HOLO Audio MAY DAC

[Account Closed]

1 hour ago, bobflood said:

Could be fine. I might be confusing it with the two prior firmwares before the new 2.1 module. I have a Spring 2 KTE and I now use I2s so I have not changed the USB module. Tim, if you are still monitoring this thread could you please weigh in. Thanks 

I apologize! I was thinking of the old dual firmware situation (30.14 and 30.12) from the 2.0 USB module. The new 2.1 module does come with the 3144 fixed volume firmware installed at the factory. This is the correct one for most all situations and should support DSD 1024 and PCM 1536. It still might be a stretch to get DSD 1024 (depending on the modulator) but PCM 1536 should be no problem at all. 

 

[Schafheide]

Re Jussi's recommendations regarding best settings for Holo Audio DAC's.

I am an extremely happy owner of a May KTE.

I have accepted that 20 bits is best for this DAC (although I cannot hear the difference between 20 & 24 bits).

As I will always listen to Jussi's opinion, can someone provide a link to where Jussi said that DSD256 is the optimum setting for my DAC?

I have tried DSD256 + EC modulator but, at least for the time being, I have settled on DSD512 with the "best" non-EC modulator.

I would have tried DSD1024 except that neither my Mac Mini M1 or my NAA or my DDS or my May will work with this resolution.

[Quadman]

14 minutes ago, Schafheide said:

Jussi said that DSD256 is the optimum setting for my DAC?

Jusi has said from time to time that 256 measures best.  It would be  way back in probably the hqp thread, or maybe this one.  I don't remember him showing graphs of 256 vs 512 vs 1024.  My guess the difference is way up in frequency and/or possibly near the Nyquist frequency.  In my room 1024 is clearly superior.

 

I'm like you I also preferred 512 non ec to 256 ec.  And obviously prefer 1024 to 512ec.  1024 sounds so real in my room it is physically addicting.  I never heard digital that good before.  I tried briefly 256ec again today, it sounded closed in almost muffled, with slow pace and drive.  Way less transparent.  Muddy.

[barrows]

5 minutes ago, Quadman said:

I don't remember him showing graphs of 256 vs 512 vs 1024.  My guess the difference is way up in frequency and/or possibly near the Nyquist frequency.  In my room 1024 is clearly superior.

Finding the relevant posts would be difficult.  But Jussi has shown measurements with Holo DACs showing higher levels of distortion with DSD rates above 256, not just ultra high frequency noise.  Of course Quadman prefers a tube SET amp, so it is possible he likes the sound of some distortion-nothing wrong with that...

As far as ultra high frequency noise goes, it is appears clear that Jussi believes ultrasonic noise is a problem-I am not entirely sure why, except that I do know that some (not all) amplifiers will produce audible artifacts if presented with enough ultrasonic noise at their inputs, so it is to be considered "good practice" to reduce the levels of ultrasonic noise in the output of the DAC.  Most amplifiers have some ultra high frequency filtering at their inputs, but this filtering is often not effective enough to keep out all ultrasonic hash.

[Jud]

1 hour ago, barrows said:

it appears clear that Jussi believes ultrasonic noise is a problem-I am not entirely sure why

As you know there’s some distortion created in the audible region by this (intermodulation, imaging), though whether it’s enough to be audible is certainly open to question.

[barrows]

4 minutes ago, Jud said:

As you know there’s some distortion created in the audible region by this (intermodulation, imaging), though whether it’s enough to be audible is certainly open to question.

I have experienced some clearly audible problems caused by DACs with ultrasonic noise with some class D amplifiers, these issues were not subtle but were solved by better DAC output filtering (stronger analog section filter, or transformer coupling, as transformers act as filters through their limited bandwidth).  Then of course there are the possible, more subtle, problems which you note.  In any case, it is considered good engineering practice to have as little as possible noise at the output of a DAC, ultrasonic/RF or not.  As I prefer DSD, the ultrasonic noise issue can be a problem, and Jussi's oversampling methods, and filters in HQPlayer can be very helpful in avoiding this.

It is especially a problem with some class D amplifiers, but not just class D.  I am pretty sure this is one of the main reasons Jeff Rowland Designs prefers to transformer couple their amplifier inputs.  While transformers will always color the sound a little, the better transformers these days are very very good, and to my ears do not seem to negatively affect performance or transparency audibly.  The Linn DACs, which to my ears are among the very best, have transformer coupled outputs.  I wish I understood more about transformers!

[musicman1]

Thanks for everyone's help in getting me setup. I wanted to provide some updates. I have purchased HQplayer so no more trial copy. Also, I have checked the boxes at the bottom of the settings box that I was told to check. I can now stream DSD512X using the Gauss Long settings (Haven't tried others yet) and its now working perfectly. I also tried to use DSD1024X and it does lock fine and shows that in the DAC display. I am getting music but it skips every few seconds so I assume my computer is running out of steam. If I were to purchase the Intel i9 12900K and drop it in my motherboards socket would this be enough extra power to be able to use DSD1024X without issues? Also for what its worth I am very computer literate and have been building PC's for decades and built this one. I know this motherboard will take the newer i9 processors although I may need to do a flash update.

 

I know there is a debate and difference of opinion on the benefits of using DSD1024X and I appreciate everyone's opinions on this. I personally would have no problem spending another $600 to upgrade my CPU just to try it for myself. Even if it doesn't sound better I'll gain a faster computer. I'm just not sure if the extra 4 cores would be enough. Also one downside for me in using DSD upsampling is that when using DSD on my DAC it cuts my line out voltage in half and I lose some volume. This holds true with ALL DAC's in general. The line out voltage for DSD is half of what PCM is. My tube amp doesn't have much extra headroom so I'm having to drive it harder. My amp only has balanced inputs. Is there a possible way to boost my volume some how with Roon or HQplayer? I changed my max volume to -4.0 on HQplayer as some have suggested. This isn't a deal breaker for me as most music is loud enough and I can change to ultralinear instead of Triode on my amp to get a few extra watts if needed. Thank you for your help.

 

[StreamFidelity]

1 hour ago, musicman1 said:

If I were to purchase the Intel i9 12900K and drop it in my motherboards socket would this be enough extra power to be able to use DSD1024X without issues?

Yes 👍

 

[Schafheide]

On 6/5/2022 at 6:44 AM, musicman1 said:

 

So by selecting that mode it just means it can be oversampled but it is completely driven by the source? I'm looking at some streamers that allow oversampling so would it need to be setup at the source? I don't use HQPlayer and have no interest in Roon.   

This is, indeed,  a good news story and reinforces the usefulness of this forum.

Some very eloquent and knowledgeable members have successfully managed to convert a "non-believer" into a true appreciator of HQPlayer.  Jussi would be pleased!

This is why I constantly follow the forum.

[Quadman]

9 hours ago, musicman1 said:

If I were to purchase the Intel i9 12900K and drop it in my motherboards socket would this be enough extra power to be able to use DSD1024X without issues?

@barrows  I get the same results with my Pass XA amplifier as well. (1024 sounding way better than 256)

 

Here's the capabilities of the server I just built my buddy, 12900K based and NO gpu, you with a 3080 gpu and with cuda offload checked can do much more.  I am surprised with a 3080 the 12700K can't do guass at 1024. So yes the 12900K is perfect, just make sure you have a 360AIO or 280AIO as cooler.  I cut and pasted and the column headers didn't line up but from L to R starting source material 44.1, 88.2, 176.4 then 48, 96, 192  In the HQP thread @El Guapo has posted similar charts (much prettier) with a 12900K and 3080 GPU, he can even play some 1024 w EC modulators.

 

Yes DSD is 6db lower output voltage (1/2) and your raal amp is not very sensitive so you have to push the volume.  Roon or HQP offers no gain options unfortunately.  A preamp would though.  Holo makes a very nice one.

 

DSD1024 RESULTS			5/10/2022				Win 11 pro
Intel 12900K + 32GB DDR5/5600					HQP Desktop-		4.18.1
Modulator	DSD1024 from 44.1 rates				DSD1024 from 48K rates
ASDM7 512 fs+	44.1	88.2	176.4		48	96	192
Poly-sinc*	O	O	O		O	O	O
Poly-sinc-short-*	O	O	O		O	O	O
Poly-sinc-long-*	O	O	O		O	O	O
poly-sinc-long-ip	N	N	N		N	N	N
polysinc-hb	O	O	O		O	O	O
poly-sinc-ext	O	O	O		O	O	O
poly-sinc-ext2	O	O	O		O	O	O
poly-sinc-ext3	O	O	OD		O	O	OD
poly-sinc-mqa/mp3*	O	O	O		O	O	O
poly-sinc-xtr-*	N	N	N		N	N	N
poly-sinc-xtr-short-*	O	O	O		O	O	O
poly-sinc-*-2s	O	O	O		O	O	O
Poly-sinc-short-*-	O	O	O		O	O	O
Poly-sinc-long-*-	O	O	O		O	O	O
poly-sinc-long-ip-2s	O	O	O		O	O	O
polysinc-hb-2s	O	O	O		O	O	O
poly-sinc-xtr-*-2s	O	O	O		O	O	O
poly-sinc-xtr-short-*-2s	O	O	O		O	O	O
poly-sinc-gauss-short	O	O	O		O	O	O
poly-sinc-gauss	O	O	O		O	O	O
poly-sinc-gauss-long	O	O	O		O	O	O
poly-sinc-gauss-XL	O	O	O		O	O	O
poly-sinc-gauss-XLA	O	O	O		O	O	O
poly-sinc-gauss-hires-LP	O	O	O		O	O	O
poly-sinc-gauss-hires-IP	O	O	O		O	O	O
poly-sinc-gauss-hires-MP	O	O	O		O	O	O
minringFIR-*	O	O	O		O	O	O
Closed-form	O	O	O		O	O	O
closed-form-fast	O	O	O		O	O	O
closed-form-16M	O	O	O		O	O	O
Sinc S	O	O	O		O	O	O
Sinc-M	O	O	O		O	O	O
Sinc-Mx	N	N	N		N	N	N
sinc-L	N	N	N		N	N	N
Sinc-Ls	N	N	N		N	N	N
Sinc-Lm	N	N	N		N	N	N
sinc-Li	N	N	N		N	N	N
					O= YES
MultiCore DSP- Grayed					N= NO
Adaptive output- Checked					OD= Ocassional dropouts
48K- Checked		Cuda Offload- Blank

 

[musicman1]

Is the Holo Audio May sensitive to different USB cables when connected to a computer?  I have the KTE version, so I have the better enhanced module. I know this is supposed to be an excellent USB implementation and I was wondering if it's worth it to spend extra money on a good quality USB cable? On a very resolving system would a $100 cable be adequate or would gains be possible on say a good quality $700-$800 cable. I know this is VERY subjective and system dependent, but I was hoping to hear opinions from others who actually own the May DAC and stream from their computers and who have actually made the comparisons between different USB cables. 

[87mpi]

24 minutes ago, musicman1 said:

Is the Holo Audio May sensitive to different USB cables when connected to a computer? 

Yes, it is. 

I advice you Sablon USB Evo 

[musicman1]

26 minutes ago, 87mpi said:

Yes, it is. 

I advice you Sablon USB Evo 

 

Have you made comparisons with other cables on this DAC?

 

[sworksone]

I’ve found the usb implementation on the May KTE greatly reduces the impact of usb cables to the point that I sold my Innuos PhoenixUSB and Sablon 2020.  I’m now using a lower priced silver cable (obsolete Ridge street audio Poiema v3) and am very happy with the results. 

[MichaelHiFi]

I've tried a number of USB cables and the ones that stood out were the Supra excalibur and the Network Acoustics Muon. The Muon won my heart and killed my checking account. The Muon also changed how I setup my digital streaming system. I now go from computer motherboard USB out to May KTE USB in (Muon cable) using NOS mode.

 

Formally it was DSD256, HQPlayer, Ultrarendu, etherregen...

 

Of course there are so many variables. I need to put the Supra USB cable up for sale. I found it pretty close to the Muon ABing but I kept on removing the Supra for the Muon as it played so well in NOS. I have not heard most of the other popular USB Cables. 

 

Good luck.

[lpost]

On 6/12/2022 at 11:38 AM, musicman1 said:

Is the Holo Audio May sensitive to different USB cables when connected to a computer?  I have the KTE version, so I have the better enhanced module. I know this is supposed to be an excellent USB implementation and I was wondering if it's worth it to spend extra money on a good quality USB cable? On a very resolving system would a $100 cable be adequate or would gains be possible on say a good quality $700-$800 cable. I know this is VERY subjective and system dependent, but I was hoping to hear opinions from others who actually own the May DAC and stream from their computers and who have actually made the comparisons between different USB cables. 

FWIW, here's my limited USB cable experience. I've had the May for 15 months. I tried my best with a few USB cables and was unable to hear any difference however I use a very low power computer running Jussi's NAA image fed by optical Ethernet and then USB to feed the May. I had the top of the line Intona cable and listened to it for a couple months, then swapped to the stock included USB cable that came with the May. I sold the Intona and haven't fussed with changing much of anything for over a year now. 

 

I'm just super happy with system and spend way too much time listening and enjoying the music!

 

 

[John Hughes]

Kitsune's own Premium USB cable is the best fit for the May that I have found. 

[1laraz]

On 6/12/2022 at 10:48 PM, sworksone said:

I’ve found the usb implementation on the May KTE greatly reduces the impact of usb cables to the point that I sold my Innuos PhoenixUSB and Sablon 2020.  I’m now using a lower priced silver cable (obsolete Ridge street audio Poiema v3) and am very happy with the results. 

What do you use as a source? I am using gaming PC and found that USB reclockers improve the sound of May KTE. I tried both PhoenixUSB and ifi micro iUSB3.0

[sworksone]

1 hour ago, 1laraz said:

What do you use as a source? I am using gaming PC and found that USB reclockers improve the sound of May KTE. I tried both PhoenixUSB and ifi micro iUSB3.0

I’m using an Innuos Zenith Mk3 and use the native Sense app as I prefer the SQ over Roon by quite a bit (like most from what I’ve read).  I’ve been playing around a bit lately with HQPlayer desktop on an Apple M1 Mac Mini and am somewhat kicking myself that I sold the PhoenixUSB as I’d love to be able to try it with that set-up.  Using the Phoenix between the Zenith and the May I didn’t find any real benefit and I have a relatively revealing system.  With a Terminator DAC previously there was a subtle but obvious improvement.  Just my experience - maybe different for others.   

[MichaelHiFi]

I’ve been experimenting with many avenues of feeding the May KTE. As I had mentioned, the NA Muon has been my USB go to cable. 
 

Then I’d finally received the Pro-next RS-T transport. At, first listen it sounded dreadful, even through the May. But it matured and challenged my digital streaming system. So, removing HQP, ultrarendu, etherregen, lps’s Roon, network switches, cables, and pc’s, I spin shiny discs - again. The transport does not have USB out and It did not have a usable I2S output (bummer as I was counting on using Mays I2S input). It does have AES but I still don’t have a AES spec’s cable. It has optical and coax outpost as well. I’m using mostly a very good balanced cable 75ohm I believe which is not the correct cable but, sounds great anyway. I’m hopeful to have a proper cable in a few days. 
 

There are obvious differences between all these implementations. I can’t declare a clear winner on my system because of the incredible amount of variables, especially with regards to HQP filters and all the network junk in between. My digital streaming system now bypasses NA and goes direct to computer. So HQP, Roon using Holo May driver. And it sounds amazing to us.
 

I’m sure I spend to much time tweaking my system. Different platforms, footers, cables, and vibration techniques. I rationalize all this time spent claiming it’s a hobby. In general though, we often seem to escalate the beauty of the music. 
 

I would love to hear many of this forum members systems just to hear what you were able to extract from your May DAC. 
 

Happy Listening 

[matthias]

8 hours ago, MichaelHiFi said:

I’ve been experimenting with many avenues of feeding the May KTE. As I had mentioned, the NA Muon has been my USB go to cable. 
 

Then I’d finally received the Pro-next RS-T transport. At, first listen it sounded dreadful, even through the May. But it matured and challenged my digital streaming system. So, removing HQP, ultrarendu, etherregen, lps’s Roon, network switches, cables, and pc’s, I spin shiny discs - again. The transport does not have USB out and It did not have a usable I2S output (bummer as I was counting on using Mays I2S input). It does have AES but I still don’t have a AES spec’s cable. It has optical and coax outpost as well. I’m using mostly a very good balanced cable 75ohm I believe which is not the correct cable but, sounds great anyway. I’m hopeful to have a proper cable in a few days. 
 

There are obvious differences between all these implementations. I can’t declare a clear winner on my system because of the incredible amount of variables, especially with regards to HQP filters and all the network junk in between. My digital streaming system now bypasses NA and goes direct to computer. So HQP, Roon using Holo May driver. And it sounds amazing to us.
 

I’m sure I spend to much time tweaking my system. Different platforms, footers, cables, and vibration techniques. I rationalize all this time spent claiming it’s a hobby. In general though, we often seem to escalate the beauty of the music. 
 

I would love to hear many of this forum members systems just to hear what you were able to extract from your May DAC. 
 

Happy Listening 

 

So now you go from computer motherboard USB out to May KTE USB in (Muon cable) using NOS mode as you mentioned in another post or something different?

Thanks

 

Matt

[MichaelHiFi]

Yes. In my system, the Muon USB cable seems to act like a filter allowing me to bypass all the network devices. 
 

I tried a SoTM USB card some months ago but it had issues so I abandoned that idea. 

before I received the CD Transport, the finest expression of a song I‘be heard in my system to that date was Muon USB plugged into the ultrarendu and its supported devices NOS. But then I changed that setup looking for even better.

 

 I may need a therapist. 

 

[musicman1]

I finally was able to use DSD 1024X with various Modulators such as AMSDM7 512+fs without any issues. It still appears I may need to upgrade my CPU if I want to use the EC modulators, however I haven't tried them all. I'm also using convolution filters from Accurate Sound so I'm sure that's not helping things. One thing I've noticed using Roon and HQPlayer is sometimes things are very finnicky and I have to play with things to get everything to work, regardless if I previously changed anything or not.

 

I was wondering if there should be a specific order on turning on hardware and starting software. I usually turn on in this order - Headphone amp - Holo May DAC - HQPlayer - Roon. Is there a better order to do this? Also I have ordered the Holo Audio Serene KTE with hopes it can bring my Audio levels up a bit considering I'm losing several dB by upsampling to DSD. 

[ArcticSapien]

51 minutes ago, musicman1 said:

a specific order on turning on hardware and starting software

I've read some views on this which seem to make sense...

When turning on, turn on from source to amps (eg Bridge > DAC > Preamp > Amp ). (HQP needs to be turned on before Roon can use it).

When turning off, reverse it, i.e. turn off from amps to source.

 

The reason being that when we Power On electronic products, there may be a transient signal surge that could hit the speaker drivers if the amps are already live. Sounds logical.

This article is about DAC glitches, but seem to imply the same thing? https://studylib.net/doc/18143637/tb325--understanding-glitch-in-a-high-speed-d-a-converter

 

Look forward to hearing your experience with the Holo Serene later.

[KenMoreira]

Is it still worth it to use the higher dsd sample rates now that theirs a 20kHz filter?  Or with that eliminating any 'measurable' noise being omitted... Should i lower my settings and try for L sync?