So I've had an EtherRegen in rack for 2 weeks...

[plissken]

1 hour ago, jabbr said:

Though consider @plissken’s example of plucking the wire: at 10G you could essentially transmit the entire song during the silence

 

If you could obtain actual wire speed you could transfer entire albums during silence between tracks 🙂

[mansr]

3 minutes ago, plissken said:

If you could obtain actual wire speed you could transfer entire albums during silence between tracks 🙂

Make it fast enough, and you can transfer an entire album in the interval between two samples.

[plissken]

2 minutes ago, mansr said:

Make it fast enough, and you can transfer an entire album in the interval between two samples.

I don't know of anything that fast in the consumer commercial space. But if we are talking in the realm of what I've seen spent in the audiophile space I could created a setup that would saturate 10GBe.

[mansr]

2 minutes ago, plissken said:

I don't know of anything that fast in the consumer commercial space.

I don't know of anything that fast anywhere. Transferring one hour's worth of music at CD quality in less than one sample interval would require a bandwidth of more than 200 Tbps.

[plissken]

4 minutes ago, mansr said:

I don't know of anything that fast anywhere. Transferring one hour's worth of music at CD quality in less than one sample interval would require a bandwidth of more than 200 Tbps.

https://www.submarinenetworks.com/en/systems/trans-atlantic/marea/marea-cable-system-reaches-200-tbps-of-capacity

[mansr]

4 minutes ago, plissken said:

https://www.submarinenetworks.com/en/systems/trans-atlantic/marea/marea-cable-system-reaches-200-tbps-of-capacity

Close.

[jabbr]

From a practical point of view, commodity hardware can transmit an entire CD in <1sec. Perhaps in the time between a 💿 Is selected and starts playing. If it matters.

[plissken]

On 2/15/2020 at 11:09 AM, Jud said:

 

Sure. The question is always going to be whether the jitter is at a level that causes concern, whether by virtue of a certain amount of measured distortion or audible noise.

 

Please listen to these two files and tell me what you hear. Note the quality isn't the best because they were made simply by holding an iPhone in front of speakers more than 3 years ago.

 

1A.m4a 3.31 MB · 11 downloads A1.m4a 3.26 MB · 9 downloads

 

1 track is louder (either higher gain, closer mic source, or compression) and for lack of a better term had some ringing and sibilant like quality to it.

 

But both sounded pretty bad.

[Jud]

11 hours ago, Confused said:

Out of curiosity, I had a listen to these two this morning.  Lets just say one sounded quite good considering it was recorded with an iPhone, the other did not.  The bad one sounded a bit like a reel to reel tape recorder that had seen better days and is in need of a service, lots of wow and flutter and electrical issues.  I assume something else was in play though?

 

23 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

1 track is louder (either higher gain, closer mic source, or compression) and for lack of a better term had some ringing and sibilant like quality to it.

 

But both sounded pretty bad.

 

Interesting. @Confused's description, for what it's worth, is much, much closer to the way it sounded in the room.

 

One file (the worse one) was recorded when there was a noise loop in the system; the other of the same track with a small configuration change that stopped the noise loop. Without the noise loop, the track sounded very good indeed in the room; with it, it sounded terrible, obviously distorted. @Confused's description of sounding like wow and flutter with "electrical issues" (static-sounding noises) is apt.

 

The noise loop involved the Ethernet connection in the system between router and NIC. The reason I know this is because inserting a Baaske Ethernet isolation transformer in that connection reduced the noise/distortion significantly, though it didn't eliminate it altogether.

 

So we know from this that the Ethernet connection between router (or switch) and NIC is capable of being involved in noise loops in the system, perhaps significant enough to be very audible, as this one was, or perhaps not plainly audible, but enough to mask low-level musical detail (or enough to affect the clock in the DAC?).

 

Obviously UpTone can't be held to my (lack of) understanding of how the ER is supposed to operate regarding jitter, but my impression was that it wasn't surmised jitter was literally jumping clock domains; rather, it had to do with the electrical effect of clock edges being transmitted through the system. Whether this is correct or, even if correct, is significant enough to make an audible difference is something I don't know, and which at the moment at least has not been demonstrated by measurement.

 

Perhaps the ER might simply potentially reduce noise being transmitted via Ethernet (as I and anyone who listens to these files will realize it can be), and have no particular effect on jitter. Perhaps there are other ways to do this, and perhaps at least some of them might be cheaper. I don't know; it's just speculation on my part, other than knowing from having heard it myself and recorded it that a significant amount of noise can be transmitted through a system via Ethernet. But it seems to me this fact means a sonic improvement in an audio system by means of the ER is at least possible.

[plissken]

30 minutes ago, Jud said:

The noise loop involved the Ethernet connection in the system between router and NIC. The reason I know this is because inserting a Baaske Ethernet isolation transformer in that connection reduced the noise/distortion significantly, though it didn't eliminate it altogether.

 

So we know from this that the Ethernet connection between router (or switch) and NIC is capable of being involved in noise loops in the system, perhaps significant enough to be very audible, as this one was, or perhaps not plainly audible, but enough to mask low-level musical detail (or enough to affect the clock in the DAC?).

 

I understand what you are saying but I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. As I wasn't there I have only your word to go on.

 

Are you saying you think an audiophile switch would have solved this? Do you know the type of cabling that was in use? Was the person that set up the system competent? Was any of the network equipment modified as Audiophile owners are want to do?

 

If you think an audiophile switch would solve this how do you know another off the shelf switch wouldn't? What's the possibility of faulty hardware?

 

I know what wow and flutter sound like. What I heard was more ringing and sibilant sound along with a higher noise floor. I did nothing but setup Audio Edit studios for 7 years. I would suggest direct connecting output from the preamp to an ADC with Heaphone Monitor loop. 

 

I'm up for a get together, and in part explore this.

 

What I do know is I have the magical ability to take consumer networking hardware and make it sound indistinguishable from 'solutions' costing multitudes more. 

 

I just spent $214 and went with optical isolation that is 3000% faster.

 

[plissken]

18 minutes ago, Jud said:

The noise loop involved the Ethernet connection in the system between router and NIC. The reason I know this is because inserting a Baaske Ethernet isolation transformer in that connection reduced the noise/distortion significantly, though it didn't eliminate it altogether.

 

I would be willing to bet you that I could have corrected or sourced the problem with out a bandaid that the Basske isolation represents.

[Jud]

1 minute ago, plissken said:

 

I understand what you are saying but I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. As I wasn't there I have only your word to go on.

 

Are you saying you think an audiophile switch would have solved this?

 

Don't know. I just know that Ethernet connections are capable of being involved in noise loops, and at least some types of noise (for example, leakage current) are what the ER purports to reduce. It's also interesting that another common solution for leakage current, an Ethernet isolation transformer, did reduce the noise/distortion but did not eliminate it.

 

1 minute ago, plissken said:

 

Do you know the type of cabling that was in use?

 

Absolute stock Ethernet cable. (I don't think I had the Blue Jeans cable in the system yet.)

 

1 minute ago, plissken said:

Was the person that set up the system competent?

 

Only as competent as me.  I'm no genius, but I usually do OK.

 

1 minute ago, plissken said:

Was any of the network equipment modified as Audiophile owners are want to do?

 

No.

 

1 minute ago, plissken said:

 

If you think an audiophile switch would solve this how do you know another off the shelf switch wouldn't?

 

As I said, I don't know if the ER would have eliminated the noise loop, just that at least some of what it purports to do (reduce or eliminate leakage current) appeared to help matters when implemented by way of the Baaske Ethernet isolation transformer. My off-the-shelf router didn't solve the problem.

 

1 minute ago, plissken said:

What's the possibility of faulty hardware?

 

While I can't say there was no faulty hardware anywhere in the system, I can tell you that what totally resolved the problem was running my MacBook Pro from battery rather than its SMPS. (Running my DAC and a CuBox that was also in the system from battery did not help.)

 

1 minute ago, plissken said:

I know what wow and flutter sound like. What I heard was more ringing and sibilant sound along with a higher noise floor. I did nothing but setup Audio Edit studios for 7 years. I would suggest direct connecting output from the preamp to an ADC with Heaphone Monitor loop.

 

Higher noise floor for sure. However, in the room it definitely sounded like flutter - I dubbed it the "warble."

 

1 minute ago, plissken said:

I'm up for a get together, and in part explore this.

 

You're more than welcome any time, my friend. However, I no longer have some of the components involved in this, and my system configuration has changed, so we can't test causes and solutions to this particular problem. Also, I now live in the Desert Southwest. That of course means this is a very nice place to visit, but it might be some distance for you.

[plissken]

31 minutes ago, Jud said:

it had to do with the electrical effect of clock edges being transmitted through the system

 

And when those clock edges were only in use for 5 seconds transferring a 50MB PCM 16/44.1 file?

 

Not sure what "clock edges being transmitted through the system" even means.

[jabbr]

31 minutes ago, Jud said:

Perhaps the ER might simply potentially reduce noise being transmitted via Ethernet (as I and anyone who listens to these files will realize it can be), and have no particular effect on jitter. Perhaps there are other ways to do this, and perhaps at least some of them might be cheaper. I don't know; it's just speculation on my part, other than knowing from having heard it myself and recorded it that a significant amount of noise can be transmitted through a system via Ethernet.

There needs no hand waving to say that all sorts of equipment— not only audio— can result in “ground loops” or more generally common mode noise.

[plissken]

Just now, Jud said:

Don't know. I just know that Ethernet connections are capable of being involved in noise loops, and at least some types of noise (for example, leakage current) are what the ER purports to reduce. It's also interesting that another common solution for leakage current, an Ethernet isolation transformer, did reduce the noise/distortion but did not eliminate it.

 

I think f'd up networking is a possibility. It could even be a wiring at the wall jack problem.

 

What I do know is that you were at an event with a compromised system and not a single one of you were capable enough to resolve it without resorting to bandaids.

So that's my take on it.

[Jud]

Just now, jabbr said:

There needs no hand waving to say that all sorts of equipment— not only audio— can result in “ground loops” or more generally common mode noise.

 

Yep. When designing the inside of a component you might run a circuit simulator to eliminate problems in the layout and interconnections, because the combinations and permutations of even a relatively small number of components and interconnections can get complicated pretty quickly. But we don't run simulators to see what sorts of noise loops might exist with the multiple components and interconnections in our audio systems.

[plissken]

5 minutes ago, Jud said:

Higher noise floor for sure. However, in the room it definitely sounded like flutter - I dubbed it the "warble."

 

If I have vinyl spinning and I place my finger on the transport to alter it's speed I hear wow and flutter. It's pitch shifting. What I heard was ringing, distortion, higher noise floor.

[Jud]

1 minute ago, plissken said:

 

I think f'd up networking is a possibility. It could even be a wiring at the wall jack problem.

 

What I do know is that you were at an event with a compromised system and not a single one of you were capable enough to resolve it without resorting to bandaids.

So that's my take on it.

 

It was just me at home.  Of course I resolved it, but because it was unusual I took the trouble to record it.

 

[Jud]

1 minute ago, plissken said:

 

If I have vinyl spinning and I place my finger on the transport to alter it's speed I hear wow and flutter. It's pitch shifting. What I heard was ringing, distortion, higher noise floor.

 

That's fine. Everyone who wants to can listen and decide for themselves what it sounds like to them. But we're agreed there was plainly audible noise and distortion.

[jabbr]

9 minutes ago, Jud said:

But we don't run simulators to see what sorts of noise loops might exist with the multiple components and interconnections in our audio systems.

No, we use different cables with different types of shielding to modulate the common mode noise to our liking!

[Jud]

32 minutes ago, plissken said:

I just spent $214 and went with optical isolation that is 3000% faster.

 

I see you edited your response.

 

What's interesting is that I resolved the noise loop not on the networking side, which remained the same, but by simplifying the configuration on the power side of the system.

 

Even with optical Ethernet, you're still plugging stuff in. In that regard, I note the ER comes with an inexpensive power supply with a ground shunt for leakage current.

[Ralf11]

you'd need pretty crummy transformers/setup to get hearable noise via an optical PS

[jabbr]

6 minutes ago, Jud said:

What's interesting is that I resolved the noise loop not on the networking side, which remained the same, but by simplifying the configuration on the power side of the system.

Right so the Ethernet switch could be a huge red herring. Any cheap SMPS could infect your system. 
 

My isolation transformer blocks that ... and only fiber in for data.

 

That said, it’s great that manuf are paying attention to these issues.

[Jud]

Just now, jabbr said:

Right so the Ethernet switch could be a huge red herring. Any cheap SMPS could infect your system.

 

My isolation transformer blocks that ... and only fiber in.

 

That said, it’s great that manuf are paying attention to these issues.

 

Yes, I have no way of knowing if the ER would have resolved this specific problem, only that Ethernet can be involved in carrying noise loops, and certainly that the power to our equipment can be involved in that as well. (I also have my system on an isolation transformer, a Topaz unit - maybe something similar to the one you use?)

 

I've got my home wired with fiber, but haven't gone ahead and connected it yet - still using the copper system. After I retire and have time to play around with things and my separate work network is out of the way, I might want to do something about that.

[plissken]

1 hour ago, Jud said:

 

I see you edited your response.

 

What's interesting is that I resolved the noise loop not on the networking side, which remained the same, but by simplifying the configuration on the power side of the system.

 

Even with optical Ethernet, you're still plugging stuff in. In that regard, I note the ER comes with an inexpensive power supply with a ground shunt for leakage current.

 

T.I.'s paper on radiated emissions of 10/100 Ethernet PHY speaks plainly to the Achilles heel of single ended power supplies on network gear.