New NAS or Storage For My Music

[The Computer Audiophile]

Hi Guys, my QNAP TVS-872XT is dying a slow death, with errors that require me to send the unit in for an expensive repair. Rather than spend money to fix my current unit, I'm looking at new units or other ways to accomplish the same thing. The main companies I'm looking at are QNAP, Synology, and TrueNAS. However, I'd love to hear what others are doing for storage of 20 terabytes, with access to this from a variety of devices, redundancy, and the ability to backup to USB drives.

 

The ability to run Audirvana on QNAP has me really excited, but it isn't a showstopper for me if the NAS can't run Audirvana. 

[AudioDoctor]

One of these running TrueNAS scale.  https://store.45homelab.com/configure/hl15

 

Can it run any music playback software we might use? I don't think so... Can it run Minimserver? maybe? Can it store a lot of stuff, easily and less expensively than other solutions, yes.

[AudioDoctor]

Oh, and unlike almost any other NAS you can buy, this one will last a very long time as all the components are up gradable and the case is sturdy enough to last a lifetime.

[The Computer Audiophile]

3 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

One of these running TrueNAS scale.  https://store.45homelab.com/configure/hl15

 

Can it run any music playback software we might use? I don't think so... Can it run Minimserver? maybe? Can it store a lot of stuff, easily and less expensively than other solutions, yes.

Thanks Doc. This is what I hoped for when I asked the question. It's hard to keep track of all the solutions available. 

[AudioDoctor]

Just now, The Computer Audiophile said:

Thanks Doc. This is what I hoped for when I asked the question. It's hard to keep track of all the solutions available. 

 

You're welcome. True NAS scale is debian, and that means, I think, that Minimserver can be made to work on it without too much hassle. I haven't dug into it yet, nor have I talked to the developer of Minimserver. heck, for all I know it's as simple as getting a few dependencies.

[stefano_mbp]

55 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

True NAS scale is debian, and that means, I think, that Minimserver can be made to work on it without too much hassle

Unfortunately it doesn’t work

[stefano_mbp]

… but is a nas the right solution?

Nas have the task of sharing data between multiple users with different access rules/rights but is a music archive the same thing?

In a music archive data is static, the only need is to make it accessible to different players.

If you have a consistent backup strategy redundancy isn’t so indispensable therefore RAID isn’t a must (apart from the possible need to have service continuity).

As far as I know (reading about different issues) nas are quite a “closed” system (Qnap much less then others) … for example TrueNas cannot run (as of now) Minimserver, Synology cannot run Bubbleupnpserver (you must use containers/dockers) and so on.

Where is the real advantage in a nas for a music archive management?

Maybe a “simple” Linux server running for example Ubuntu can make the job easier 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

Hi @stefano_mbp, all good points. No solution is perfect for everyone that's for sure. 

 

 

 

17 minutes ago, stefano_mbp said:

… but is a nas the right solution?

 

For me, I believe so. 

 

 

 

17 minutes ago, stefano_mbp said:

Nas have the task of sharing data between multiple users with different access rules/rights but is a music archive the same thing?

 

I share music between BluOS devices, macOS devices, Windows devices, Linux devices, Lumin devices, etc...

 

 

 

17 minutes ago, stefano_mbp said:

In a music archive data is static, the only need is to make it accessible to different players.

 

I add to my collection at least once per week, and often much more. Now that I'm into immersive audio, I've purchased more music than in the last ten years combined. 

 

 

 

17 minutes ago, stefano_mbp said:

If you have a consistent backup strategy redundancy isn’t so indispensable therefore RAID isn’t a must (apart from the possible need to have service continuity).

 

One thing about different RAID configurations that is often overlooked is speed. I have an 8 drive array right now, and it's really fast reading and writing data to/from it. 

 

 

 

 

17 minutes ago, stefano_mbp said:

Where is the real advantage in a nas for a music archive management?

 

There are many advantages. I can configure my QNAP to automatically backup my Aurender servers, automatically backup to iDrive, automatically backup to attached USB drives, run MinimServer, run Audirvana, run Roon, be accessible to any device in my house, etc...

 

 

 

17 minutes ago, stefano_mbp said:

Maybe a “simple” Linux server running for example Ubuntu can make the job easier 

 

Every time I consider this path, I end up reinventing the wheel, by building essentially a NAS. 

 

I hear you though, a NAS isn't for everyone. My needs are different from many people. 

[AudioDoctor]

41 minutes ago, stefano_mbp said:

Unfortunately it doesn’t work

 

That's a bummer, perhaps you can express a desire to have it work here:  https://forum.minimserver.com/showthread.php?tid=7226&pid=50010#pid50010

[stefano_mbp]

1 minute ago, AudioDoctor said:

 

That's a bummer, perhaps you can express a desire to have it work here:  https://forum.minimserver.com/showthread.php?tid=7226&pid=50010#pid50010

Everything is theoretically possible, maybe in the future … why not. But right now it doesn’t work.

Anyway nas is not cup of tea, my personal opinion is that managing a music archive with a nas is like going sparrow hunting with a battleship, a Linux server is way lighter and easier than a nas … in a normal environment 

 

[AudioDoctor]

38 minutes ago, stefano_mbp said:

Where is the real advantage in a nas for a music archive management?

 

In the case of TrueNAS, ZFS and all the advantages that brings with it. As well as integration with various offsite cloud services. I choose to use Backblaze B2.

The talk of speed of the array is true. I actually switched from the iXsystems TrueNAS mini xl+ device to the 45Homelab device after considering my usage, the price of the devices versus future expandability, which means I have 15 4TB drives in a RAIDZ3 configuration, on a 10Gig LAN. I can copy and write faster than my computer can let me know the operation is finished most of the time. Like Chris, I am constantly adding to my music collection by either downloading new albums, buying or being gifted CDs, or ripping a vinyl album that I can't find in a digital format anywhere else. My NAS has also taken over for iCloud photo and phone backup via a cool app on my and my SOs iPhones, as well as my wifes Time Machine backup and her work data and files and finally the files for my families charity that we legally need. The only thing it can't do, yet, is run Minimserver. I can run Minimserver on my desktop and direct it to the SMB share of my music files however.

[AudioDoctor]

You know... Logitech Media Server is an app that is installable on TrueNAS  so that's another possibility. I think JPLAY can work with that as well.

https://www.truenas.com/apps/

[AudioDoctor]

11 hours ago, AudioDoctor said:

faster than my computer can let me know the operation is finished most of the time.

 

This should read, faster than my computer can let me know the operation has started.

[stefano_mbp]

On 4/27/2024 at 9:16 AM, AudioDoctor said:

You know... Logitech Media Server is an app that is installable on TrueNAS  so that's another possibility. I think JPLAY can work with that as well.

https://www.truenas.com/apps/

it is certainly a possibility but LMS has very limited tag management (at least for classical music) and library browsing is only hierarchical, therefore very penalizing compared to Minimserver.

This is a first level view of my Minimserver library and with such details its “intelligent browsing” functionality is second to none

.

JPlay can work with LMS if you enable UPNP bridge plugin but all LMS limitations are obviously “mirrored” in JPlay

[AudioDoctor]

3 hours ago, stefano_mbp said:

it is certainly a possibility but LMS has very limited tag management (at least for classical music) and library browsing is only hierarchical, therefore very penalizing compared to Minimserver.

This is a first level view of my Minimserver library and with such details its “intelligent browsing” functionality is second to none

.

JPlay can work with LMS if you enable UPNP bridge plugin but all LMS limitations are obviously “mirrored” in JPlay

 

Which is why I am working to get Minimserver operational in a docker container.

[DuckToller]

On 4/26/2024 at 9:29 PM, The Computer Audiophile said:

Hi @stefano_mbp, all good points. No solution is perfect for everyone that's for sure. 

 

 

 

 

For me, I believe so. 

 

 

 

 

I share music between BluOS devices, macOS devices, Windows devices, Linux devices, Lumin devices, etc...

 

 

 

 

I add to my collection at least once per week, and often much more. Now that I'm into immersive audio, I've purchased more music than in the last ten years combined. 

 

 

 

 

One thing about different RAID configurations that is often overlooked is speed. I have an 8 drive array right now, and it's really fast reading and writing data to/from it. 

 

 

 

 

 

There are many advantages. I can configure my QNAP to automatically backup my Aurender servers, automatically backup to iDrive, automatically backup to attached USB drives, run MinimServer, run Audirvana, run Roon, be accessible to any device in my house, etc...

 

 

 

 

Every time I consider this path, I end up reinventing the wheel, by building essentially a NAS. 

 

I hear you though, a NAS isn't for everyone. My needs are different from many people. 

Hi Chris (@The Computer Audiophile),

reading through your post I was thinking: What, already EoL for his recent QNAP NAS?

Following up on this thought, I'd like to ask whether your heavy duty treatment is the reason for exhausting your device, or if it is just a matter of technical progress ?

In both cases, one possible strategy - which overlaps a bit with @stefano_mbp's ideas, could be to build a safe and secure NAS (as a storage and backup device) with two satellites purpose build PC/Mini-NAS using NVME's and fiber connections. One for multichannel, and the other for stereo. You could extend your TOTL NAS endurance by only incremental updates to the satellites, and live up to the next generation hardware with your satellites once you feel it's necessary.

 

I'd be happy to read which considerations would keep this idea on a distance to your preferred solution ?

Enjoy your Sunday !

Tom

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

8 hours ago, DuckToller said:

Hi Chris (@The Computer Audiophile),

reading through your post I was thinking: What, already EoL for his recent QNAP NAS?

Following up on this thought, I'd like to ask whether your heavy duty treatment is the reason for exhausting your device, or if it is just a matter of technical progress ?

In both cases, one possible strategy - which overlaps a bit with @stefano_mbp's ideas, could be to build a safe and secure NAS (as a storage and backup device) with two satellites purpose build PC/Mini-NAS using NVME's and fiber connections. One for multichannel, and the other for stereo. You could extend your TOTL NAS endurance by only incremental updates to the satellites, and live up to the next generation hardware with your satellites once you feel it's necessary.

 

I'd be happy to read which considerations would keep this idea on a distance to your preferred solution ?

Enjoy your Sunday !

Tom

 

Hi Tom!

 

All good topics. 
 

My NAS is still a current unit, but I believe the backplane has an issue, causing errors. QNAP wants $500 to fix it. That certainly an option as well. 
 

I’m definitely hard on hardware like this, as I reboot it often, try different drives, reconfigure it, etc.. frequently. If I just installed it and let it run in a standard way, it may be just fine. I really don’t know. 
 

I’ve thought about using local NVMe drives for immersive content, but by the time I configure more drives, backup, etc… I spend more money for more points of failure. 
 

I currently use a single 10GbE NAS, that everything can access. Its blazing fast with an 8 drive array. 
 

I like to try other solutions, I like to write about using other solutions because there isn’t a single solution for everyone. I just struggle to find a better solution than a NAS. I’m all ears though. 

[jcbenten]

In the same predicament on what to do when the QNAP fails.  I have one with the defective Celeron processor where the voltage degrades over time.  I have added a resistor to get it working again but the consensus is that it is only a matter of time.

 

Do I replace?

Or do I use this old giant Alienware Aurora R1 sitting here and repurpose?  It has an i7-980 so probably a new MB/CPU/RAM and would be fine...lots of 3.5" HD slots.

Or chuck it all and use external HDs with an RPI?

 

The NAS is great but I only use mine for storage and LMS...and the Celeron is super slow.

 

You use case is a bit heavier than mine...I think an NAS with several SSD slots and 8-12 3.5" slots backed up by a DAS would be an option.  Are you still running the older NAS as a backup of the primary NAS?

 

I think it needs a bottle of wine/pot of tea and Atom Heart Mother and some heavy contemplating.  Interested to see how this plays out.

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

7 minutes ago, jcbenten said:

I think it needs a bottle of wine/pot of tea and Atom Heart Mother and some heavy contemplating.  Interested to see how this plays out.

Totally!

 

 

I change my stuff around way too much, but I like to understand how it all works and find solutions for others while testing. Currently the QNAP is backing itself up to two locally attached USB drives and to iDrive cloud. 

 

I was thinking about a new RPi 5 based NAS, but I think they are really slow at disk access. it would drive me nuts when moving 25GB of immersive audio to/from it. 

 

This morning I was thinking about attaching my USB drives to a Windows PC I have here, and to keep using them for backup. Then adding an SSD for immersive content to my laptop that I use for immersive playback, and an SSD to the Windows machine for stereo content. By the time I configure a good enclosure and good SSD, the price is close to the cost of a new NAS (because I already have the spinning disks for a NAS). 

 

Still spinning my wheels :~)

[Priaptor]

1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Totally!

 

 

I change my stuff around way too much, but I like to understand how it all works and find solutions for others while testing. Currently the QNAP is backing itself up to two locally attached USB drives and to iDrive cloud. 

 

I was thinking about a new RPi 5 based NAS, but I think they are really slow at disk access. it would drive me nuts when moving 25GB of immersive audio to/from it. 

 

This morning I was thinking about attaching my USB drives to a Windows PC I have here, and to keep using them for backup. Then adding an SSD for immersive content to my laptop that I use for immersive playback, and an SSD to the Windows machine for stereo content. By the time I configure a good enclosure and good SSD, the price is close to the cost of a new NAS (because I already have the spinning disks for a NAS). 

 

Still spinning my wheels :~)

Posted on this in the past.

 

TBS-h574TX-i5-16G

TBS-h574TX | Make your creativity bloom with the lightning-fast Thunderbolt™ 4 All-Flash NASbook | QNAP (US)

 

I have this running for months with 5 Micron 7.68 TB E1.S drives.  

 

So far I am very happy with it.  Very fast, small and relatively silent and will run Roon and Audirvana. 

[R1200CL]

20 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

QNAP wants $500 to fix it.

Sure they not ship you a new one ?

Isn’t $500 in any case the cheapest option ?
 

When mine died, I got upgrade to a newer version for around half price a new one. 
 

With a new Qnap, you just insert the old disks (in same slots), and you’re up and running in no time. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

13 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

Sure they not ship you a new one ?

Isn’t $500 in any case the cheapest option ?
 

When mine died, I got upgrade to a newer version for around half price a new one. 
 

With a new Qnap, you just insert the old disks (in same slots), and you’re up and running in no time. 

I just rechecked my support ticket, and it's $750 they want. My mistake. 

 

Either way, this is the cheapest option. Certainly something I'm considering.

[jabbr]

On 4/26/2024 at 10:24 AM, The Computer Audiophile said:

Hi Guys, my QNAP TVS-872XT is dying a slow death, with errors that require me to send the unit in for an expensive repair. Rather than spend money to fix my current unit, I'm looking at new units or other ways to accomplish the same thing. The main companies I'm looking at are QNAP, Synology, and TrueNAS. However, I'd love to hear what others are doing for storage of 20 terabytes, with access to this from a variety of devices, redundancy, and the ability to backup to USB drives.

 

The ability to run Audirvana on QNAP has me really excited, but it isn't a showstopper for me if the NAS can't run Audirvana. 

 

I have an external SAS3 enclosure with 15 bays, something like this:  https://www.pc-pitstop.com/15bay-12g-sas-expander-enclosure 

A white box low powered Ubuntu server with 64Gb RAM and a 40Gbe Ethernet (Mellanox) card and an external SAS3 card.

 

I intermittently run diagnostics on the pools and drives and replace drives when needed

 

Depending on how much horsepower you put on the Ubuntu server you can run whatever you want. Just use plenty of RAM to keep ZFS happy

 

I back up to jottacloud personal

[DuckToller]

Just found this in my insta timeline ...

Perhaps of interest for you @The Computer Audiophile?

[AudioDoctor]

This weekend I will be tackling my project of getting Minimserver running in a docker container on TrueNAS Scale. The developer of Minimserver has offered to help if I need it.

 

If I am successful I will write up some instructions so others can do the same if they would like.