonant value, the more non-linear the result becomes into the listening range.

 

Since you don't know the resonance of the coupled bamboo board, you don't know what the effect might be. This may be why the larger maple boards are used (they should have a lower resonance than a thiner maple board). This is also why coupling the board with spikes to a concrete floor can help lower the resonant frequency of the board (in theory, right?).

 

What are folks thoughts on this idea? Again, I am learning here, not teaching, so I may be wrong...

 

John

[robbbby]

I'm still trying to figure out the best way to go about having equipment on a floating floor (hardwood floor over subfloor on top of floor joists. Couple or isolate.

[esimms86]

I'm still trying to figure out the best way to go about having equipment on a floating floor (hardwood floor over subfloor on top of floor joists. Couple or isolate.

 

The following link from Mapleshade Audio's website may be helpful(and, hopefully, not confusing):

 

Vibration Control For Speakers-shop.mapleshadestore.com

 

Here also is info from Mapleshade regarding addressing floor problems with their Gallo Strada 2 speakers. The go on to recommend an additional maple plinth to their configuration to arrive at their optimal solution. Though this is meant to apply to the Strads, it should alsp apply for other speaker models. For the record, I have the original Gallo Strada speakers mounted onto Mapleshade speaker stands with Mapleshade Heavyfeet spikes coupling the speakers to the carpeted floor. I do NOT have the maple plinths. There are many pictures of speakers atop additional maple plinths on the Mapleshade website.

 

While the improvement in sound was immediately apparent to both me and my wife(who was casually listening and expecting nothing more than a shift in room cosmetics - that is, taking the speakers off of Gallo metal floor mounting stands). BTW, I have no affiliation with Mapleshade outside of being the purchaser (at full price) of a few of their products.

 

I would further add that Barry Diament would argue against the Heavyfeet spikes as he is in favor of not using the floors coupling to the speakers(the floor effectively then serving to drive the speakers).

 

Addressing Floor Problems

 

The single most important factor in determining whether a room sounds good is the structure of the floor; in comparison, room size and shape are minor players. That is simply because the floor is the direct sink for receiving the vibration that is drained out of the speaker enclosure via the speaker’s spikes or footers-and it is essential to drain that vibration in order to get really first rate sound out of the speaker.

 

A good sounding floor is one that accepts enclosure vibration efficiently and cleanly while reflecting almost no energy back into the speaker. Careful listening tests show that the best floors are old-fashioned plank-on-heavy-joist floors, preferably 3/4” or thicker planks of maple. Next best are spruce or pine. Least desirable acoustically are oak floors, though they are still very much to be preferred to the floors listed below.

 

The worst floors we have tested are concrete, carpet-over-concrete, wood-laminate-over-concrete, tile, granite, marble or brick. Such materials reflect back almost all of the vibrations they receive-and reflect those vibrations back in highly distorted, out of phase form. That greatly muddies and weakens the speaker’s bass while smearing and harshening the midrange and treble. Almost as bad are the modern plywood-based floors, particularly ones that use treated wood laminate planking, acoustic damping layers, and/or “engineered” wood support trusses: they make fine speakers sound astonishingly dead in the bass with lifeless, over damped treble.

 

Mounting the Strada on our maple Upgrade Stand goes a long way towards alleviating these major floor problems. However, the sonic degradation effect of bad floors is so powerful that a second layer of massive maple yields further and very worthwhile improvements in the sound of the Strada. For those who have problem floors and wish to hear the full, world class potential of the Strada, we recommend adding, at some point in time, a 12 x15 x 4 (or, even better, a 15 x 18 x 4) Maple Speaker Plinth under the Strada Upgrade Stand.

[esimms86]

An update on the Stillpoints placed between components(PS Audio P5 power conditioner and Marantz PM KI integrated receiver) and IKEA bamboo boards.

 

I experienced another immediately apparent improvement in sound detail and coherence by replacing the Herbie's Tenderfeet with the Stillpoints Utra SS(4 per component). This is judged particularly by listening to the Beatles' "I Am the Walrus" in 24/44.1, amongst other music. I have listening to IATW since it's initial release on vinyl and so I know it especially well. I also listened to Joan Armatrading's Greatest Hits, another long time favorite of mine though nothing special for audiophile purposes, and heard the rhythm section locked in together like never before. In each case, the degree of improvement was akin to difference experienced when going from room based loudspeaker production to headphone based listening with Stax SR009's. I have 4 more Ultra SS devices on the way to mate with a 3rd IKEA bamboo board and my KGBH tube headphone amplifier.

[odelay]

An ode to timber

 

Good to re-read Pierre's thoughts on the Strada's (that I too use).

Having used Gallo's wall mounts on my brick wall, I would totally agree with his comments about concrete. Despite being screwed in tight to the wall, my solid-core speaker cable would vibrate noticeably.

 

Inspired by Pierre's stands, I added timber posts between the brick wall and speakers. The same solid-core speaker wires no longer danced. Moreover, resolution improved. A low-level distortion was removed.

 

I have floating (jarrah) timber floors. My sub sits on two layers of timber. (Each with steel nuts as 'feet'). Two layers were found to be better than one.

 

You guys have made me wonder what bamboo would bring to the table... ;-)

[AnotherSpin]

Given the "bargain' tone of this thread, I thought the gliders were a nice product to think about. Perhaps I'm missing something key. Please advise?

I am very much satisfied with implementation of Barry's idea of using bowls/balls combos underneath speakers and all important components. It is not so expensive and gives very clear improvement of sound. Slightly tricky in installation (you may need another pair of hands while getting heavy floorstanders on a top of bowls/balls) but after you finish with this the only trick left to perform will be to uncorck the bottle of good wine and fill the glass to celebrate the great improvement of your listening experience

[odelay]

Putting one of those big bamboo chopping blocks under my subwoofer helped a bunch. I had it on two layers of heavy timber, but think bamboo works better.

 

Thanks guys for enlightening me on yet another use for this most sustainable grass ?

[Solstice380]

Here is a brief write-up I did on coupling / isolation over on the Uptone REGEN / Which DAC thread. Maybe I should have posted it here. It may be enlightening to read. Vibration isolation and control can be a deep topic at this level. Just like getting the best out of an audio recording or component. :-)

 

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/uptone-regen-and-your-digital-analogue-converter-what-digital-analogue-converter-do-you-use-24410/index6.html#post426533

[andru26]

I have recently discovered the IKEA bamboo butcher boards and I wanted to share my experience with them:

Initailly I thought I should experiment by purchasing 2 of them and placing one under my power amp and the second under my DAC+JS2. By doing so, I felt there was a bit more coherence in the sound, so I decided to move forward and to buy 2 more (1 for Audio PC and 1 for Preamp). In addition I purchased a set of AVSKILD ( 4pcs of cork placemats) and to place one of them under each bamboo board. Not sure about the cork placemats influence, however once each component had its own butcher board, the sound of my system completely changed in all aspects: lower noise floor, attack, decay, transients and above all it became extremely realistic. This means that before the IKEA boards came into my system, I have always felt that something was missing from the sound, as my brain was never "fooled" into believing that the sound was lifelike. But now, the music sounds like it's performing live in my room with every instrument and voice being reproduced with such fine details and naturaless.

 

I forgot to mention that the bass has become tighter and better controlled.

 

To me, this is the biggest revelation I had so far and it's definitely the best investment I made for my system. I highly recommend bamboo boards and possibbly the cork placemats, but the takeaway from my experience is that no component should be left out, as everything matters as a whole.