LUMIN - Audiophile Network Music Player

[The Computer Audiophile]

Hi Wap - This is where a good dealer or friend with knowledge comes into play. Networks are very stable when setup right.

 

We trust all out banking transactions to a network as well.

[ThierryNK]

I have been using the products in my signature for months without any problem, avoiding searching for an album during hours in my 1000 CD. This system is better than any CD player. I have been using a Mac/Audivarna/Pure Music with different USB/Spdif interfaces and a high end DAC. As we say in French, "no photo", that means that these are 2 different worlds of quality.

 

I sincerely hope the Lumin will reach this kind of quality, because CD is a dead end to any improvement, and I support any brand that tries to do something else. Players with hard drives inside will always have jitter problems, maybe less with a better interface than SPDIF and AES/EBU.

 

To decode the track "as close as possible" to the DAC, and avoiding any audio flux transport, is, IMHO, the best way to avoid jitter and to take benefit of 30 years of CD players design.

 

"You do not build a bulb by improving the candle", Mister Edison could have said. Old minded people still used candles when bulbs appear, it will be always the same around the world for any habits change.

 

To avoid small troubles to others and give explanations, is just a friendly attitude. Sometimes, I miss what I want to say, because of my english.

 

I participate to this forum thread because I was the one who made the network setup and prepare DSD tracks for a Lumin review by a friend.

A Synology NAS, a 100 Mbps switch, 3 ethernet cables, tracks copied to the NAS. And all was set.

 

Best and kind regards.

Thierry

[wappinghigh]

psme and ted and Thierry are right though. A NAS with the media server embedded is essential. Keep the PC out of the loop. That's always been the Linn recommendation. Something like twonky running in a QNAP.... I've seen that set up work beautifully and seamlessly for months... It's just isn't for me. Because I like my library on a mac (for other reasons).... And my network is always evolving. Chris sure is right. You will need expert help with large evolving networks. For example. Want to expand? Think just popping down to the local best buy and connecting in a managed switch will solve your problems? Seen it operate beautifully at the office? Think again. Remember there are probably PhD's in some back room somewhere who have been tweaking things for hrs... Cheers.

[vortecjr]

psme and ted and Thierry are right though. A NAS with the media server embedded is essential. Keep the PC out of the loop. That's always been the Linn recommendation. Something like twonky running in a QNAP.... I've seen that set up work beautifully and seamlessly for months... It's just isn't for me. Because I like my library on a mac (for other reasons).... And my network is always evolving. Chris sure is right. You will need expert help with large evolving networks. For example. Want to expand? Think just popping down to the local best buy and connecting in a managed switch will solve your problems? Seen it operate beautifully at the office? Think again. Remember there are probably PhD's in some back room somewhere who have been tweaking things for hrs... Cheers.

 

The keyword in all that was PC:)

 

Jesus R

[wappinghigh]

Well yes Jesus. You are spot on. It's also why we need large capacity SSD storage in your players

 

Look Sorry for being a PITA. But it does come down to the situation of the environment the hiend streamer will operate. And the expectations of the listener.

 

Linn back's up their product with many dealers who have had extensive training in networks etc. These are not products that should be sold out of the back of a truck, on ebay, Amazon, or even in some random hifi high street store IMHO. They need genuine support. Live and learn folks.

 

Also as some poster noted a few weeks back, and I've said before, most listeners will expect a different experience listening to a streamer in their hi rez/high end primary listening environment than out at the BBQ, or in the garage, or cooking in the kitchen..

 

From my personal experience the odd (even the frequent) network glitch, pop, or skip is not a problem in secondary listening areas because folks have a different expectation out there.. equivalent to just listening to the old "radio".. you are doing something else. Having a chat, making a salad, whatever. What you want here is a snap easy interface to get the stuff playing. That is why Sonos has been so successful. The big Q/ for me is, has someone replicated that experience in the primary listening area? Linn is certainly close. Is there a pure plug and play hirez streamer for *this* environment? I argue. Not quite (Yet). I just wish Linn et al would release a player with an internal hi capacity SSD. To take away a large component of most network problems. To stop this total obsession with having to stream everything. And always.

 

When you sit down to actually listen to music on your hiend gear...you have a slightly different expectation of the player. You expect 100% "always works" playback. Everytime. Or at least I do. Cheers.

[ThierryNK]

@Wappinghigh

If one day you want to use a network player, you do not need to move your library out of your Mac or install a UPNP Multimedia server on your Mac... You just make your music library a shared folder on the network and have it indexed by the Multimedia Server on the NAS. You will not listen to any difference, as it is tracks and not audio flux that is transmitted to the player.

 

Cheers

[wappinghigh]

@Wappinghigh

If one day you want to use a network player, you do not need to move your library out of your Mac or install a UPNP Multimedia server on your Mac... You just make your music library a shared folder on the network and have it indexed by the Multimedia Server on the NAS. You will not listen to any difference, as it is tracks and not audio flux that is transmitted to the player.

 

Cheers

 

Well yes. You are correct. That is definitely a solution. No doubt about it.

 

It's just I would like to do something exactly like that but swapping the NAS share for an SSD share *within* a hirez DSD player.

 

As I said, that would take out 99% of most network "streaming" issues. It would also stop their dependence on third party software like Twonky etc. With the cost of SSD storage plummeting by the day, I seriously fail to understand why some DAC makers or hiend streamer manufactures don't just include this "option" of SSD in their players/streamers.

 

As a starter, it would increase their potential market. Surely. It would certainly make their players more versatile.

 

Cheers

[Audio_ELF]

The keyword in all that was PC:)

 

Jesus R

I presume Jesus is saying that using a computer based setup like vortexbox (or a Windows system with Asset for that matter) actually works better than a QNAP or Synology NAS with their UPnP server...

 

The basic CAPS would be an ideal platform especially if built into a different case supporting one or more 3.5" HDD.

 

Eloise

[wappinghigh]

^ Yep.

 

Correct. This gets down to the nitty gritty of just how customers might use a "hiend" 24/192 DSD streamer. And where they go from there (once they purchase it).

 

Lets put up a scenario.

 

Lets say a newbie loves the idea of the Lumin. And why wouldn't you? It looks like a very fine player.

 

But he/she doesn't have a computer network. Or a NAS.

Or once they set it up themselves, they run into network problems.

Or they want to expand and get another Lumin for the second room..

They don't need to return the player in 30 days if there are issues..

 

Because All this suddenly becomes way easier (and they hang onto the player) if the hiend streamer can also play files from an inbuilt SSD or even esata. And now a 256Gb SDXC card..

 

So I simply fail to understand why these sort of streamers don't include this option.

 

I don't understand this total obsession with NAS's as the share.. because it immediately makes you prone to network and third party problems

[wappinghigh]

Keep it in house. Make an SSD on your streamer an option as the primary "share".

 

Then use *that* to share to the next Lumin or whatever..

[ThierryNK]

My network player can play USB Keys and hard drives.

 

But if you want to reach the best audio quality "by design" you need to keep the tracks outside the player (with current state if the art technologies).

 

If you want them inside, then you need a database, and you end up with a processor and an operating system (as Aurender without a DAC or Soolos with a DAC).

All this electronics near the decoding and the transport to the included DAC is not "audio-friendly".

 

If you target medium level system, your options seem good. If you target the best audio systems, with current technologies, it seems necessary to keep the biggest possible part of the computer functions outside the player.

 

@Audio-Elf

On which aspects do Vortexbox or Windows with Asset work better than other NAS?

 

Best and kind regards

Thierry

[wappinghigh]

@ Thierry. Sure.

 

Like an SSD or SDXC card couldn't replace the function of a CD/SACD? Or be made to be a source in a similar way?

 

Nobody complained they were not "audio friendly", or stopped them selling for thousands of dollars each.

 

[ted_b]

English is not my native language. I am French. Sorry if my post appeared to be condescending. It was not my intention at all.

 

 

Thierry, and I apologize as well...I should have known that something was amiss in the translation. I'm sorry for coming down on you. I see you were only trying to help.

 

I will judge the Lumin mostly on sound quality and on overall value (i.e rather than CAPS server, expensive USB cable, two 3rd party hi-end power cords, a CAPS linear power supply, a DAC of course, etc) but must also score the software, setup and convenience factors that are always a part of computer audio, good and bad. It's those softer areas that are struggling right now, probably mostly due to user error and NAS incompatibility....but these things are learning curves (and character builders ).

 

My biggest disappointment so far is the lack of compatibility with my seemingly recent Synology DS410. It surprises me that an 18 month old 4 bay powerful NAS by Synology doesn't have the horsepower (or at least cpu type) to run the UPnP apps like minimserver locally. It has forced me to run minimserver on my general use home office desktop Dell Vostrol (keeping other servers and processes away from my minimalist CAPS setup), thereby mucking up a value prop I was hoping to investigate (i.e no pc server needed, just NAS and Lumin).

[ThierryNK]

@Wappinghigh

Currently, what does not seem to be audio-friendly (from a shielding, EMI and jitter point of view) is what is needed to use a SSD. Lower voltage of SSD is a very good thing. But it is still necessary to have some processor and mother board to handle a SSD.

If a company should decide to make some dedicated chips to handle the SSD and run the software to access the tracks, then your scheme could reach very high quality by design.

 

Sorry to repeat, but what I say is for getting the highest audiophile quality. Your scheme is very good for a lot of market segments. Soolos from Meridian at 2400$ is a good product for example and it still uses a hard drive, not a SSD.

 

But if you look at the big picture, UPNP and Multimedia servers solve some design tricky issue:

- where are the tracks

- where is the decoding

- is there a "long" audio flux transport to the DAC

 

NAS and Multimedia server allow both to keep the track storage outside and to just bring them without any jitter issue, just as when you put a CD in a CD player, no SPDIF, no USB.

So it is quite understandable then designers use this opportunity. And the number of network players is increasing very fast, Denon, Cambridge, Yamaha, Pionneer, Revox, Atoll, Ayon, Audio Research, Lumin, Pro-ject, and many others, from 750$ to 18000$.

 

@ted_b no problem :-)

I saw that there was some misunderstandings somewhere.

I fully agree with the way you evaluate a product.

Apart from audio quality, I already have noticed some missing characteristics that could improve the Lumin. I will of course tell them when it is time and all together with the audio aspects.

 

A last comment about DSD. I am a fan of DSD. I have a PS3 if you see what I mean (in fact I have 2 PS3, one as a backup).

But if studios do not use a DSD primary equipment, then I think that DSD is useless. DSD cannot make the miracle of correcting what the first PCM take (even in PCM DxD) has missed. I just hope that more studios will use DSD recording equipments. And I am not very optimistic about this.

 

Best and kind regards.

Thierry

[vortecjr]

What your asking for is basically a music server running Vortexbox;) FYI I have not used an SSD in one of my designs for a long time. I just decided I was going to build what I thought worked best and not worry about what was popular...

 

Jesus R

[vortecjr]

I presume Jesus is saying that using a computer based setup like vortexbox (or a Windows system with Asset for that matter) actually works better than a QNAP or Synology NAS with their UPnP server...

 

The basic CAPS would be an ideal platform especially if built into a different case supporting one or more 3.5" HDD.

 

Eloise

 

Eloise, I try not to use Windows for anything these days, but Chris's design seems pretty solid.

 

I took a quick look at the MinimServer setup for the Synology NAS and it was over my head. I tried to warn Ted a few posts back for no reason other than it's not a good idea to mess with your main system. I have destroyed my own personal server a few times trying to run some new hot rod app:( The advantage of Vortexbox is that it has an OS that is flexible and up to date and it can handle these streaming solutions. I wrote the 'How to Install MinimServer on Vortexbox' in the Vortexbox wiki and it's only 6 simple commands. If enough people wanted it I'm sure Andrew would add it to the upgrade center...

 

Jesus R

[ted_b]

Agreed Jesus. Nobody's touching my CAPS V2+, even with their UPnP app.

[vortecjr]

^ Yep.

 

Correct. This gets down to the nitty gritty of just how customers might use a "hiend" 24/192 DSD streamer. And where they go from there (once they purchase it).

 

Lets put up a scenario.

 

Lets say a newbie loves the idea of the Lumin. And why wouldn't you? It looks like a very fine player.

 

But he/she doesn't have a computer network. Or a NAS.

Or once they set it up themselves, they run into network problems.

Or they want to expand and get another Lumin for the second room..

They don't need to return the player in 30 days if there are issues..

 

Because All this suddenly becomes way easier (and they hang onto the player) if the hiend streamer can also play files from an inbuilt SSD or even esata. And now a 256Gb SDXC card..

 

So I simply fail to understand why these sort of streamers don't include this option.

 

I don't understand this total obsession with NAS's as the share.. because it immediately makes you prone to network and third party problems

 

All bets are off if you don't have a network, but this really is not that complicated. You can have your content on your Mac and you run MinimServer on it. Then you wire your network player to the router and your done. I'm doing it her with a special collection I have and it works all day long...

 

Jesus R

[Audio_ELF]

@Audio-Elf

On which aspects do Vortexbox or Windows with Asset work better than other NAS?

Well I think if you go beyond a basic setup then it's going to be a lot easier to do that with a "full" operating system than with a NAS. Yes I know a lot of NAS run Linux or Windows but this isn't easily accessible to the end user for configuration.

 

The high powered (even if just an Atom) processor is also an advantage (IMO).

 

Finally a Vortexbox is price competitive with a good NAS.

 

Eloise

[wappinghigh]

^ Jesus

 

MinimServer

 

Thanks

[dariusb]

Hello,

 

It was a nice month with the Lumin, but I have it already packed.

Build quality, easy of use, Lumin's application for the Ipad is very good, during all time I have no single problem with the unit, it pays everything I dropped in to the server( I have not tested only DXD files).

In my system it outperforms my Logitech Transporter but the margin is not so big(especially in HiRez), so I decided to not keep it.

 

Who knows, maybe in few years I will have Lumin in my equipment rack, but with firmware release 2.0.5 , with internet radio, *.cue and folder support, app will work under iOs and Android and it will outperform my Logitech Transpoter with the huuuuge margin .

 

Thanks for everybody,

Darius

[michael123]

Who knows, maybe in few years I will have Lumin in my equipment rack, but with firmware release 2.0.5 , with internet radio, *.cue and folder support, app will work under iOs and Android and it will outperform my Logitech Transpoter with the huuuuge margin .

 

Outperforming Transporter by a huge margin is difficult

 

Curious, what are' you going to try next?

[dariusb]

Michael,

 

I'm willing to try PS audio PWD MKII with the bridge, I read over internet that SQ is really good but eLyric app is really sh.... and it streamer has no support of the gapplles playback.

 

Regarding transporter: now it cost less than 1k$, Lumin cost 4k$. OK, the price of the equipment in real life it is not directly related to the SQ and I'm not willing(al least now) to spend additional 3k$ just to have such increase(for my ears and in my system) in SQ . Support of the DSD/DXD and 192 it is not big candy for me.

 

Do you have any recommendations for the next candidate for testing?

 

Darius

[michael123]

Michael,

 

I'm willing to try PS audio PWD MKII with the bridge, I read over internet that SQ is really good but eLyric app is really sh.... and it streamer has no support of the gapplles playback.

 

Regarding transporter: now it cost less than 1k$, Lumin cost 4k$. OK, the price of the equipment in real life it is not directly related to the SQ and I'm not willing(al least now) to spend additional 3k$ just to have such increase(for my ears and in my system) in SQ . Support of the DSD/DXD and 192 it is not big candy for me.

 

Do you have any recommendations for the next candidate for testing?

 

Darius

 

I had PS Audio PWD without a bridge for a week once.. and to my ears Transporter was far superior in high-rez, but worse in redbook.

 

Also, I am running now Transporter in a digital loop correcting few room modes with DEQ2496, so I need a streamer (if that's going to be a streamer) with a DSP option to correct these few frequencies in bass area. At the moment, there are merely couple of these (like the new Trinnov and there is some other forgot its name..).. and 192/24 is an issue for me since the downsampling of Squeeze using Sox is not very smooth (there are delays sometimes, it stucks periodically).. and there are some FLAC files that Transporter/Squeeze cannot handle.. (stuck, and I need to re-encode them)

 

At the moment, I tend to go with the PC/DAC combination.. Maybe I will install also Vortexbox there so wife will have the GUI she used to. This will give me the flexibility, I could run the EQ there, install the software I want and not to stick to that shi** software coming with the streamers (sans Squeeze) As for the DAC I actually look at the Playback Designs MPD-5. I personally liked the sound (not in my system, but I compared it to EMM, which was, in turn, compared to Transporter), and I like the technical support and continuity of the product (i.e. MPD-5) - there are constant updates, support of new formats (being based on FPGA).. yet, it is 13K$

 

Transporter 2 would be a better choice

[ThierryNK]

When you have an optimized and well tuned system:

- room

- speakers

- amplifier

- interconnects cables

- speaker cables

 

and when you have a "transparent" system (no blocking points accross the above elements), then (IMHO and listenings):

 

- the differences with a Squezebox, a Mac-M2tech or Mac-Audiophileo, an Aurender, or a Linn Akurate, are huge (I mean in favor of the Lumin).

 

- The Lumin is also slightly better than the Ayon S3, but below the Ayon S5 (harmonics, definition and accuracy).

 

- The Lumin seems sensitive to the decoding phase: uncompressed DSD sounds better than DST compressed DSD, AIF and WAVE are better than FLAC (on the same tracks of course).

 

Of course, this does not come from the file format as you can read on some articles or forums, it comes from jitter that is added when un-compression operations are needed before the real decoding. This is called "Software jitter".

 

This could be improved by a firmware update. Meanwhile, FLAC transcoding can be activated on the Multimedia Server, and for DSD it is recommended to use uncompressed DSD format.

 

For "non computer specialists", I would not recommend Minimserver which is still too "young", have some bugs, and still needs improvements, automatic updates of the indexed files for example, and a user interface not in "key words" approach.

 

I understand that Lumin recommend Minimserver as it is the only Multimedia Server that indexes DSD tracks.

 

But with DoP format, any Multimedia Server will index the DSD tracks. But making DoP files with Foobar requires minimum (really not very high) skills (I am thinking of audiophiles very "far" from Computer Audio).

 

In my opinion, the best thing would be to ask Synology to support DSD tracks.

 

 

I do not know if mixing the configuration functions and the control functions within the same application is a good thing.

 

People who do not have an IOS device, can rely on a computer base (Kinsky) or Android Control Point. But for configuration, an IOS device is mandatory.

 

Some design characteristics of Lumin Control Points seem to be improvable. I am not sure, for example, if new tracks on the NAS are seen by the application without a full reboot of the application (Kinsky or Song Book Lite can see new tracks immediately).

 

 

Having no particular interest in Lumin, and already owning an Ayon S5, I hope this post will be considered as "neutral" as possible.

At the current price, I recommend this Lumin to my friends around me and some of them have already passed an order.

 

Kind and best regards

Thierry