'Audiophile' Ethernet Cables.

[cjf]

I think its magnetic.

 

Not sure I understand what you mean by it being magnetic?

 

As far as I can tell mine uses the power lead of both ethernet cables (input/output) to do what it claims. Each half of the device is powered by what ever equipment is upstream of that half of the ethernet cable.

[John R Leddy]

Is it because I picture packets of data I am unable to hear a change in sound quality between different networking set-ups?

 

My network has utilized cable, powerline, and wireless to transmit data to my network player without a noticeable change to the quality of sound emitting from my loudspeakers.

 

I can't help feeling I'm missing out on what others are hearing.

 

I think I may be concentrating on the music too much.

 

Fortunately I'm not experiencing a loss in sound quality, but I would like to know how to increase the quality when using a particular set-up.

 

I've tried pressing my tongue firmly in my cheek, but I still can't help enjoying my music.

 

What am I doing wrong?

[Jud]

Is it because I picture packets of data I am unable to hear a change in sound quality between different networking set-ups?

 

I've tried pressing my tongue firmly in my cheek, but I still can't help enjoying my music.

 

What am I doing wrong?

 

Nothing, as we all know, Ethernet is exempt from mere physical laws like electrical and RF noise.

[Paul R]

I am sure we are glad you enjoy your music! Perfect thing to do.

 

However, if you try taking your tongue out of your cheek, it might improve your listening experience. Or it might not. Only way to tell about pretty much any audio equipment is to listen.

 

Interesting to me you didn't hear any degradation using a Powerline Networking module. It was clearly an issue here, and probably something to do with the extra signal (noise) on the power lines. (shrug) I suppose next house I build I will string fibre everywhere for the audio network. In the meantime, I just hook audio gear up with normal ethernet Cat 6 cables, and bridge the audio network around using wireless Apple Airport devices. Works exceedingly well.

 

-Paul

 

 

Is it because I picture packets of data I am unable to hear a change in sound quality between different networking set-ups?

 

My network has utilized cable, powerline, and wireless to transmit data to my network player without a noticeable change to the quality of sound emitting from my loudspeakers.

 

I can't help feeling I'm missing out on what others are hearing.

 

I think I may be concentrating on the music too much.

 

Fortunately I'm not experiencing a loss in sound quality, but I would like to know how to increase the quality when using a particular set-up.

 

I've tried pressing my tongue firmly in my cheek, but I still can't help enjoying my music.

 

What am I doing wrong?

[Paul R]

Hi Demian - sorry I didn't reply earlier. Very crude testing, but plugging in an PLN and connecting it to anything really made a nasty difference to the audio. Surprising to me, but it did. Perhaps I just have some poor quality PLN adapters. May try again with a different brand.

 

-Paul

 

 

Powerline networking runs in the 2-30 MHz range on the power line. The peak energy can be 2A in that range. its a ton of noise. The Monster network adapters have a filter to isolate connected loads from the noise that help but cannot be perfect.

 

The obvious test would be to plug in the PLN adapter and connect a laptop to it so its active but not connect it to the audio system.

 

Even the cheap adapters have plenty of bandwidth for audio, they have been designed to support Bluray video (50+ Mbps).

[sdolezalek]

I suppose next house I build I will string fibre everywhere for the audio network. -Paul

 

Paul: That is exactly what I was thinking when we built our house, so I had fibre strung next to Cat5e (no 6 at the time) all throughout the house. But, I have never taken advantage of it because the combination of ethernet and 802.11(n) was plenty for my computing needs. However, I am now looking at streaming music directly from my NAS to several systems in the house and wonder whether it is time to switch to using the fibre?

 

Is anyone actually using a home fibre network for audio and if so, how did you configure it?

[John R Leddy]

I am sure we are glad you enjoy your music! Perfect thing to do.

 

However, if you try taking your tongue out of your cheek, it might improve your listening experience. Or it might not. Only way to tell about pretty much any audio equipment is to listen.

 

Interesting to me you didn't hear any degradation using a Powerline Networking module. It was clearly an issue here, and probably something to do with the extra signal (noise) on the power lines. (shrug) I suppose next house I build I will string fibre everywhere for the audio network. In the meantime, I just hook audio gear up with normal ethernet Cat 6 cables, and bridge the audio network around using wireless Apple Airport devices. Works exceedingly well.

 

-Paul

 

Paul,

 

I don't really doubt others experiencing variable sound quality depending on their network set-ups. I do appreciate our stereos are subjected to different environments. From what I've read elsewhere, I'm either very lucky or stone deaf. Either way, I'm a happy bunny.

 

Thanks for seeing my post as it was meant to be, that is satirical rather than offensive. Not all our cousins get it, but then again we do have stringent export rules concerning our odd sense of humour.

 

All the best,

 

John.

[Paul R]

I can use the fibre-net here for audio in limited locations, and to be honest, what I see and hear are mainly performance based differences, not audio based. I find the best sound seems to be using the SAN.

 

I seriously expect the only benefit of fibre over copper is a relative immunity to EM interference. I also think that is the main downfall of PLN is noise on the power line.

 

-Paul

 

 

Paul: That is exactly what I was thinking when we built our house, so I had fibre strung next to Cat5e (no 6 at the time) all throughout the house. But, I have never taken advantage of it because the combination of ethernet and 802.11(n) was plenty for my computing needs. However, I am now looking at streaming music directly from my NAS to several systems in the house and wonder whether it is time to switch to using the fibre?

 

Is anyone actually using a home fibre network for audio and if so, how did you configure it?

[mayhem13]

 

I seriously expect the only benefit of fibre over copper is a relative immunity to EM interference. I also think that is the main downfall of PLN is noise on the power line.

 

-Paul

 

....which would be readily audible as an increase in the noise floor. All PLN adapters are not created equal, nor are homes electrical systems. Nothing interesting about it really.

[Paul R]

That seems to be the case here. -Paul

 

....which would be readily audible as an increase in the noise floor. All PLN adapters are not created equal, nor are homes electrical systems. Nothing interesting about it really.

[mayhem13]

If you're interested Paul in trying PLN again, I have had great success with Netgear adapters....the AV500 set. Now my house was built in 1984 and the wiring conforms to all of the newest code so take my recommendation with a grain of salt of course.

 

One thing that impressed me about these units. Standard home wiring will typically have two 120 volt phases and share a neutral. Some outlets will be on one phase, some another.....which is the case in my home where the place I needed Net but couldn't run a cable was on the opposite phase as the server. Viola....worked without a hitch, contrary to complaints of many PL users. And in truth, I get higher data transfer speeds on opposing phases than when the units are on the same phase( added a fourth ATV to the bedroom...the wife likes Netflix).

 

So if you wanted to give PLN another go, and you could return the Netgears of they didn't work I'd say give em a try.

[Paul R]

Think these are the same? I can't seem to find the exact model you quoted. -Paul

 

Amazon.com: Netgear XAVB5101 Powerline Nano500 Set(XAVB5101): Computers & Accessories

 

 

 

If you're interested Paul in trying PLN again, I have had great success with Netgear adapters....the AV500 set. Now my house was built in 1984 and the wiring conforms to all of the newest code so take my recommendation with a grain of salt of course.

 

One thing that impressed me about these units. Standard home wiring will typically have two 120 volt phases and share a neutral. Some outlets will be on one phase, some another.....which is the case in my home where the place I needed Net but couldn't run a cable was on the opposite phase as the server. Viola....worked without a hitch, contrary to complaints of many PL users. And in truth, I get higher data transfer speeds on opposing phases than when the units are on the same phase( added a fourth ATV to the bedroom...the wife likes Netflix).

 

So if you wanted to give PLN another go, and you could return the Netgears of they didn't work I'd say give em a try.

[mav52]

Think these are the same? I can't seem to find the exact model you quoted. -Paul

 

Amazon.com: Netgear XAVB5101 Powerline Nano500 Set(XAVB5101): Computers & Accessories

XAVB5001 that's what I used for the up stairs . yep it is the av500

[Paul R]

Thanks Mav - I'll pick these up if I cannot find them new somewhere. -Paul

[mayhem13]

Yep...that's them.

[eternaloptimist]

Oh for goodness sakes...

"Audiophile grade ethernet cables"?? If you want a sturdier, better looking cable, no problem.

But an audible difference?? You have got to be kidding me. This is the digital world of packet transmission and buffers... not analogue.

I left one forum because the snake oil had just drowned it. Is this going to happen here too??

We will be the laughing stock if we buy this nonsense.

The Emperor has no clothers, people! Dammit. Off to the music forums...

[1audio]

Not sure I understand what you mean by it being magnetic?

 

As far as I can tell mine uses the power lead of both ethernet cables (input/output) to do what it claims. Each half of the device is powered by what ever equipment is upstream of that half of the ethernet cable.

 

Sorry for the slow response/explanation- There is no power on Ethernet (except in special cases). Those are transformers. The Ethernet signals are transformer isolated at the connector on your computer and the router. However an additional transformer may improve the isolation. The magnetics are inside are pretty complex to get the isolation and the bandpass. Gigabit Ethernet requires 4 transformers in the box.

[Jsmith]

Oh for goodness sakes...

"Audiophile grade ethernet cables"?? If you want a sturdier, better looking cable, no problem.

But an audible difference?? You have got to be kidding me. This is the digital world of packet transmission and buffers... not analogue.

I left one forum because the snake oil had just drowned it. Is this going to happen here too??

We will be the laughing stock if we buy this nonsense.

The Emperor has no clothers, people! Dammit. Off to the music forums...

 

Have you personally tested this? How about a situation where your Ethernet cable for your audio system ran right next to a noisy TV power line? To me the biggest concern is not the data in the cable but rather the cables ability to pick up and transmit outside noise. So yes, you could just buy a decently shielded cable and attach some ferrite chokes. Or you can buy an expensive cables that does this for you.

 

Why not contribute and post why you think this is snake oil.

[4est]

Why not contribute and post why you think this is snake oil.

 

Careful what you ask for!

[ringenesherre]

Have you personally tested this? How about a situation where your Ethernet cable for your audio system ran right next to a noisy TV power line? To me the biggest concern is not the data in the cable but rather the cables ability to pick up and transmit outside noise. So yes, you could just buy a decently shielded cable and attach some ferrite chokes. Or you can buy an expensive cables that does this for you.

 

Why not contribute and post why you think this is snake oil.

 

Oh come on, if you care about noise pickup etc. in a properly shielded Cat6 cable, why not go optical fibre? With some high-quality media converters this still looks cheap compared to a lot of these snake oils out there ;-)

 

Cheers,

Peter

[eternaloptimist]

Careful what you ask for!

 

OK, you asked

In data transfer across a network utilising TCP/IP, data is in packets. It either arrives or not. Packet loss can be measured. It either arrives in time to fill the buffer... or not. Timing is not important - it arrives in time, or not.

Equally, *noise* (a word which is bandied around a lot), would have to be severe enough to disrupt packet transmission - in which case the packets don't arrive, the buffer isn't filled and the music stops. This is the beauty (yes, the beauty!) of digital. The "input" bitstream side to the software player is not going to be corrupted unless there is a severe communication disruption. Incidentally, I certainly experienced this with a poorly setup antivirus program that wanted to inspect all incoming NAS data - the music stuttered.

 

On the "other side" of the player, where digital bits of info are fed to a DAC, then of course timing matters. On the analogue side of the DAC, we are then back in the land of traditional audiophiles!

 

So... the ethernet cable either transmits the packets, or not. If the cable is well made, sturdy etc. with good electrically sound connections, then it is as good as any. "Audiophile ethernet cable" - marketing hoopla.

 

Analogue side cable differences, e.g. with different speaker cables - are, on the other hand, definitely plausible and there is good blinded data to show differences exist.

[sandyk]

Analogue side cable differences, e.g. with different speaker cables - are, on the other hand, definitely plausible and there is good blinded data to show differences exist.

 

And the reports in numerous threads and posts about the SQ differences between different makes/ types and different lengths of USB cables of less than 5 feet ?

[Jud]

OK, you asked

In data transfer across a network utilising TCP/IP, data is in packets. It either arrives or not. Packet loss can be measured. It either arrives in time to fill the buffer... or not. Timing is not important - it arrives in time, or not.

Equally, *noise* (a word which is bandied around a lot), would have to be severe enough to disrupt packet transmission - in which case the packets don't arrive, the buffer isn't filled and the music stops. This is the beauty (yes, the beauty!) of digital. The "input" bitstream side to the software player is not going to be corrupted unless there is a severe communication disruption. Incidentally, I certainly experienced this with a poorly setup antivirus program that wanted to inspect all incoming NAS data - the music stuttered.

 

On the "other side" of the player, where digital bits of info are fed to a DAC, then of course timing matters. On the analogue side of the DAC, we are then back in the land of traditional audiophiles!

 

So... the ethernet cable either transmits the packets, or not. If the cable is well made, sturdy etc. with good electrically sound connections, then it is as good as any. "Audiophile ethernet cable" - marketing hoopla.

 

Analogue side cable differences, e.g. with different speaker cables - are, on the other hand, definitely plausible and there is good blinded data to show differences exist.

 

Hey, Optimist, nicely laid out statement.

 

I'd ask you to consider two possible sources of differences in sound, short of noise or some other problem actually causing lost packets. I'm not a tech guy, so please forgive me if any of this is just plain wrong, but at least this is what I believe I understand from reading:

 

- This "Never the twain shall meet" stuff isn't all it's cracked up to be: Isolation between digital and analog circuitry is not perfect, so noise carried via a digital-side cable, such as Ethernet, can get into analog circuitry, for instance through ground.

 

- I'm all shook up: Noise into the DAC's digital circuitry can affect the DAC's clock, causing jitter.

[eternaloptimist]

And the reports in numerous threads and posts about the SQ differences between different makes/ types and different lengths of USB cables of less than 5 feet ?

 

Again, this is digital side... The likelihood of there being a genuine difference rather than a psychoacoustic cause for the described difference is much, much lower given known physics. Hence the burden of proof is much higher. Where is the blinded data? Case reports and anecdotes are fun and I enjoy making them myself. I do not, however, claim any of my hobby-based musings / observations as evidence. I am very open to the possibility of psycho-acoustic effects.

 

Incidentally, am willing to believe there are purple aliens on the dark side of the moon... but it is so unlikely that I would want to see spectacular proof! Speaker cable differences - likely to be small but plausible based on physics. Ethernet cable differences, eg from NAS to PC making a difference. Highly implausible, would need rigorously demonstrated evidence - much more than forum anecdotes. I will run naked down the Main Street of Albury if in an ABX test, a fancy Ethernet cable (or USB cable for that matter) can be reliably picked from a solidly built generic cable built to standard specification! By the way, this is not a sight anyone should have to witness, so I hope I am not wrong!

[Jud]

Again, this is digital side...

 

I will run naked down the Main Street of Albury if in an ABX test, a fancy Ethernet cable (or USB cable for that matter) can be reliably picked from a solidly built generic cable built to standard specification! By the way, this is not a sight anyone should have to witness, so I hope I am not wrong!

 

Ooh, Albury where? :-D

 

'Cause I don't know about Ethernet cables, but I definitely believe I hear differences in USB cables, even feeding the async USB input in my DAC.

 

I also have some thoughts about possible ways to improve the discriminatory value of A/B (or A/B/X) testing that I keep threatening to put down in a thread I started. Time for me to buckle down and do that in the next 2-3 days.