LUMIN - Audiophile Network Music Player

[AZ Craig]

Does anybody know if the Lumin music player supports Double DSD? Quad DSD?

[la1209]

DoP file creation is not in the official version.

 

Get the DoP file creation version (modded from version 0.61) here:

https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B4jZ4NDGECzEbnNQOXVQRHJpQlU

 

Source code included.

 

This modded version should have all the functions in the original version, but I haven't try all options! To be save, you can install another copy of foobar2000 in a separate folder with this DoP plugin. And only use that for DoP file creation.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3409[/ATTACH]

In SACD plugin config, make sure "DSD over PCM" (default) is selected. Then do a "convert" to lossless PCM file (WAV/AIFF/FLAC/ALAC etc). It will always create a 176.4/24 PCM file with DSD embedded in DoP style.

 

Play this DoP file through a UPnP server to LUMIN, and LUMIN will extract the original DSD for native DSD playback.

 

In theory, I think this DoP file should also work on those USB/FW/SPDIF DAC with DoP support. And the user can play this DoP file using a softplayer without native DoP via USB support...

 

Hi psme,

 

I'm new in using Lumin Music Player, as I had a lot of SACD-ISO files, and I follow the steps you quoted to install the DoP plug-in in foobar2000 but fail. Even I can't install the modded 0.61 SACD plug-in.

How can I do that?

Thanks!

 

Kenneth

[psme]

There is nothing special about installing the modded DoP plugin. Simply install it like any normal foobar2000 plugin. And make sure you don't have the original SACD plugin already installed. If you still have problem, try to install the original SACD plugin to make sure your foobar2000 setup is ok, then uninstall the original SACD plugin, and install the modded plugin instead.

[la1209]

There is nothing special about installing the modded DoP plugin. Simply install it like any normal foobar2000 plugin. And make sure you don't have the original SACD plugin already installed. If you still have problem, try to install the original SACD plugin to make sure your foobar2000 setup is ok, then uninstall the original SACD plugin, and install the modded plugin instead.

 

Yes, I had installed the original SACD plugin, is OK. But after I removed the plugin and tried to install the modded one, it fail.

[psme]

Is there any error message? Can you post a screen capture?

[ThierryNK]

There is no "install" and uninstall procedures for those plugins.

 

Uninstalling SACD plugin is done by removing the .dll file (that you had manually added before) from the components Foobar directory.

 

To 'install" the SACD plugin that has been upgraded for DoP by Lumin, just copy the .dll file in the components directory of Foobar.

[la1209]

Thanks ThierryNK,

 

I installed the original SACD Plug-in first, and then I copy the modded .dll file to the foobar components dir, now I can use DoP.

 

Thanks all.

[la1209]

I finally change the SACD-ISO to the AIFF in DoP format, and play in native DSD on Lumin, but I found some noise in the right channel, left channel is normal. Anybody have this problem?

[ThierryNK]

I finally change the SACD-ISO to the AIFF in DoP format, and play in native DSD on Lumin, but I found some noise in the right channel, left channel is normal. Anybody have this problem?

 

1/ there are some problems on AIFF with tags and included images in files. With other Lumin owners, we noticed the same issue.

2/ AIFF are useless and spoil space as the PCM file format is just a container for DSD included in the DoP.

 

Do the same in Flac format. 50% smaller files, same DSD included in the file and not AIFF tags and images headaches (lot of decoders have problems with this).

 

Best regards.

[la1209]

Thanks again, I will try to do it with flac tonight.

[dariusb]

Hi psme,

 

Do you have any plans in the future to do better(IMHO) integration of the minim server to your Lumin app?

It could be very useful/convenient to have in the Lumin app under "minimserver" field dedicated button to restart minim server and also to have an option to enable/disable transcoding.

 

Thanks in advance,

Darius

[pesantini]

Hi,

two weeks ago I received my LUMIN. It sounds great, but I am still a beginner. The LUMIN App has a lot of setting possibilities in LUMIN Options. Neither in this forum nor somewhere else on the net I can find an explication of all settings.

Some settings are clear for me, some are not.

The following settings are possible (I mark those, which I completely understand with «ok». Those, which I don't understand I mark with «?»):

 

• LUMIN Power ok
  
• About ok
  
• LUMIN Name ok
  
• Check for Firmware Updates ok
  
• Front Panel Display ok
  
• Idle Sleep ok
  
• Analog Audio Output Level ok (found in this thread)
  
• De-Emphasis for 44.1 kHz CD Files Theory ok, but functions it like on a CD player? It seems that this option has an effect on all 44.1 kHz files, regardless of which have pre-emphasis and which have not. So is it recommended to set it to «Off»?
  
• Digital Audio Output ok. I think the option can be set to «Off», if no digital audio output is needed.
  
• Lumin Streaming ?
  
• Invert Phase ? I don't know in which case this option should be set to ON.
  
• Re-Sampling ok, but what is recommended? «Off» or «Custom»?
  

In case of «Custum Re-Sampling»:

 

• Direct Stream Digital (DSD) ? «Bitstream» or «PCM»? Which one is recommended?
  

In case of «Bitstream»:

 

• 384kHz PCM ? I don't have such files. The option is set to «Disable». Does this mean that the LUMIN is mute, if there is such a file? Is 192kHz the better setting?
  
• 352.8kHz PCM idem
  
• 192kHz PCM ok
  
• 176.4kHz PCM ok
  
• Bitrates from 44.1kHz to 96kHz PCM is upsampling recommended?
  
• PCM Output Bit Depth ok
  

In case of «PCM»:

 

• The same questions as above.
  

Plus:

 

• Are both settings (Bitstream and PCM) active, when I select «Custom» in Direct Stream Digital (DSD)? Does it mean that «PCM» has an effect on PCM-files and «Bitstream» on DSD-files?
  
• If only one of the selected options («Bitstream» or «PCM») is active, which one is recommended?
  

An explication of all this settings in this thread or on the LUMIN homepage would be very helpful for all users.

Thank you for your answers.

[psme]

Ok, here we go!

 

De-Emphasis, on a real CD, there should be a "flag" telling CD player whether to apply de-emphasis on a track or not. Sadly this "flag" info is not retained in a ripped audio file. Hence LUMIN can NOT automatically detect which song should be de-emphasis. Since most CD does NOT need de-emphasis, you should keep De-Emphasis option at Off by default, and only turn it On when you know the song needs de-emphasis. If you're not sure, keep De-Emphasis at Off. (On the other hand, if for some reason you find some song does sound nicer with de-emphasis On, then I guess you are free to set it that way!)

 

Once again, De-Emphasis applies only on 44.1kHz lossless audio file. De-Emphasis has NO effect on high-resoultion file, or when 44.1kHz playback is in upsampling mode.

 

Lumin Streaming, well, it's AirPlay function! If you have no intention to use LUMIN as an AirPlay device, set it Off.

 

Invert Phase, it's Off by default. Some songs were recorded, or mastered in phase inverted, some like to restore to correct phase during playback. Once again, if you are not sure, leave it at Off.

 

Re-Sampling, well, there is no recommendation per se! You need to try it out. Some may prefer some songs at different re-sampling modes.

 

DSD: Bitstream or PCM? If you use analog audio output on LUMIN, always keep DSD at Bitstream. In DSD bitstream mode, the coaxial SPDIF as no output, and the HDMI outputs native DSD bitstream. If you need output signal on SPDIF while playing DSD file, please set DSD to PCM, to enable realtime DSD to PCM conversion.

 

384kHz PCM, the "Disable" setting means there is NO output on SPDIF and HDMI when LUMIN is playing 384kHz file in native 384kHz mode. Only analog audio output. If you needs digital audio output when playing 384kHz (or 352kHz) file, you need to set it to down-sample at lower resolution.

 

The "DSD: Bitstream or PCM" applies on DSD files (.DFF, .DSF, DoP).

 

The 44.1kHz to 384Khz re-sampling modes apply on lossless PCM file (WAV, AIFF, FLAC, ALAC).

[pesantini]

@psme

Thank you very much for your answer. Everything is clear now as far as a non-professional can understand it. I stop the technical questions and enjoy the music!

Greetings from Switzerland

[dariusb]

Hi psme,

 

Do you have any plans in the future to do better(IMHO) integration of the minim server to your Lumin app?

It could be very useful/convenient to have in the Lumin app under "minimserver" field dedicated button to restart minim server and also to have an option to enable/disable transcoding.

 

Thanks in advance,

Darius

 

One more question,what maximum artwork size I can use?

[psme]

LUMIN the player has no concern of artwork size.

 

LUMIN app gets artwork from a UPnP server, in whatever size.

 

Some UPnP server has artwork size limit. Last time I checked jRiver seems limited to 400x400 artwork in UPnP server mode. Some UPnP server may have a configurable artwork size. MinimServer has no artwork size limit I think. I use MinimServer. I think the biggest artwork in my own library is around 4000x4000.

 

In LUMIN app, when you bring up the fullscreen artwork, you can further zoom the image.

[dariusb]

Hi psme,

 

OK, I will ask simon(Minim developer) about artwork size.

What about my previous question?

[psme]

About more integration with MinimServer in LUMIN app, it's up to simon. I asked him if he'd like to open up MinimServer a bit for LUMIN app to have some way of direct access MinimServer settings, but he refused. It's perfectly understandable that MinimServer wants to remain in pure UPnP open standard protocol.

[MikeJazz]

About more integration with MinimServer in LUMIN app, it's up to simon. I asked him if he'd like to open up MinimServer a bit for LUMIN app to have some way of direct access MinimServer settings, but he refused. It's perfectly understandable that MinimServer wants to remain in pure UPnP open standard protocol.

 

In my opinion it would be much more important that you could solve the filtering and navigation issues in Lumin App that stops it to benefict from MinimServer "intelligent browsing"....

[ThierryNK]

Intelligent browsing is a browsing where the user is enough intelligent to have setup every way he would and could search for something.

It has been more than 30 years that this type of function is done by a search inside a database, and not by a predefined exponentionally growing tree browsing.

 

To achieve this, you need a strong integration of the UPNP server, a global tracks database and the control point. To my knowledge, only Jriver/Jremote offer "intelligent browsing" based on a global database search.

 

When I search "110" I find, among other results, piano sonata 31 opus 110 of Beethoven, without need of a predefined tree to reach this, in ONE click, not after 10 clicks inside a tree.

 

Best regards

[MikeJazz]

Intelligent browsing is a browsing where the user is enough intelligent to have setup every way he would and could search for something.

Ok Thierry - and just for you - please correct when I say "Intelligent Browsing", please read as "stupid & click-based browsing"

...for the others ones this comment do not apply, of course...

 

"to have setup every way he would and could search for something."

 

> certainly not a "smart" approach to prepare all possible navigation paths, because of two main reasons

(1) if you have a rich metadata with many categories you have to set up too many paths

(2) paths are fixed, in the sense you cannot jump the logic of the (current) path navigation...

On the other hand, "intelligent browsing" (Thierry, please correct your reading here) as defined by Mininserver, do not demand a fixed path definition. You can jump to any category at anytime....

This is powerful in music tracks navigation, in the way that it enables the user to change it's mind along the way.

An app that allows the user to change it's mind is, I think, intelligent...

 

It has been more than 30 years that this type of function is done by a search inside a database, and not by a predefined exponentionally growing tree browsing.

Should be clear to all that search and browser are two different functions.

Complementary, they might be.

Especially when a good search function can compensate in part for the lack of good browsing.

But where did you read "predefined" in my reference to the "Intelligence browsing" of minimserver?

The fact that it's not predefined it's exactly it's bright side!

 

To achieve this, you need a strong integration of the UPNP server, a global tracks database and the control point. To my knowledge, only Jriver/Jremote offer "intelligent browsing" based on a global database search.

Agree that Jriver/Jremote is the best in search, alongside iTunes - can search globally like iTunes...but it's limited in navigations altought much better than most.

 

When I search "110" I find, among other results, piano sonata 31 opus 110 of Beethoven, without need of a predefined tree to reach this, in ONE click, not after 10 clicks inside a tree.

Yes, try that on LUMIN and let us know...

 

 

Final remarks:

It's now clear that, In my view, browsing and search are different things.

But usually they both produce filtered data.

In the case of Lumin app, there is no filtered data as the output!

If one select the Genre View and select on "Country" genre, the system display not a filtered result of "Country" albums or tracks, but a sorted list of albums or tracks, by Genre, positioned to display the first found "country" albums/track.

So you find also your Electronic albums or whatever...If you search, same thing happens.

 

I am not sure if this is a known limitation or a design option to simplify the app, by Lumin. If you notice, all browse and search produces only a list of sorted tracks, with a variation in viewing in list or using groupings...

 

Thanks!

[ThierryNK]

Hello MikeJazz

 

Well, you may imagine that I have setup and used Minimserver before being a bit rude with its "intelligent browsing".

 

In Minimserver, you have access to refined categories (genre, composers, etc) when you are at a given tree level. Is it this an "intelligent browsing"?

 

You can name it "multi-path" filtering, but to name it "intelligent browsing" seems to me a bit extravagant. OK, Minimserver is free. Does it imply that no comments or criticisms are allowed?

 

About search/browsing:browsing though a tree is nothing else than a search with predefined keywords, and the keywords AND their value are predefined.

 

Browsing by genre "Opera" is exactly equivalent to a search on Genre=Opera nothing more. Then the Minimserver "intelligent browsing" propose when you are at Opera level to have "Composer= Mozart" or "Conductor=Riccardo Muti". This can be read as [Genre=Opera]&[Composer=Mozart].

 

Starting from this equivalence of browsing and searching, better browsing, "intelligent browsing" could start with larger and smarter search function, for example with keywords that are not predefined, and their value is neither predefined.

 

Ok I can define a field that is "opus" or "conductor" or "name and birthdate of the audience". But I do not want to fill hundreds of specific fields to be able to find them! I want to find opus 110 if "somewhere" in any field on an album there is 110.

 

If you do not need this kind of search, OK, you can just walk along your tree and you do not care.

 

As a musician and a classical music addict, I was supposed to be part of the "target users" of Minimserver. With 30 versions of Beethoven Symphonies among several thousands of albums, my needs are to find the orchestras, or the conductors, without having to define and fill thousands of fields. The orchestras, the singers, the conductors are "somewhere" in the album titles or in the comments, the opus or Koeshel are somewhere in the albums titles or the track names.

 

I maintain what I said, UPNP browsing by predefined fields and predefined values, including Minimserver little improvements of refined categories (that can also be done in Foobar for example) is just tree navigation. You can call it intelligent browsing if you want, I will disagree, but I will not start a war about it

 

Did I miss something in Minimserver "intelligent browsing"?

 

Best and kind regards

[MikeJazz]

Hello MikeJazz

 

Did I miss something in Minimserver "intelligent browsing"?

 

Yes, I think you missed the essence of it.

Better to refer to the source than to explain myself.

MinimServer features

[ThierryNK]

I read this a long time ago when I installed Minimserver.

 

And I think I did not miss anything, as I used Minimserver for a while. It means that you can go to Violin/Podger/Bach/Concerti even if you started with Bach or Podger or Concerti without going back up the tree navigation.

 

If you want me to say that this is an improvement over standard tree navigation, OK, I agree.

 

Now if you want to compare all your Bach Concerti by Podger, Stern and others, in a "smart playlist", you are stuck.

 

Kind regards

[MikeJazz]

Hello MikeJazz

 

Well, you may imagine that I have setup and used Minimserver before being a bit rude with its "intelligent browsing".

What control application have you tried, served by minim?

 

In Minimserver, you have access to refined categories (genre, composers, etc) when you are at a given tree level. Is it this an "intelligent browsing"?

No, there is no predifined tree. All categories are at the same level...all available at context, if they have contents at the database.

 

You can name it "multi-path" filtering, but to name it "intelligent browsing" seems to me a bit extravagant.

Ok, the naming is the prerrogative of the sotware owner, but certainly it was the most "intelligent" I tried. And I tried many!

OK, Minimserver is free. Does it imply that no comments or criticisms are allowed?

Of course not...and I have some critics to make at their forum, but browsing is not one of them.

 

About search/browsing:browsing though a tree is nothing else than a search with predefined keywords, and the keywords AND their value are predefined.

Yes, from the technical point of view, a browse is implemented with a "Select" commands from the database...but from the user experience point of view a browsing is different from search, as has the added bonus of show "context" information that might be interesting.

Examples: if you browse "Opera" you might find useful to then display by "Period" custom tag...this could let you get interested in a "Comtemporary" work you were not considering first...on other hand, it easily captures the information of the "Unassigned" category, which is a good help improving your metadata (although I usually do this on JRMC).

 

Browsing by genre "Opera" is exactly equivalent to a search on Genre=Opera nothing more. Then the Minimserver "intelligent browsing" propose when you are at Opera level to have "Composer= Mozart" or "Conductor=Riccardo Muti". This can be read as [Genre=Opera]&[Composer=Mozart].

This is not what I experience. The Minimserver does not propose specific values of "Composer" or "Conductor". You have the option of drill-down to "Composer" or "Conductor" (all of them, inside "Opera") if they are filled with values. Categories that are empty in values for the browsing context are - intelligibly - hidden.

 

Starting from this equivalence of browsing and searching, better browsing, "intelligent browsing" could start with larger and smarter search function, for example with keywords that are not predefined, and their value is neither predefined.

 

Ok I can define a field that is "opus" or "conductor" or "name and birthdate of the audience". But I do not want to fill hundreds of specific fields to be able to find them! I want to find opus 110 if "somewhere" in any field on an album there is 110.

it's perfectly fine that you prefer search over browsing...

In my experience LUMIN falls short also in search, and agree with you Jriver is the best.

 

If you do not need this kind of search, OK, you can just walk along your tree and you do not care.

I need both...in time I believe the control apps will have better search.

 

As a musician and a classical music addict, I was supposed to be part of the "target users" of Minimserver. With 30 versions of Beethoven Symphonies among several thousands of albums, my needs are to find the orchestras, or the conductors, without having to define and fill thousands of fields. The orchestras, the singers, the conductors are "somewhere" in the album titles or in the comments, the opus or Koeshel are somewhere in the albums titles or the track names.

You are clearly not a target user for minimserver, at least for the Browsing function, since you assume that you do not need to have proper tags in place. Writing the conductor "anywhere" does not sound very organized to me...It's perfectly fine, we have two different approaches...

 

I maintain what I said, UPNP browsing by predefined fields and predefined values, including Minimserver little improvements of refined categories (that can also be done in Foobar for example) is just tree navigation.

Hardly...if there is no predefined tree, there is no tree navigation.

No, foobar cannot do it has it does not dynamically generates your tree. You have to think ahead about the tags path you want to use.

In that regard, JRiver is no better, or any other media server I did try (Foobar as server, Twonky, Asset, LMS).

 

The most flexible ones using the standard tree concept are Asset and LMS.

 

Minim was the first I found not to demand that "tree planning" from you...

 

You can call it intelligent browsing if you want, I will disagree, but I will not start a war about it

There is no war, we agree to disagree...

 

Uses that are used to manipulate data in excel, can make a paralell what I explained.

Traditional tree based browsing is like tabular fixed reporting (2 dimension, lines and colums)

the "intelligent" browsing of minim is more like a pivot table, you can manipulate data in all directions, lines, columns, whatever.

 

I am glad to discover you can discuss with no rude comments!