HQ Player

[Mops911]

27 minutes ago, Miska said:

You'd generally want low power device

 

Makes sense now you prefer https://up-shop.org/up-squared-gateway-pentium-n4200-w-8g-memory-64g-emmc-board-w-ovesa-plate.html

as NAA as shared earlier. Even better than a RPi 3 or 4 for which you also offer images?

[Jud]

2 hours ago, Miska said:

 

What do you mean by CPU to work half as hard? I don't think it makes notable difference from CPU point of view.

 

 

Not overall across all its tasks, but specifically in oversampling to a given rate, say DSD256, isn't a CPU on MacOS going to be doing the equivalent work on that task of a CPU on Linux or Windows oversampling to DSD512?

[Luca72c]

1 hour ago, Miska said:

Not directly no. Sometimes indirectly depending on the hardware and system in question.

Then, in a dedicated music reproduction/server PC system, what's the reason for not choosing the only OS solution that combines very low (or non-existent) price, maximum software availability (including ASIO drivers that do reproduce native DSD even if the OS doesn't support it), maximum hardware compatiblity and easiest and fastest operation even for non-IT-savy users? That solution is Windows 10...

I would consider another choice if it should guarantee better performance, and for years i believed that this was true, this misbelief being induced by popular tech-savy theories about windows' hundreds of threads slowing down the PC, windows' scheduler not being "clever" and so on. Then i decided to test if all that was effectively, practically true in an audio PC: so i compared, on my dedicated PC, a light linux installation (that should provide best performances, according to those theories) and a normal windows 10 one, using HQPlayer, HQPlayer Embedded (on Linux only), LMS, Roon and other audio softwares.

Guess what? After many months of testing and hundreds hours of play from the 2 OSes, i have to say that THERE'S ABSOLUTELY NO PERFORMANCE DIFFERENCE, not even minimal, between windows and linux, at least in my use case, when run on the same hardware. In more than 2 years, any filters/modulators combination i tried either works ok without dropouts in linux AND in windows, or has dropouts in linux AND in windows. Absolutely no difference, not a single more dropout in windows, not even one time in 2 years. And no other problems on windows too, no screen saver disappearing, no incomprehensible behaviour, no "illogical  Microsoft choices", simply a stable, working, easy to use system that does what i want when i want: play music. Just one time in 2 years i had to wait for a system update to complete, some 10 minutes of wait before starting playing music. Maybe i am simply very very lucky? I don't think so, but who knows...

In addition: you want to drive some new piece of hardware (any significant hardware)? Easy: install driver and plug and play. You have a Realtek NIC? Easy, just install Realtek driver and it works ok. You want to connect a NAA? Easy, it's easily discovered and connected (even using disliked Realtek NIC, of course). You want to manage a SOC NAA? No problem, plenty of easy to use apps to manage ssh connections, transfer files, write bootable media, etc... You want to open and use a drive formatted in other OSes? Easy, there's plenty of drivers and apps allowing that, just a 1 minute search - all easy to use, GUI operated and intuitive. You want to use SMB v.1 file server? Just thick the relative option in windows. You want to play native DSD? Easy, just press play, nothing to worry. You want to use REW, Acourate, Audiolense, loopback driver and many other audio (free or still affordable) great programs? Just download, install and go.

In general, much much time saved (expecially compared to linux), that i can use doing what we all like: listening music.

More, even if it seems impossible to me too (and i didn't believe it too at first, so i had to listen very accurately doing blind tests and including some friends too), i have to admit that HQPlayer on windows 10 (not windows 7 or windows server) sounds better (for my taste) than on linux, even using NAA. Plain windows 10, no fidelizer nor similar tools, just a strange program from BHE called "all core any cure" that i don't even know what's about (i think it's a sort of precursor of current "minority clean" app). Really i can't explain how this can be, but if i hear something many times, i can't deny it: doing that would mean trusting theories more than facts.

Now, i understand Miska disregard for windows from a developer point of view and it does make sense. But i'm not a developer, i'm an user, so given the above, i really can't see any practical point for not simply using windows 10 for a dedicated, HQP based music reproduction PC system. But maybe other more philosophical or theoretical (or even political) reasons are involved, and i surely am not able (nor willing) to discuss about them, so it's clear that everyone can do whatever he wants and nobody can blame him for doing that.

Just wanted to make clear also these facts, for any user that could be deceived by some confusing statements i sometimes read in audiophiles forums...

[kelvinwsy]

IMHO you should download awindows Server 2019 and Windows LTSC and do a shootout with Win 10 Pro... It is as clear as Night and Day.. top rank and descending order to wirst

Windows Server 2019 Core Mode

Windows Server 2019 GUI

Windows Server 2016 Core

Windows LTSC

Windows 10 Pro

NB all running Hqplayer Desktop 

and For WinServer 2016 and 2019 you need AudioOptimizer for Hqplayer to work

What are the sonic differences? A sense of calm, quieter background .. less or no congestionwhen the playback volune is raised on WinServer 2019 with AO3 compare to LTSC( I upgraded my winserver 2016 to 2019 Core)

Windows 10 Pro is noisy, cluttered sound and congestion in the Sound .. most subtle ambinent or hall effects ( natural or DSP) gets buried in the noise. As a result SQ, Sound Stage Depth , Separation , enganced "body" to voices and instruments , deeper and clearer bass and sweeter cleaner highs all all evudent on a Winserver 2028/AO Hqplayer playbk PC.. 5 mintes comparison is all it takes

Happy listening

 

 

[Jean Paul D]

17 hours ago, Miska said:

 

 

 

 

In any case it won't work decently for video use, because there is over one second processing delay.

 

back to my Hijack/Loopback question : why does it not stick in Preferences ? (I can choose a Loopback instance as Input but Desktop says it can't assign requested address and reverts to default.

 

Delay can be taken care of for videos in VLC or IINA and would not be a problem while capturing radio web site

[Miska]

8 hours ago, Mops911 said:

Makes sense now you prefer https://up-shop.org/up-squared-gateway-pentium-n4200-w-8g-memory-64g-emmc-board-w-ovesa-plate.html

as NAA as shared earlier. Even better than a RPi 3 or 4 for which you also offer images?

 

Not the UP-Squared, but the UP-Board (Gateway system):

https://up-shop.org/up-gateway-atom-x5-z8350-w-4g-memory-32g-emmc-board-w-vesa-plate.html

 

Squared is fine for running Embedded on HQPlayer OS, if you don't need heavy processing. For simple PCM upsampling and such.

 

Certainly better than Pi3, because Pi3 has hardware design faults and too much cost cutting which makes it useless for a NAA that would use USB for the DAC.

 

Pi4 could be decent too, but I like the UP-Board more. I have not found nice heatsink cases for Pi4 for example. And the power connector is tricky (USB Type-C).

 

[Luca72c]

5 hours ago, kelvinwsy said:

IMHO you should download awindows Server 2019 and Windows LTSC and do a shootout with Win 10 Pro... It is as clear as Night and Day.. top rank and descending order to wirst

Windows Server 2019 Core Mode

Windows Server 2019 GUI

Windows Server 2016 Core

Windows LTSC

Windows 10 Pro

NB all running Hqplayer Desktop 

and For WinServer 2016 and 2019 you need AudioOptimizer for Hqplayer to work

What are the sonic differences? A sense of calm, quieter background .. less or no congestionwhen the playback volune is raised on WinServer 2019 with AO3 compare to LTSC( I upgraded my winserver 2016 to 2019 Core)

Windows 10 Pro is noisy, cluttered sound and congestion in the Sound .. most subtle ambinent or hall effects ( natural or DSP) gets buried in the noise. As a result SQ, Sound Stage Depth , Separation , enganced "body" to voices and instruments , deeper and clearer bass and sweeter cleaner highs all all evudent on a Winserver 2028/AO Hqplayer playbk PC.. 5 mintes comparison is all it takes

Happy listening

 

 

 

Thank you, i'll try as soon as i can. Anyway, i have tried to avoid stating that windows 10 sounds better than linux in a absolute way, as "better" is an individual, subjective evaluation. It just sounds better to my taste. I just report being there a sound difference between different OSes i tried (i found differences even in different ALSA versions...), a difference that i can't explain but surely not only the things that we can explain exist, our knowledge is always limited as human beings (see, for example, the HQP v. 4.9 case). Obviously this difference isn't huge, it's surely much less than the difference - say - between Roon sound and HQPlayer sound.

About what you find better or worse between windows 10 and windows server 2019, i think that's subjective too: for example what you call "congestion" can be "fuller body" for someone else, or "sweeter highs" can be "restricted high extension" or "colored highs" for someone else... Surely, for what i hear, windows 10 sound is absolutely not "noisy", or maybe i didn't understand what you mean. My background is dark and i can't hear any difference in noise from my speakers when i have my PC on or off or playing or not. When reproducing music, spaces between sounds are absolutely silent and sounds are neatly shaped, without delays or ringings (same level as linux in this respect).

But surely, all is relative, maybe windows server is still better in those fileds; and surely the rest of your setup has a role too.

Anyway, what i wanted to report is that i found windows performances not to be worse than linux ones on my PC, so please anyone check it out in real music reproduction on your PC before being convinced of the opposite. Same for sound quality.

[Miska]

1 hour ago, Jean Paul D said:

back to my Hijack/Loopback question : why does it not stick in Preferences ? (I can choose a Loopback instance as Input but Desktop says it can't assign requested address and reverts to default.

 

I don't know. If you can email me a HQPlayer log file, maybe it explains...

 

That can't assign requested address is likely more related to IPv6 support, if you don't have IPv6 active on your network.

 

[Miska]

5 hours ago, kelvinwsy said:

IMHO you should download awindows Server 2019 and Windows LTSC and do a shootout with Win 10 Pro... It is as clear as Night and Day.. top rank and descending order to wirst

Windows Server 2019 Core Mode

Windows Server 2019 GUI

Windows Server 2016 Core

Windows LTSC

Windows 10 Pro

NB all running Hqplayer Desktop 

and For WinServer 2016 and 2019 you need AudioOptimizer for Hqplayer to work

What are the sonic differences? A sense of calm, quieter background .. less or no congestionwhen the playback volune is raised on WinServer 2019 with AO3 compare to LTSC( I upgraded my winserver 2016 to 2019 Core)

Windows 10 Pro is noisy, cluttered sound and congestion in the Sound .. most subtle ambinent or hall effects ( natural or DSP) gets buried in the noise. As a result SQ, Sound Stage Depth , Separation , enganced "body" to voices and instruments , deeper and clearer bass and sweeter cleaner highs all all evudent on a Winserver 2028/AO Hqplayer playbk PC.. 5 mintes comparison is all it takes

 

Note that HQPlayer is not supported on Windows server editions. And by default those server editions both lack needed software components and their kernel tuning is wrong for audio use cases. Because desktop editions like WIndows 10 Pro are optimized for lower latencies and music/video/gaming performance. While server editions are optimized to maximize network bandwidth meaning that their responsiveness to processes wanting to do something suffers a lot.

 

By the way, you should really try Linux too.

 

[Miska]

7 hours ago, Jud said:

Not overall across all its tasks, but specifically in oversampling to a given rate, say DSD256, isn't a CPU on MacOS going to be doing the equivalent work on that task of a CPU on Linux or Windows oversampling to DSD512?

 

No, doing oversampling to DSD256 is same amount of work on all OS.

[Miska]

6 hours ago, Luca72c said:

Then, in a dedicated music reproduction/server PC system, what's the reason for not choosing the only OS solution that combines very low (or non-existent) price, maximum software availability (including ASIO drivers that do reproduce native DSD even if the OS doesn't support it), maximum hardware compatiblity and easiest and fastest operation even for non-IT-savy users? That solution is Windows 10...

 

No, I'd say it is either Ubuntu Desktop or Fedora Workstation.

 

6 hours ago, Luca72c said:

windows' scheduler not being "clever"

 

That is true. To me, actually it is the biggest PITA on Windows. Trying to get things working correctly. While Windows wants to put all the heavy stuff on the same core.

 

Along with some other technical decisions Microsoft made, which means I need to do a lot of extra work to get around those issues.

 

6 hours ago, Luca72c said:

i have to say that THERE'S ABSOLUTELY NO PERFORMANCE DIFFERENCE, not even minimal, between windows and linux, at least in my use case, when run on the same hardware. In more than 2 years, any filters/modulators combination i tried either works ok without dropouts in linux AND in windows, or has dropouts in linux AND in windows. Absolutely no difference, not a single more dropout in windows, not even one time in 2 years.

 

And this after me spending some extra ~2 months for example last year, just to make the Windows version of HQPlayer to behave decently. One week of work on Linux. And absolutely no extra work on macOS needed.

 

Still, try compare on AMD CPU now...

 

[blueninjasix]

Hey Jussi. I've been running Ubuntu Studio on your previous recommendation, but notice that you now seem to recommend Ubuntu 20.04 instead. Do I understand that correctly? I thought Studio by default has the low latency kernel, but I find it a little harder to use compared with regular Ubuntu.

 

Also, I've recently noticed that I can't launch the Client app. I get a white square in the middle of my screen which disappears after a few seconds.

 

 

[Rune]

1 hour ago, Miska said:

Still, try compare on AMD CPU now...

This is true I tried latest desktop version on both windows and Ubuntu 20.04 with my AMD 5950X + GTX1080 TI.

On windows I cannot reliably use DSD256ASDMEC Modulator. On Ubuntu with the new AMD optimization I can now do DSD256ASDMEC -> Sinc-L when enabling cuda.

[Miska]

9 minutes ago, blueninjasix said:

Hey Jussi. I've been running Ubuntu Studio on your previous recommendation, but notice that you now seem to recommend Ubuntu 20.04 instead. Do I understand that correctly? I thought Studio by default has the low latency kernel, but I find it a little harder to use compared with regular Ubuntu.

 

Yes, I've just got enough problems with the 20.04 Ubuntu Studio that I rather now recommend Ubuntu Desktop instead. It is relatively easy to install a low-latency kernel on normal Ubuntu Desktop too. Either the standard one from Ubuntu package repositories, or my custom one.

 

11 minutes ago, blueninjasix said:

Also, I've recently noticed that I can't launch the Client app. I get a white square in the middle of my screen which disappears after a few seconds.

 

That may be related to display driver or OpenGL problem.

 

[Luca72c]

3 hours ago, Miska said:

And this after me spending some extra ~2 months for example last year, just to make the Windows version of HQPlayer to behave decently. One week of work on Linux. And absolutely no extra work on macOS needed.

And you did a great work then, thanks! Please keep going on this way, the result is certainly worth your effort...

To be honest i started comparing in HQP desktop v3 times and i found no performance difference then, too. But i have to say that my PC is only quad core, so maybe i have fewer problems about core workload distribution.

And i repeat, i absolutely understand your disregard for windows in a developer point of view, all my programmer friends did confirm your difficulties, more or less - but windows is the big IT world outside and no commercial programmer can avoid messing with it. From an user point of view windows 10 is still the best for the vast majority of users: easy, fast and compatible, a whole world of options and possiblities made easily accessible and reasonably cheap (and i'm not talking about gamers, of course). If linux should reach that level (and i can't see a reason why it shouldn't, over time), it will be welcome in all our PCs, no problem.

I tried GUI Ubuntu desktop too, the first year. A step ahead in ease of use compared to terminal only, but still very far from windows. And software and drivers availability is not as wide/comprehensive as windows' (just to say one, Acourate is not available for linux)... So, as long as i can't find any real practical performance increase using it, i see no point for going linux.

About AMD, you're right: AMD always had problems with windows, in stability and performance. I don't know why. But Zen 3 windows benchmarks are stellar even in multi-threaded workloads, so i'm sure some workaround can be found about core workload distribution. Maybe more time is needed for the cooperation between AMD cpus and windows to settle down better... Until then, surely in AMD cpus case i have to admit that there's a strong point for going linux.

Of course, again, all my considerations are personal and i just wanted to share my experience, then anyone can choose whatever he prefers.

[Account Closed]

Jussi, Thanks for the recommendation to try sinc-S a few posts ago to another user. I did not think it would run on my machine (i5 8400/Z370i/fan-less) but I tried it and it does run and is perfectly stable with ASDM7EC/256. I like this filter very much! It seems to have more dynamic range but that could be an illusion. It does have a bit more bite than most filters but I like that sound and I find that I can just turn the volume down a notch. I was probably playing most music louder than I need to in order to get that more dynamic sound. I tried a few other modulators with it but ASDM7EC is the best combo. It gives a rich and full presentation. With some of the others the bite was too much and the sound was thin.

 

A winning combo.

 

Thanks

[bipet]

I could do with a little help.

 

Recently I have been moving from windows 10 across to Linux and I have been posting over on the HQP linux thread, asI was having a few teething issues to do with multicast. Anyway, today I was back on windows 10 today on my dual boot pc and I thought I would try HQPlayer just to see if I could get it to work and I can't and I am not sure why.

 

I can see two NAA endpoints, one with Jussi's NAA on a rpi4 and another on a ropieee install on the Allo USBridge. So, HQPlayer can see those endpoint, but when I press play in roon the music does not start. It does not seem to make a difference whether its streamed via Qobuz or from a local file on my NUC with ROCK installed.

 

I must be missing something obvious, any ideas??

[Miska]

3 hours ago, rossco said:

I can see two NAA endpoints, one with Jussi's NAA on a rpi4 and another on a ropieee install on the Allo USBridge. So, HQPlayer can see those endpoint, but when I press play in roon the music does not start. It does not seem to make a difference whether its streamed via Qobuz or from a local file on my NUC with ROCK installed.

 

I must be missing something obvious, any ideas??

 

Any errors shown on HQPlayer statusbar when you hit play in Roon? HQPlayer log could possibly tell what is going wrong.

 

[FlashingBlade]

What are the system requirements for running EC filters? I'm running a 9700 with 16gb and get stuttering every 4 or 5 seconds. 

[bipet]

11 hours ago, Miska said:

Any errors shown on HQPlayer statusbar when you hit play in Roon? HQPlayer log could possibly tell what is going wrong.

Thanks @Miska . I can't see any errors in the HQ Player status bar. This morning I plugged my PC in directly to the DAC to see if it would make any difference, but no. I have had the log running since yesterday, see attached.

HQPlayer4Desktop.log

[FlashingBlade]

21 hours ago, bobflood said:

Jussi, Thanks for the recommendation to try sinc-S a few posts ago to another user. I did not think it would run on my machine (i5 8400/Z370i/fan-less) but I tried it and it does run and is perfectly stable with ASDM7EC/256. I like this filter very much! It seems to have more dynamic range but that could be an illusion. It does have a bit more bite than most filters but I like that sound and I find that I can just turn the volume down a notch. I was probably playing most music louder than I need to in order to get that more dynamic sound. I tried a few other modulators with it but ASDM7EC is the best combo. It gives a rich and full presentation. With some of the others the bite was too much and the sound was thin.

 

A winning combo.

 

Thanks

Could you share your settings please? I'm running an i7 9700 and cant get 5EC or 7EC to run without stuttering. Closest I came was Sync M which would run for about 15 seconds between stutters. 

 

I could go for a i9 9900 but thats the limit due to the 65w limit on my passive case and I'm not convinced that would work either given you can get it to work on an i5 but I cant on an i7. 

[Account Closed]

2 hours ago, FlashingBlade said:

Could you share your settings please? I'm running an i7 9700 and cant get 5EC or 7EC to run without stuttering. Closest I came was Sync M which would run for about 15 seconds between stutters. 

 

I could go for a i9 9900 but thats the limit due to the 65w limit on my passive case and I'm not convinced that would work either given you can get it to work on an i5 but I cant on an i7. 

I spoke too soon. I had to switch back to poly-sinc lp 2s. I started to get drops although they were infrequent, they were annoying enough that I switched back. Too bad as I liked sinc-S.

 

I would check your BIOS and make sure that you have the settings for your system that will give the best performance. If you are using Windows make sure your power plan is set to high performance.

 

There has been much discussion on this subject on this thread so try searching it. You should be able to get ASDM7EC/256 with any 2s filter (and that includes poly-sinc ext2 which is 2s when in SDM) with that chip.

[Miska]

5 hours ago, rossco said:

Thanks @Miska . I can't see any errors in the HQ Player status bar. This morning I plugged my PC in directly to the DAC to see if it would make any difference, but no. I have had the log running since yesterday, see attached.

HQPlayer4Desktop.log 100.03 kB · 5 downloads

 

I don't see a single connection from Roon or any playback attempts. Just some setting changes and restarts.

 

Are you sure you have network control allowed from HQPlayer, Roon with correct HQPlayer address, and no firewall blocking inbound connections to HQPlayer?

 

[Miska]

21 minutes ago, bobflood said:

I spoke too soon. I had to switch back to poly-sinc lp 2s. I started to get drops although they were infrequent, they were annoying enough that I switched back. Too bad as I liked sinc-S.

 

If it works for a while and then you start getting dropouts, it could be CPU running into thermal throttling. Would be good idea to check core temperatures, especially if you have passive cooling.

 

[Miska]

5 hours ago, FlashingBlade said:

What are the system requirements for running EC filters? I'm running a 9700 with 16gb and get stuttering every 4 or 5 seconds. 

 

Depends on your OS and HQPlayer build. For me, minimum needed is i5-7600T (Ubuntu Server 20.04 and the "AMD" build).