LUMIN - Audiophile Network Music Player

[psme]

Believe it or not, many users ask for Airplay feature! We audiophile uses the UPnP AV protocol for hi-resolution, DSD etc. Wife and children can use Airplay for background music and partying! It's a win-win setup!

 

Besides, as Airplay in 44.1kHz/16bit is actually bit perfect, it does sound quite good IMO on LUMIN (I can't say the same with Airplay on other devices!). In the LUMIN, from the technical point of view, the processing path is almost the same. The major difference is pre-buffering won't work.

 

If one really hate Airplay, don't worry, you can disable the feature in LUMIN app!

[ThierryNK]

Bit perfect is about decoding on the computer. Not after transmitting the PCM flux over Ethernet.

 

If you transfer PCM over Ethernet, then it is an audio flux that arrives to the DAC and not to the decoder. Am I wrong or can you send tracks files with AirPlay?

This flux is made on the computer not on the Lumin.

Same as a Mac or a PC connected to a DAC.

 

For wife and children, I cannot see the differences between launching music from iTunes or from an iPad or an iPhone.

 

All the best.

[The Computer Audiophile]

Hi Theirry - There's a huge difference between using AirPlay and iTunes for convenience. I live AirPlay for having fun with friends when we all have music on our iPhones. I think it was smart to add AP to the Lumin.

[ThierryNK]

Hi The Computer Audiophile :-)

 

Is AirPlay a file transfer or PCM transfer?

 

Best and kind regards.

[psme]

Airplay is not a file transfer. Airplay is a continues audio (data) streaming in ALAC codec, with around 4 seconds of buffering. After ALAC data is extracted from network packet, the processing path is the same as playing a regular ALAC audio file in UPnP mode. There is a continues "sync" signal in the streaming. The playback device is suppose to adjust playback speed to keep the "sync". Since LUMIN uses a fixed clock during playback, Airplay "sync" signal is ignored. In test we don't see (hear) any out-of-sync issue. Maybe if running Airplay for many many hours there maybe "sync" issue...

[zeb27]

Hi PSME,

 

First of all, I want here to congratulate Lumin music for its outstanding qualities of fabrication and audio it gives to us ! Really fantastic !

 

In the Lumin app there's an option regarding the analog output: normal or low mode. What is it for ? Could you explain to us the reasons of such an option ? It may be an option regarding the type of pre-amplifier but switching this option to normal or low, doesn't give the same feeling about the audio results.. Thanks.

Regards,

 

Philippe

[psme]

Some users requested LUMIN analog output level to be lower, in order to better match their high-gain pre-amp. Through a combination of setting DAC chips parameters, we found a way to slightly lower analog volume level at around -4db. User with sensitive pre-amp can try the "Low" volume setting to see if that better match their system.

[zeb27]

Some users requested LUMIN analog output level to be lower, in order to better match their high-gain pre-amp. Through a combination of setting DAC chips parameters, we found a way to slightly lower analog volume level at around -4db. User with sensitive pre-amp can try the "Low" volume setting to see if that better match their system.

Tanks Psme.

When lowering analog volume with the low mode, do we have to expect a lower sound quality or not ?

[ted_b]

I am happy to announce that not only is the LUMIN is back in my system (as many know I had been focused on the stacked Mytek project, but need to demo the LUMIN further, for my review and own edification) BUT...thanks to ThierryNK's help I am now using my very familiar JRiver and Jremote iPad app to browse and play the LUMIN (both DSD and PCM). Yeah! Nothing against the other clients or UPnP servers, but this is VERY comfortable, not to mention all my tagging has been done for awhile.

 

[ted_b]

Here's another view, showing the use of JRiver/jremote's nice custom views (in my case, DSD and 24bit HiRez). So anything you can do in JRiver and jremote you can do with it using the LUMIN as player.

 

[ThierryNK]

+++ Thumbs Up!

 

To share information:

 

- there somme gapless issues with Jriver/Lumin (and also Jriver/S5). Gapless OK with all other UPNP servers. I have opened a thread on Jriver forum.

If you get the same troubles, it would be nice if you also post on the thread I have opened on Jriver Forum.

 

- Lumin app may work with small libraries, but not with real libraries. I speak for 7 French Lumin buyers, they all stopped using Lumin app. We have libraries with several thousands of albums. The cache process that seems to happen at first app start never ends. With small libraries, when you change UPNP server, the app freezes also and you need to kill it.

 

Best and kind regards

[psme]

LUMIN app works fine for me with around 3300 albums! Well, my opinion is obviously bias!

 

 

LUMIN app still has a long way to improve. In time I hope more user will like it better!

 

And that's the beauty of using open standard UPnP AV protocol. You can mix and match different software on different platforms.

 

zeb17:

 

Whether to use analog volume Normal or Low, depends on your pre-amp gain level, and your system overall setup. In theory there is no audio quality difference in the 2 modes. Try it and hear which one you like!

[ThierryNK]

Did your library contained 3300 albums when you first opened the app? It may work better if you progressively add albums to a small library.

[john925]

Did your library contained 3300 albums when you first opened the app? It may work better if you progressively add albums to a small library.

 

 

I got almost 3600 albums in JRiver(almost 1000 SACD ripped albums. I'm a SACD fan and have a lot of SACD gears, Esoteric UX3pi, D-05, Sony SCD-XE600, Pioneer AX10ai), which Lumin takes quite a long time to load the whole library. I even don't know if it is crashed or not.

 

While Lumin streamer just launched, I've tried the minim server, which was said the best server to support a Lumin streamer, and found it difficult to keep up with what I can get from JRiver Server. So, I was no longer considering to get a Lumin streamer. Now, if the Lumin streamer can be used on JRiver server(even streaming DSD), it would be a exciting news. I would like to get a try on any DSD capable devices.

[cubase]

Hi everybody,

I am a new forum member but I often read this thread. I also owns a Lumin which is very good but I am trying to cope with a few issues for several weeks :

 

- A gapless problem between Lumin and Jriver. It only comes up with these 2 devices and whatever file format I use (FLAC, SACD iso)

- Jriver DLNA server can't serve SACD iso to Lumin, Jriver is just skipping from one track to the next one without playing it. Works fine with Foobar server.

- The Lumin is sometimes disappearing from the "playing now" panel on the upper left side. It also may take some times to appear.

- I can't comment on Lumin Ipad app as I am not an Apple user.

 

ted_b are you experiencing the same issues ? Anyone else ?

[MikeJazz]

I am happy to announce that not only is the LUMIN is back in my system (as many know I had been focused on the stacked Mytek project, but need to demo the LUMIN further, for my review and own edification) BUT...thanks to ThierryNK's help I am now using my very familiar JRiver and Jremote iPad app to browse and play the LUMIN (both DSD and PCM). Yeah! Nothing against the other clients or UPnP servers, but this is VERY comfortable, not to mention all my tagging has been done for awhile.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4689[/ATTACH]

 

Hi ted_b...

in that configuration you gain your beloved interface but you loose..

 

- the possibility of eliminating one box (the pc) from the hi-fi stack and stream from the network instead;

- the possibility of doing real gapless (in my experience, I only achieved true gapless using linn ds "playlist" mode, that uses the uPNP AV extensions from linn; using Jriver never got true gapless and I see other users reporting the same problem);

 

I face the same dilemma, as you, my favorite control is Jremote...altough the favorite server "organization" is from minimserver (as I suspect other classical music lovers that have experienced minimserver will agree)...

[ThierryNK]

Minimserver seems nice at the first look. After some time you realize that it painfully tries to reproduce a database search through the unending addition of new branches in a tree navigation.

Minimserver smart navigation is a navigation where the user is smart.

 

Even back in the 70s, no one developed like this.

 

And yes I should be a "target" for Minimserver, I mostly listen to baroque and classical music. Composer, orchestras, singers are useful for me but not with 30 tree branches to go through to find what I want.

Entering "Mozart Flemings" in a search field is definitively the best way to find Mozart arias and operas sung by Renee Flemings. And it still works when I add a Lieder genre.

 

I am far for saying that Jriver has no default. Gapless should be improved.

 

But we can also talk about the necessity to relaunch Minimserver each time you add a simple track. With a parsing of the entire library.

 

Minimserver has one advantage. It is free.

 

PS: with a network player as the lumin and Jriver as a UPNP server you do stream from the network. As a NAS, the PC where Jriver is installed has only to be on the network. Not on the HIFI stack.

[Audio_ELF]

To give it it's dues; Minimserve is also quite new in developement and is getting better all the time...

 

There's no reason if you chose to use J.River as the UPnP server and controller, you couldn't put the HDD into the PC and use it as the NAS. (I've wondered about using a touchscreen Windows PC for this)

[MikeJazz]

PS: with a network player as the lumin and Jriver as a UPNP server you do stream from the network. As a NAS, the PC where Jriver is installed has only to be on the network. Not on the HIFI stack.

 

True, but of lumin works similar to linn ds, then of you use JRiver UPNP to stream from, the flow is:

- JRiver (UPNP Server) > sends data to > Lumin streamer (fills buffer and plays).

 

Instead, a better scenario would be:

- Lumin Streamer (playlist mode, UPNP AV) > send request to server to fill buffer > receives from server > plays from buffer

 

What I mean is that with JRiver as a UPNP I cannot replicate the Playlist mode in Linn DS; and I assume that lumin functions in a very similar way to Linn (sorry if not completly accurate).

 

The importance of the playlist mode is that the communication is much more efficient that with the Jriver as UPNP server, because the JRiver computer does not have to keep sending play commands on the network...

[ThierryNK]

Hi Mikejazz

 

In UPNP, it is always the player which requests the tracks from the server.

What you call "better scenario" is the standard scenario. I do not know a UPNP server/renderer that works with your first scenario. The Lumin? (I do not have one right now to check). You have an example?

 

The control point asks the renderer to ask tracks to the server.

 

Of course, after your post, I have checked that Jriver UPNP server respects this, with UPNP inspector tools. Ad it is OK. From Jremote on iPad, or directly with Jriver as control. (With my Ayon S5 Nerwork Player).

 

You are absolutely right about Jriver weakness on gapless. I am investigating that.

 

Best and kind regards

[ted_b]

JRIver asks "can LUMIN support SetNextAVTransportURI"? That is what is needed for JRiver to do gapless.

 

Note: don't shoot the messenger..I have no idea what the command above even means.

[Miska]

JRIver asks "can LUMIN support SetNextAVTransportURI"? That is what is needed for JRiver to do gapless.

 

Note: don't shoot the messenger..I have no idea what the command above even means.

 

That's the thing so many UPnP devices miss, it instructs the playback device to begin pre-buffering for upcoming next URI before the previous one ends. So when the current song is over it already has issued HTTP request for the next song and fetched bunch of data ready for playback of the next track...

 

(just think UPnP playback as series of HTTP GET -requests for each track)

[ThierryNK]

I checked on my Ayon S5 that next track was requested 3 seconds before the end of the current track.

Gapless

 

But the way this thread has started and evolved on Jriver support forum is not very fair. "Everything is perfect on my side, check your player" even after the copy/paste of my Synology UPNP server log. As far as I know, a support forum is not a reverse forum where paying ccustomers debug the software or Windows.

 

Kind regards.

[ted_b]

Miska, thanks. I began googling it after I got the message from JRiver, and was coming to some kind of understanding, but your summary is all I needed to get it. Thanks.

[ThierryNK]

About Lumin app, after some analysis, I came to the following "conclusions", am I right or wrong?

 

 

1/

All the http tracks addresses and albums images are stored by the app.

 

 

2/

No UPNP requests are addressed by the Lumin, but only http requests. The UPNP server is fully bypassed.

 

 

 

 

Pros

Faster navigation than network communications for navigation on the iPad.

 

 

Cons

Long time to first load the llibrary. Memory limitation on the iPad. An infinite cache does not exist.

 

 

No simple and fast server change, mismatched cache between several servers.

 

 

One tag change on the server side requires a full parse of the entire library by the app, this is not automatic and requires user action "update Library"

 

 

As UPNP server is bypassed (no UPNP calls, only http calls), server transcoding (or other UPNP server setup) cannot be used and is also bypassed. As wave transcoding provides better (little) output, than Flac (decoding software jitter), you cannot use the Lumin app to get server transcoding.

 

 

 

 

Of course all this was tested. With Kinsky and Luminn app as Control Points, and Synology, Foobar and Jriver as UPNP servers.

 

 

With Kinsky, the Lumin is naturally able to deliver UPNP requests, and, for example, transcoding works on the server side.

 

 

I can inderstand that "fast" was a design requirement for navigation, but, maybe, all the consequences of the technical design choices to achieve "fast" were not enough evaluated.

 

 

"Fast" can be achieved by a smarter cache design. No one looks at the entire library simultaneously. Cache updates can be made "real time" when entering a folder or a navigation branch.

 

 

To bypass the UPNP server seems to me a very "strange" design choice for a UPNP network player control app

 

 

Best and kind regards.