Best Streamer without a music server (no Roon etc)

[RDSChicago]

On 1/29/2021 at 7:58 AM, Kal Rubinson said:

And my experience suggests the opposite, especially since it requires additional functions in the source device.  Can you tell us what your conclusion is based on?

Kal or others, my listening is exclusively via Qobuz with a Lampizator Big 7 or Tubadour III SE DAC. No music files. No CD’s anymore. Since you’re saying USB is superior to SPDIF, am I better off continuing to stream through my MacBook Pro directly (or though an ifi Micro USB 3.0 with their Gemini USB cable) into the USB B input of the DAC vs. a music streamer such as Lumin or BlueSound via SPDIF? If so, this would be most convenient to me and avoid the necessity of purchasing a separate streamer. I’ve always been told to go the streamer route and would love to hear your recommendations. Thank you. 

[m5sime]

12 minutes ago, RDSChicago said:

Kal or others, my listening is exclusively via Qobuz with a Lampizator Big 7 or Tubadour III SE DAC. No music files. No CD’s anymore. Since you’re saying USB is superior to SPDIF, am I better off continuing to stream through my MacBook Pro directly (or though an ifi Micro USB 3.0 with their Gemini USB cable) into the USB B input of the DAC vs. a music streamer such as Lumin or BlueSound via SPDIF? If so, this would be most convenient to me and avoid the necessity of purchasing a separate streamer. I’ve always been told to go the streamer route and would love to hear your recommendations. Thank you. 

Hi - I believe there is broad consensus that a dedicated streamer will always outperform a PC or Mac connected directly. It also makes control simpler in my view as I don’t want or have my home computer in the living room. 

 

[Kal Rubinson]

1 hour ago, RDSChicago said:

Since you’re saying USB is superior to SPDIF, am I better off continuing to stream through my MacBook Pro directly (or though an ifi Micro USB 3.0 with their Gemini USB cable) into the USB B input of the DAC vs. a music streamer such as Lumin or BlueSound via SPDIF?

I prefer USB to S/PDIF for reasons stated, all other things being equal.  In your scenario, they are not and I cannot predict what you might expect.  I\

[Kal Rubinson]

50 minutes ago, m5sime said:

I believe there is broad consensus that a dedicated streamer will always outperform a PC or Mac connected directly.

Too general a statement, IMHO.

[botrytis]

1 hour ago, m5sime said:

Hi - I believe there is broad consensus that a dedicated streamer will always outperform a PC or Mac connected directly. It also makes control simpler in my view as I don’t want or have my home computer in the living room. 

 

Not true and dedicated streamers also do have to be watched for security issues. And some dedicated streamers are no longer updated when new versions come out. That is a huge issue. Streamers are basically dedicated PC's.

[m5sime]

42 minutes ago, Kal Rubinson said:

Too general a statement, IMHO.

Probably 😂 I don’t recall seeing a reviewer of a streamer comparing with their laptop and saying the laptop was better.. hence the general opinion that dedicating streaming to an optimised device is more widely reported to be best. Perhaps a specific DAC is very agnostic of the source, but again from what I have read over the years, many are affected by streamer quality (hence ever more high end streamers exist, people modify power supplies, endless devices are available to ‘improve’ usb audio. 

[Kal Rubinson]

48 minutes ago, m5sime said:

Probably 😂 I don’t recall seeing a reviewer of a streamer comparing with their laptop and saying the laptop was better.. hence the general opinion that dedicating streaming to an optimised device is more widely reported to be best.

Sure.  I have to admit that I have not found a proprietary streamer box (including program control) that I would prefer to using a dedicated PC but that's because none of them are capable of multichannel.  

51 minutes ago, m5sime said:

Perhaps a specific DAC is very agnostic of the source, but again from what I have read over the years, many are affected by streamer quality (hence ever more high end streamers exist, people modify power supplies, endless devices are available to ‘improve’ usb audio. 

Mebbe but i do not think that all of those efforts are realistically valid proof of it.

[BrownMagic]

On 11/21/2020 at 1:33 AM, Daren F said:

It also supports Tidal Connect, Spotify Connect and Qobuz Connect

Qobuz told me that they do not have anything called Qobuz Connect. The only way to use the native Qobuz app to stream is via Chromecast. Are you able to stream to Node2i via Qobuz app?? Please advise. That is the solution I am looking for and I can only do that now with a Primare NP5. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

2 minutes ago, BrownMagic said:

Qobuz told me that they do not have anything called Qobuz Connect.

The Qobuz Connect logo certainly makes it appear like there's something called Qobuz Connect. 

 

[BrownMagic]

13 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

The Qobuz Connect logo certainly makes it appear like there's something called Qobuz Connect. 

Yes. They did have something in the works but that’s no longer in play. They told me they will be removing it from their website. Quite a bummer. I hope Qobuz brings their own connect technology like Tidal and Spotify. 
 

 

[Daren F]

14 hours ago, BrownMagic said:

Qobuz told me that they do not have anything called Qobuz Connect. The only way to use the native Qobuz app to stream is via Chromecast. Are you able to stream to Node2i via Qobuz app?? Please advise. That is the solution I am looking for and I can only do that now with a Primare NP5. 

 

No, sorry my mistake. It would be nice if it did though.

[m5sime]

Update time: As some of you know I started this thread seeking a way of getting rid of Roon, Roon Core (Rock), Roon client and potentially also my Sonore MicroRendu. My goal was to have something as simple as Sonos ZP90 (cloud/app powered UX streamer). Your advice on here led me to look at options:

1. Auralic Aries G1 - great reviews for the App. Hardware looks good. On greater digging realising that Spotify is not embedded in the App (uses the connect path that Spotify seems to be pushing). That was an initial issue.. so I kept looking
2. Aurender - Strong positives from some of you.. Checked the pricing.. And er no.. Too expensive for my needs.
3. LUMIN - U1 Mini - seemed to be a nice price point (1700 quid or so), again app positive noises from you, they are active on the forums (Peter). Same setup as Auralic with the way Spotify works. I decided to ping the nice chaps at Audiobarn UK and got a paid loaner of a U1 Mini for test.

Conclusions - 

• Outclassed my Sonos ZP90 (no surprise there!)
• Stable operation. Minor crashes in the app.
• Using a cheapo USB cable and a broadcast grade v short AES/EBU XLR cable into my DAC I generally preferred the AES (confirming my assumption that AES sounds better into my DAC (Mytel Brooklyn)
• I then decided to try some HiFi USB cables - again a paid demo. AQ Carbon vs Chord Shawline vs Tellurium Q Black. I needed to concentrate when listening and when I tested using tracks with piano that differences were large! The TQ Black was the best overall by some margin (300 quid). The closest was then the AQ Carbon (feels much cheaper, bit stiff and connectors were a looser fit). The Chord didnt shine in my setup. 
• I did some more listening and preferred the USB vs AES now (using the TQ Black).. So that theory went..
• I then did some tests my bringing my Mutec MC3+USB into the loop.. USB into that and AES into my DAC.. - no real gain at least in the test system (which was a desktop setup vs my normal hifi setup - much easier for swapping cables and controlled listening). I will do more tests for the Mutec and see if this will bring enough to warrant being in the midst of my chain.
• The LUMIN U1 Mini - Nice solid device. Sound performance is excellent. Slight oddities:
  • On boot it says network error when in fact it is still booting-up and has a network connection (perhaps waiting for a DHCP lease). Could be masked for 20 secs to make a nicer boot sequence as the network issue isnt valid yet 
  • Didnt get tune-in to work.. Oddly asks for an account - pretty sure I can stream from tune in without an account.. 
  • Lovely feature of the Sonos on iOS - the standby screen/lock screen of the iPhone shows the track/artwork and a skip/pause button etc.. Nice feature to move a song on without unlocking the phone.. Requested consideration from Peter at LUMIN (but wasn't convinced). 
  • Committed the minor sin that many others have - connecting USB and AES/SPDIF from the U1 Mini at the same time (works OK, but had some odd issues with MQA lock up in AES mode).. I was A/B switching on my DAC to listen to the differences. Rightly told off by Peter that this is not supported as the USB mode has different timing for the data exchange (pull) vs the AES/SPDIF mode.. 
  • USB ports - generic label of 1 & 2 - no indication of in or out.. whether storage or DAC. Guess entirely flexible.. Did wonder if there was a better port for 'streaming to the DAC' and one for USB storage..
  • Testing was all TIDAL FLAC and Master MQA streaming (no local music)
  • Tested the Spotify Connect option - stable and quick (just select the LUMIN device as a speaker)
• Roon Core, Rendu, Linear PSU setup - all now spare. Not tested sound quality of the Rendu vs Lumin (and not interested to)
• LUMIN U1 Mini is a keeper - getting it in Black (demo model was brushed Aluminium)

Thanks for all your help with this thread and advice. I was originally thinking to get the Bluesound Node 2i.. Jack at Audiobarn didn't suggest it was an upgrade for me (not much better an experience than the Sonos (ease of use) and not enough of an upgrade in SQ.. Now that I am using USB into my DAC (I had not planned to end up there) I am glad I went with the LUMIN.. 

 

Cheers

 

Simon

 

 

[RDSChicago]

I’m having trouble getting tune-in on my X1 to work as well. Peter, can you advise? Thanks. 

[m5sime]

4 minutes ago, RDSChicago said:

I’m having trouble getting tune-in on my X1 to work as well. Peter, can you advise? Thanks. 

The app seems to ask for a username but then does not provide a password box. I went and registered with TuneIn and hence was baffled that the App does not ask for the two fields.

[m5sime]

I forgot to add that the UI Mini can upsample audio feeds.. I only tried 44.1 KHz standard PCM from TIDAL (FLAC). It allows for 2x, 3x etc and also conversion to DSD.. When streaming into the Mytek DAC using USB (but again on amplified desktop hifi speakers) I could not hear any benefit. In fact in general, I thought the original sounded a teeny bit better. My DAC is pretty good by most standards, so expect this may have been less of an advantage to that DAC. I could not hear anything re DSD vs PCM either. Leaving that setting off.. Naturally the upper clock rates and DSD need the USB connection vs AES/SPDIF.

[RDSChicago]

11 minutes ago, m5sime said:

The app seems to ask for a username but then does not provide a password box. I went and registered with TuneIn and hence was baffled that the App does not ask for the two fields.

I had the same issue. Great review BTW. I am feeding the X1 into a Lampizator DAC but am really enjoying the X1 as a standalone DAC as well. Almost every bit as dynamic and weighty as the Lampi and perhaps more detailed. 

[wklie]

11 hours ago, RDSChicago said:

I’m having trouble getting tune-in on my X1 to work as well. Peter, can you advise?

 

You have to have a (free) TuneIn account.  Please use a web browser or other means to add radio stations to TuneIn favorites.

 

In Lumin app, enter your TuneIn account name or e-mail.  Lumin can then retrieve your favorite TuneIn channels.

[wklie]

11 hours ago, m5sime said:

• Using a cheapo USB cable and a broadcast grade v short AES/EBU XLR cable into my DAC I generally preferred the AES (confirming my assumption that AES sounds better into my DAC (Mytel Brooklyn)
•  
  • On boot it says network error when in fact it is still booting-up and has a network connection (perhaps waiting for a DHCP lease). Could be masked for 20 secs to make a nicer boot sequence as the network issue isnt valid yet 

 

1. If you're going to try AES or SPDIF, please use a cable no shorter than 1.5m

 

2. The network error is a DHCP timeout falsealarm.  In the next firmware we'll further increase it.  Apparently some network setups yield slower DHCP reply than our office environment.

[m5sime]

12 hours ago, wklie said:

 

You have to have a (free) TuneIn account.  Please use a web browser or other means to add radio stations to TuneIn favorites.

 

In Lumin app, enter your TuneIn account name or e-mail.  Lumin can then retrieve your favorite TuneIn channels.

Confirmed working.. it is a bit confusing re the 'login' as there are no password fields.. Unless I had a radio station set to 'favourite' in the web app online, then LUMIN didn't do anything. Once I had a channel added, then it appeared with just the login username (email). TuneIn obviously allows favourites to be pulled without any authentication (which seems odd)..

[m5sime]

12 hours ago, wklie said:

 

1. If you're going to try AES or SPDIF, please use a cable no shorter than 1.5m

 

2. The network error is a DHCP timeout falsealarm.  In the next firmware we'll further increase it.  Apparently some network setups yield slower DHCP reply than our office environment.

 

Re 2. - Thank you! DHCP in a home setup can take a small amount of time..

Re 1. - mine is v short (12cm of cable).. Deliberately to remove cable effects.. What are the reasons for the 1.5M? I have read this somewhere else re SPDIF before. 

[Mark Dirac]

12 hours ago, wklie said:

 

1. If you're going to try AES or SPDIF, please use a cable no shorter than 1.5m

No shorter? Why is that please?

[The Computer Audiophile]

4 minutes ago, Mark Dirac said:

No shorter? Why is that please?

This has been recommended to me by some of the best engineers in HiFi as well. 

[m5sime]

17 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

This has been recommended to me by some of the best engineers in HiFi as well. 

Any details why? I read something around wavelengths of SPDIF signals. I assume if someone were designing a product for an internal linkage of SPDIF (and why would they), they would have low tx power for a v short distance. I wonder if some products prefer some attenuation? (not that 1.5M of decent spec 110 ohm AES cable has much loss).. 

[m5sime]

Did some quick searches and as often the case in HiFi, uncovered the Mariana Trench in discussions.. Put simply - the concept seems to be all about impedance mismatch and cable reflections and 1.5M being a supposed ideal in balance of reflection attenuation vs pickup of additional noise.. Interesting that so few promote a 1.5m cable as a sellable unit.. Some explanation here. https://www.lessloss.com/lessloss-digital-cable-p-195.html

[wklie]

1 hour ago, Mark Dirac said:

No shorter? Why is that please?

 

https://positive-feedback.com/Issue14/spdif.htm