'Audiophile' Ethernet Cables.

[Paul R]

That is very much like saying that clothes designer "A" better be able to prove that his or her products are "better" than designer "B"'s products.

 

Huh- that dog don't hunt with women, I can assure you.

 

I'll point out that I've transmitted files via FTP to a remote system, immediately downloaded the file I uploaded, and they don't compare. It's rare, but it happens. Moreover, you really think a S/PDIF signal, or a USB signal for that matter is foolproof error corrected? If so, then I fear you greatly underestimate the fools...

 

It's perfectly okay if you don't accept [redacted] that "digital" cables can, annoyingly, act like analog cables upon occasion. But not everyone if going to agree with you. I can not tell you why two USB cables can sound different. But in my experience, and the experience of many people whose opinions I respect, they certainly can.

 

Yours,

-Paul

 

 

 

My personal opinion is that if an audio-cable company wants to sell expensive Ethernet cable, they better have the equipment to prove that it handles RF/EMI better than the less expensive cables used in intensive settings like data centers and they also need to make detailed specs available. They always say: After X years of prototyping and doing listening tests, this wondrous cable has been created. Maybe this is ok for analog, but I don't accept this approach for any digital, but especially packet based.

[VandyMan]

That is very much like saying that clothes designer "A" better be able to prove that his or her products are "better" than designer "B"'s products. Huh- that dog don't hunt with women, I can assure you.

 

Actually Paul, your analogy is exactly my issue with digital cables and much of high-end in general. I don't waste my money on audio fashion. Audio design should be a field for people who are engineers first. Hopefully they have novel, creative ideas, but the domain for this is solutions to engineering problems.

 

It is one thing for an audio company to say they don't know why something sounds better, but hey, give it a listen. Not my cup of tea, but at least it is honest. However, when audio companies use measurable criteria such as jitter and electrical interference to argue for us to buy expensive products that most engineers in the field think are not needed, they do have an obligation to provide real data. Or they do if they want my money, anyway.

 

Moreover, you really think a S/PDIF signal, or a USB signal for that matter is foolproof error corrected?

 

You obviously don't know much about transmission protocols. USB and Ethernet, which are packet-based, both have built in error correction. It is very easy check the error rate of these types of connections. I am 100% certain that with a to-spec USB cable the error rate will NOT be the explanation of any sound differences. This is why most cable manufactures talk about things like electrical interference instead of error rates.

 

I can not tell you why two USB cables can sound different. But in my experience, and the experience of many people whose opinions I respect, they certainly can.

 

Well then by all means, please demo a $500 Ethernet cable (we are mainly discussing Ethernet, right?) and let us know how it sounds to you. I'm very skeptical about USB cables and, to be honest, down right hostile to the companies making outlandish claims about Ethernet cables, because this type of advertising hyperbolye nearly crosses the line into fraud. That said, I feel no hostility to individuals who believe the hype or enjoy their cables.

 

But not everyone if going to agree with you.

 

There would not be much point of these discussion if we all agreed.

 

Huh- that dog don't hunt with women, I can assure you.

 

I'm not sure if you are trying to be funny or nasty. My lovely girlfriend is an electrical engineer and she has much less patients for this BS than I do.

[VandyMan]

and she has much less patients for this BS than I do.

 

I wish I could fix this spelling error and tone down my post above, but CA lost all my edits. Can't make changes after ten minutes. :-(

[Jud]

I wish I could fix this spelling error and tone down my post above, but CA lost all my edits. Can't make changes after ten minutes. :-(

 

Tone it down? Heck, I could hardly tell what your viewpoint was. ;-)

 

dnoyeB and Vandyman, I owe you both some responses in this thread to valid issues you've raised, and will do that when I have a bit more time.

[Krisbee]

and she has much less patients for this BS than I do.

 

I can just visualise the crowded waiting room in my Local GP surgery or NHS Hospital with all the people needing BS treatment. ;-)

 

I think audiophile ethernet cables is one disease for which I might have natural immunity.

[Paul R]

Actually Paul, your analogy is exactly my issue with digital cables and much of high-end in general. I don't waste my money on audio fashion. Audio design should be a field for people who are engineers first. Hopefully they have novel, creative ideas, but the domain for this is solutions to engineering problems.

 

Actually, really good audio design is done my musicians who enjoy listening to music and who also have electronics experience - and most of all - talent. Or an electronics engineer who is also a musician and listens to music. Or a music listener who also happens to be an electronics engineer and play an instrument. The only real requirement is the TALENT part. Everything else can be *learned*.

 

 

It is one thing for an audio company to say they don't know why something sounds better, but hey, give it a listen. Not my cup of tea, but at least it is honest. However, when audio companies use measurable criteria such as jitter and electrical interference to argue for us to buy expensive products that most engineers in the field think are not needed, they do have an obligation to provide real data. Or they do if they want my money, anyway.

[/Quote]

 

I have yet to see an audio company capable of forcing you to buy something you don't like or don't wish to buy.

 

 

You obviously don't know much about transmission protocols. USB and Ethernet, which are packet-based, both have built in error correction. It is very easy check the error rate of these types of connections. I am 100% certain that with a to-spec USB cable the error rate will NOT be the explanation of any sound differences. This is why most cable manufactures talk about things like electrical interference instead of error rates.

[/Quote]

 

Well, that is a matter of purest opinion, not fact. People have Ethernet transmissions, over copper, fibre, radio, or any combination thereof scrambled each and every day. As for how much I know or don't know, I know there is a lot I do not know. Everytime some cussed router acts up at 3:00am I know I should have been a high school band director...

 

 

 

Well then by all means, please demo a $500 Ethernet cable (we are mainly discussing Ethernet, right?) and let us know how it sounds to you. I'm very skeptical about USB cables and, to be honest, down right hostile to the companies making outlandish claims about Ethernet cables, because this type of advertising hyperbolye nearly crosses the line into fraud. That said, I feel no hostility to individuals who believe the hype or enjoy their cables.

[/Quote]

 

I have. I don't hear any difference. But that is no excuse for the hostility either. That's just plain bad manners to be honest.

 

 

 

There would not be much point of these discussion if we all agreed.

 

 

 

I'm not sure if you are trying to be funny or nasty. My lovely girlfriend is an electrical engineer and she has much less patients for this BS than I do.[/Quote]

 

You obviously do not live in Texas. It was meant as humor. Think about it.

 

-Paul

[junker]

The IP packets have a header checksum to insure each header is "bit perfect" and not corrupted, or it is resent.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPv4_header_checksum

 

Secondly, the onus is absolutely on these manufacturers to demonstrate the technical need for their product. Do we even have a shred of evidence that they surpass the Cat6 standard? Or in any way lower the rate of packets being resent?

 

Someone can easily test this. Go buy a run of AQ Diamond ethernet, and an equal length of Cat6. Copy an entire drive over the cable and see if there is a statistically significant difference. I think only your wallet will be six sigma lighter.

[VandyMan]

Actually, really good audio design is done by musicians

 

Wow, we have a fundamentally different understanding. That is fine, but I don't think it makes much sense to continue the debate. Ethernet cables, designed by musicians. Wow!

[Paul R]

Actually, I question your understanding at all.

 

How ridiculous indeed - I was actually talking about audio equipment, as you well know. And you didn't finish the quote either - that would be a person who is:

 

 

• A Musician plus
  
• An Electronics Engineer plus
  
• A Music Lover plus
  
• Talented
  
• =
  
• Someone Like Gordon Rankin.
  

 

As for ethernet cables, it isn't worth arguing about, at least in public. Contact me offline if you want to argue credentials.

-Paul

 

Wow, we have a fundamentally different understanding. That is fine, but I don't think it makes much sense to continue the debate. Ethernet cables, designed by musicians. Wow!

[Paul R]

Sure they do - and if they are sent via TCP they will even be retransmitted if there is an error, and reordered when they arrive out of order. What do you think that has got to do with the cable? Nevermind, it has *nothing* to do with the cable. The cable doesn't know a thing about checksums and such.

 

Have you looked at error rates in typical networks? You might want to. And remember, the physical transmission is always analog- and affected by several other factors as well.

 

Given all that, I have publicly stated I don't hear any difference between ethernet cables. But that doesn't mean there isn't a difference, it only means I cannot hear it.

 

-Paul

 

 

The IP packets have a header checksum to insure each header is "bit perfect" and not corrupted, or it is resent.

 

IPv4 header checksum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

Secondly, the onus is absolutely on these manufacturers to demonstrate the technical need for their product. Do we even have a shred of evidence that they surpass the Cat6 standard? Or in any way lower the rate of packets being resent?

 

Someone can easily test this. Go buy a run of AQ Diamond ethernet, and an equal length of Cat6. Copy an entire drive over the cable and see if there is a statistically significant difference. I think only your wallet will be six sigma lighter.

[junker]

I'll be unsubscribing from this thread as I don't see anything compelling in terms of adding to my knowledge, in any possible way, as to how these "audiophile" quality products would improve the quality of my network or the quality of the music as compared to that of a decent off-the-shelf Cat5e or Cat6 cables of a reasonable length.

 

I'll leave you with one last bit of information from my SSD MacMini that has probably been up continuously for several days. Out of over 26 million TCP/IP packets received there were 0 Errors and 0 Collisions. With this data, and a rudimentary knowledge of TCP/IP and ethernet, I honestly have to say that I just don't see it. I'd strongly advise anyone from wasting their money on these products, and if someone who actually believes in this type of product, then I urge you to collect some data - either network performance data or some sort of constructive QSAR testing - to validate you position. I can say I certainly haven't seen any data much less compelling or valid data from the product manufacturers that support the performance improvements they are implicitly claiming by calling them "audiophile quality".

 

[Paul R]

I'll be unsubscribing from this thread as I don't see anything compelling in terms of adding to my knowledge, in any possible way, as to how these "audiophile" quality products would improve the quality of my network or the quality of the music as compared to that of a decent off-the-shelf Cat5e or Cat6 cables of a reasonable length.

 

I'll leave you with one last bit of information from my SSD MacMini that has probably been up continuously for several days. Out of over 26 million TCP/IP packets received there were 0 Errors and 0 Collisions. With this data, and a rudimentary knowledge of TCP/IP and ethernet, I honestly have to say that I just don't see it. I'd strongly advise anyone from wasting their money on these products, and if someone who actually believes in this type of product, then I urge you to collect some data - either network performance data or some sort of constructive QSAR testing - to validate you position. I can say I certainly haven't seen any data much less compelling or valid data from the product manufacturers that support the performance improvements they are implicitly claiming by calling them "audiophile quality".

 

Or, people can just pretty much do what they please in regards to Ethernet, USB, speaker, or other cables, regardless of what we or anyone else thinks.

 

Why doesn't your screenshot below have a hardware address for the ethernet port? That's just wierd...

 

-Paul

 

 

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3845[/ATTACH][/Quote]

[Audio_ELF]

Why doesn't your screenshot below have a hardware address for the ethernet port? That's just wierd...

It looks like he has blanked it out for privacy to me Paul...

[VandyMan]

How ridiculous indeed - I was actually talking about audio equipment, as you well know. And you didn't finish the quote either - that would be a person who is:

 

I thought we were talking about Ethernet cables i.e. the subject of this forum thread. I see engineering as a creative profession, when done well, and do not agree in the slightest that one needs to have musical talent to be a great designer of audio equipment. It can't hurt, but being a great engineer is not something you can learn on the side, especially with digital. (Yes, a handful of exceptional polymaths can do it all.) It takes training, practice, and dedication. Just like being a musician.

[Paul R]

Didn't think of that - thanks. -Paul

 

It looks like he has blanked it out for privacy to me Paul...

[VandyMan]

It looks like he has blanked it out for privacy to me Paul...

 

I think so. It is shown on my Mac. If anyone wants to try, this is the "Network Utility" application which is in the Mac's "Utility" folder. Mine shows 77 million packets without an error.

[Paul R]

We will simply have to disagree.

 

I am a certified Software Engineer, and to get there, I had to learn how to weld. Welding doesn't have much of anything to do with Software, but it was the "engineer" part of the title that required me to do that.

 

An Electronics Engineer without any musical talent, appreciation, or aptitude designing a piece of audio gear is likely doing it "by the book" and who knows what the result will be? It probably won't be good though.

 

He or she does not even know what to listen for in the final product, much less what caused specific changes in the sound. Like a Software Engineer who doesn't know how to weld, something is missing.

 

Note that I refer to talent and aptitude - a normal person can learn and become proficient at any task they set their minds to. But to do a great job in any field, you have to have talent and aptitude.

 

Engineering - any engineering field - is no different. I know mediocre EEs who would be much better accountants, and some mediocre accountants who would be superstar programmers. Not to mention mediocre musicians who would be much better engineers or producers.

 

 

 

I thought we were talking about Ethernet cables i.e. the subject of this forum thread. I see engineering as a creative profession, when done well, and do not agree in the slightest that one needs to have musical talent to be a great designer of audio equipment. It can't hurt, but being a great engineer is not something you can learn on the side, especially with digital. (Yes, a handful of exceptional polymaths can do it all.) It takes training, practice, and dedication. Just like being a musician.

[junker]

Saw that AQ ethernet cables were Cat7 for 10Gb, so I ordered a 1,3, and 7 ft Cat7 in white to do between the modem and router, the NAS and the router, and to the MacMini. Came to $35 shipped from Amazon. I'll post pics in about a week.

[Paul R]

One with a degree and a license certificate of course. What would you *think* it was? Not all states require certification and licensing, yet. But some do and the rest will follow sooner or later. Same as any other engineering discipline.

 

-Paul

 

 

 

 

What is a "certified" software engineer?

[Krisbee]

What is a "certified" software engineer?

 

You don't have to be mad to read this thread, but it helps

[junker]

Microsoft, Oracle... All sort of types...

[kevalin]

And now for something completely different...

 

What is the best way to install ethernet cable from one room to the next? My NAS drive can go in the office and I can either snake the cable through the heating duct work or through the power conduate where it parallels 120V AC Romex. My walls are atypical...non load bearing since the exposed beams are inside the house. The walls consist of styrofoam flanked by 3/4" plywood. The Romex runs through a pre-cut channel. I am tempted to run it through the latter, since I bet mice will chew up anything in the ductwork. I guess I could get a cat, but if it chewed up $$ cables, I will skin it.

[Paul R]

Running ethernet parallel to power cables is a bad idea, don't do that. Using the heating ducts isn't a great idea either, unless the cable is plenum rated, and really, not even then.

 

If the walls are simply styrofoam, could you not just run a separate conduit for the ethernet cables?

 

-Paul

 

 

And now for something completely different...

 

What is the best way to install ethernet cable from one room to the next? My NAS drive can go in the office and I can either snake the cable through the heating duct work or through the power conduate where it parallels 120V AC Romex. My walls are atypical...non load bearing since the exposed beams are inside the house. The walls consist of styrofoam flanked by 3/4" plywood. The Romex runs through a pre-cut channel. I am tempted to run it through the latter, since I bet mice will chew up anything in the ductwork. I guess I could get a cat, but if it chewed up $$ cables, I will skin it.

[macbrush]

Not only that it is a bad idea to run low voltage cable parallel to a power cable in technical point of view, it is also illegal in some countries. You should check the local regulation.

 

And now for something completely different...

 

What is the best way to install ethernet cable from one room to the next? My NAS drive can go in the office and I can either snake the cable through the heating duct work or through the power conduate where it parallels 120V AC Romex. My walls are atypical...non load bearing since the exposed beams are inside the house. The walls consist of styrofoam flanked by 3/4" plywood. The Romex runs through a pre-cut channel. I am tempted to run it through the latter, since I bet mice will chew up anything in the ductwork. I guess I could get a cat, but if it chewed up $$ cables, I will skin it.

[kevalin]

Paul, I appreciate your thoughts.

 

The styrofoam is solid. There is no way. I pull the trim and run it along the floor then encase the cable in new trim along the support pillars of the house to keep it covered. I was going to run cheaper bulk Audioquest ethernet cable and spice them with the kit they provide.

 

If you have any other thoughts, let me know.