HOLO Audio MAY DAC

[sworksone]

NOS mode and send it what ever rate you want externally.  The Holo sounds great in nos, why add another stage to os internally.

 

I agree with this.  Every now and then I find OS PCM sounds good with a wide soundstage but I seem to inevitably revert back to NOS - this is with an Innuos Zenith Mk3 usually feeding the May CD quality / 44.1 but occasionally up to 192 on Qobuz.   

[ted_b]

My strong recommendation is to leave the May in NOS mode (stay far away from OS mode; it's a $5 upsampling chip) and use your software player to upsample to anything (PCM to 1.5Mhz, DSD to DSD1024 if you want...and if your music server can handle the heavy lifting).

[musicman1]

Thanks for everyone's input. How then do I know what rate the music is being over sampled at?  Say for instance I select OS PCM and the source from say Qobuz says the song is 24/192. By selecting these options on my DAC, does this just tell the DAC to allow oversampling from the source? Also on my App source I'm seeing different options. I use both Tidal and Qobuz. Should I be selecting "Communications Speakers (Holo Audio USB Digital Interface Gen 2)" or should I be selecting "Speakers  (Holo Audio USB Digital Interface Gen 2)? They look the same besides the words Communications. This is on the Tidal interface and I am selecting Exclusive mode and Force Volume.

 

On Qobuz the options are Holo Audio ASIO and ASIO, Primary sound, Direct Sound, and Speakers  (Holo Audio USB Digital Interface Gen 2) Wasapi, Wasapi Exclusive mode and directsound. Very confusing!

 

One last question. On Tidal it gives me an option to enable or disable MQA software decoding. I know the main reason for this is for DAC's that can do full MQA decoding. I understand my DAC has no unfolding capabilities but if my streamer has a MQA software unfolding option, is there any advantage in having the unfolding done by my streamer as opposed to having it done directly from Tidal? 

[ted_b]

3 minutes ago, musicman1 said:

Say for instance I select OS PCM

Do NOT!  Select NOS instead.  Let the software player do the upsampling, or let the streaming services send you hirez untouched, if you want.  If you are Windows, select ASIO. 

[Schafheide]

On 6/5/2022 at 6:44 AM, musicman1 said:

 

So by selecting that mode it just means it can be oversampled but it is completely driven by the source? I'm looking at some streamers that allow oversampling so would it need to be setup at the source? I don't use HQPlayer and have no interest in Roon.   

Interesting that you don't use HQPlayer.  HQPlayer blows my Auralic Aries G2.1 into the weeds!  Much improved sound plus (for even better sound) it will convert lo res flac, hi res flac and DSD64 (and above) into DSD512 (the limit of my NAA and DDC).

[musicman1]

1 hour ago, Schafheide said:

Interesting that you don't use HQPlayer.  HQPlayer blows my Auralic Aries G2.1 into the weeds!  Much improved sound plus (for even better sound) it will convert lo res flac, hi res flac and DSD64 (and above) into DSD512 (the limit of my NAA and DDC).

 

I have tried the trail version. The problem is I stream Tidal and Qobuz and want easy and full access to both. While HQPlayer allows access to Qobuz, its very basic and limited! I have a very small music collection of my own so Roon and HQPlayer really don't make sense. As a matter of fact, one of my decisions I'm trying to make is if I should continue using my desktop computer or should I purchase a high-quality dedicated streamer such as a Aurender N20. I know of a couple places that have a very liberal return policies on this and may go that route to see if it's worth doing.

[Jud]

3 hours ago, musicman1 said:

 

I have tried the trail version. The problem is I stream Tidal and Qobuz and want easy and full access to both. While HQPlayer allows access to Qobuz, its very basic and limited! I have a very small music collection of my own so Roon and HQPlayer really don't make sense. As a matter of fact, one of my decisions I'm trying to make is if I should continue using my desktop computer or should I purchase a high-quality dedicated streamer such as a Aurender N20. I know of a couple places that have a very liberal return policies on this and may go that route to see if it's worth doing.

 

You might try Audirvana Studio. (Apologies if I'm coming in late and this has already been discussed.)  Full access to Tidal and Qobuz without jumping through any hoops other than providing your name and password for those services, and will upsample to the limit of your DAC input.  Has some adjustments but concentrates on making most choices simple.

[musicman1]

7 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

You might try Audirvana Studio. (Apologies if I'm coming in late and this has already been discussed.)  Full access to Tidal and Qobuz without jumping through any hoops other than providing your name and password for those services, and will upsample to the limit of your DAC input.  Has some adjustments but concentrates on making most choices simple.

 

Thank you Jud, I appreciate the suggestion. I will definitely check it out. 

[Quadman]

@musicman1I know you don't think roon is right for you but it is a mostly wonderful graphical interface which integrates well with both tidal and Qobuz and HQPlayer.  You may have a small music library but you can add favorites from tidal and qobuz to expand it.  HQPlayer is by far the very best up sampling program out there.  I only have about 3000 CD's ripped to a HDD and have about 1500 tidal and qobuz albums added to my Roon library.  Roon sends a bit perfect stream to HQPlayer where I apply up sampling (usually DSD1024) to the roon stream and send that (1024) to the Holo May.  Magic happens when you get to 1024.  Of course you also need a powerful PC to up sample to DSD1024 or even DSD512 with EC modulators.  Roon yearly plus a powerful PC is still cheaper then some streamers you are looking at by quite a few $.  A streamer like aurrender can never send a 1024 (512 or even 256 dsd) or 1.536PCM stream to the holo so you will never know how great this dac can be.

[87mpi]

3 minutes ago, Quadman said:

@musicman1I know you don't think roon is right for you but it is a mostly wonderful graphical interface which integrates well with both tidal and Qobuz and HQPlayer.  You may have a small music library but you can add favorites from tidal and qobuz to expand it.  HQPlayer is by far the very best up sampling program out there.  I only have about 3000 CD's ripped to a HDD and have about 1500 tidal and qobuz albums added to my Roon library.  Roon sends a bit perfect stream to HQPlayer where I apply up sampling (usually DSD1024) to the roon stream and send that (1024) to the Holo May.  Magic happens when you get to 1024.  Of course you also need a powerful PC to up sample to DSD1024 or even DSD512 with EC modulators.  Roon yearly plus a powerful PC is still cheaper then some streamers you are looking at by quite a few $.  A streamer like aurrender can never send a 1024 (512 or even 256 dsd) or 1.536PCM stream to the holo so you will never know how great this dac can be.

What hardware does your pc have to do dsd 1024 with EC modulators? What filters do you use?  

With ryzen 9 5900X I can do dsd 512 with ADSM7ECv2 and polysinc gauss long but only with 44.1 / 48k source files.

[Quadman]

28 minutes ago, 87mpi said:

What hardware does your pc have to do dsd 1024 with EC modulators? What filters do you use?  

With ryzen 9 5900X I can do dsd 512 with ADSM7ECv2 and polysinc gauss long but only with 44.1 / 48k source files.

I don't do 1024 w EC modulators as my rig cannot handle it.  I prefer 1024 over 512 w EC.  I realize most people would probably prefer 512 w EC to 1024.  I am not one of those, 1024 offers more transparency than 512 w EC and the stage w 1024 is just bigger and combined with that transparency magic happens.  I am lucky that I can put my speakers 8.5' into the room, a luxury most people cannot do.  That by itself offers a huge stage and 1024 has a larger stage than 512 w EC.  512w EC offers a more solid and prominent center image but sacrifices transparency and stage size and loses a bit of definition in the bass compared to 1024 non ec.

 

My server is i9-11900K based w a 3060 GPU, HQP desktop, Ubuntu 22.04 w Jussi's kernel for 1024 playback.  El Gaupo can do 1024 w EC, his rig is 12900K w a 3080 GPU, ubuntu (server I think) and HQP embedded.  I have not heard 1024 w EC so I can't comment on it.  Based on my  experience tho I would expect I would prefer 2048 no EC to 1024 w EC.  More powerful PC's needed.

 

At 1024 I prefer Gauss, gauss long, xtr short MP or LP and even hi-rez gauss MP or ip.   I would like XTR MP but my system sometimes struggles with it so I stick to the short version of it.  Sinc Lm is pretty interesting as well.

[MichaelHiFi]

I had settled on HQPlayer ADSME7 (I think) DSD256 and found it quite good. But after receiving the Network Acoustics Muon USB cable I'm happy with bypassing my network jungle and going straight from computer USB out to May.

 

And now that I have the Project RST-2 CD transport, I found I slightly prefer the transport. I just received the LTA linear power supply for the transport and found that the LPS had dramatically changed the presentation. Sound now favors the midrange and is far more relaxed. I continue to get great separation of instruments and vocals. The vocals especially are so smooth, so real sounding, but this comes at a cost. It feels that the dynamics have suffered. There's not as much texture and seems that the highs are a bit rolled off. Bass too, doesn't seem to reach the lower octaves as it does with the switching power supply. 

 

It's a split decision. We love how smooth and effortless and so much like a extremely good turntable might play it but I sort of miss the finer details and dynamics that was present with the switching power supply. Maybe break-in will return some or all of those nuances.

 

The May KTE continues to amaze. It always plays well no matter what method of digital input is used. It does not truncate anything by itself it merely outputs what is input. I know now after so many setups through the May, it feels world class. Although I've listened and owned many other Dac's including the top of the line MSB (which was amazing and many years ago), I can't say the May plays at that level of excellence. I wish I had an MSB or DCS to compare. I'm hopeful to have the Lumin X1 soon to compare if my buddy who owns one visits.

 

Anyone care to visit southern Utah and wants a dac shootout?

[musicman1]

On 6/6/2022 at 6:53 AM, Quadman said:

@musicman1I know you don't think roon is right for you but it is a mostly wonderful graphical interface which integrates well with both tidal and Qobuz and HQPlayer.  You may have a small music library but you can add favorites from tidal and qobuz to expand it.  HQPlayer is by far the very best up sampling program out there.  I only have about 3000 CD's ripped to a HDD and have about 1500 tidal and qobuz albums added to my Roon library.  Roon sends a bit perfect stream to HQPlayer where I apply up sampling (usually DSD1024) to the roon stream and send that (1024) to the Holo May.  Magic happens when you get to 1024.  Of course you also need a powerful PC to up sample to DSD1024 or even DSD512 with EC modulators.  Roon yearly plus a powerful PC is still cheaper then some streamers you are looking at by quite a few $.  A streamer like aurrender can never send a 1024 (512 or even 256 dsd) or 1.536PCM stream to the holo so you will never know how great this dac can be.

 

Thanks for the suggestion on this. I'm looking at the Aurender N20 and it will do the following:

 

USB: 32bit / 384kHz, DSD: Up to DSD256 (DoP), Native – Up to DSD512

 

I am looking at all options and considering the costs of the N20 ($12,000) I could easily pay lots of service fees (or buy lifetime) for Roon and save money. I know the USB implementation on the Holo May KTE is very good with its Galvanic isolation. The question for me is despite this, is a dedicated high-end streamer better? I would also have AES outputs with a dedicated streamer. I know oversampling by itself isn't the only factor in optimum sound quality. I know very little about Roon but have looked into it since you made this suggestion. It appears you can oversample directly from them also. I was unaware of being able to send the Roon stream to HQplayer. I do feel I could do adequate oversampling with HQplayer with my desktop computer (Intel 12 Core i7-12700K, EVGA 3080 video and 32 Mb memory). Thanks for your suggestions!

 

[Quadman]

2 hours ago, musicman1 said:

 

Thanks for the suggestion on this. I'm looking at the Aurender N20 and it will do the following:

My buddy runs the aurender N20 in his uber system with Tidal Akira speakers.  His digital is NOT the equal of mine.  He briefly, 6 months, had the May KTE dac in his system so I listened to his Aurender N20 and Holo May KTE, NOS mode.

 

Do not use Roon up sampling it is mediocre at best.  HQP up sampling is the standard all others are measured against.

 

The aurender has very limited up sampling and trust me you wouldn't want to send that signal to the Holo when you could send a HQP up sampled signal to the Holo.  It most likely uses a cheap chip to do the up sampling (like holo's own internal up sampling, don't do it.)

 

I mainly use roon as a Database and GUI, a iPad or similar makes control very easy from the listening chair.  HQP integrates with Roon seamlessly, use HQP to up sample.  I bought a lifetime Roon license back in 2015.

 

You have a very capable PC (replace the 12700 w a 12900 and almost all of HQP's filters and modulators would be available to you at any up sampling rate, even the 12700K would be pretty capable)

 

Up sample to 1024 and tell me up sampling is not critical to sound quality.  Mainstream reviewers never talk about HQP up sampling, they don't use it.  They only talk about a dacs own internal up sampling which is a far cry from HQP sending a very high resolution signal to the Holo's wonderful R2R dac boards.  You realize the Holo has an excellent linear PSU as  well.  Try it and then thank me later.

[Jud]

31 minutes ago, Quadman said:

HQP up sampling is the standard all others are measured against.

 

At this link, you can see graphs of the sample rate conversion performance of various software products: http://src.infinitewave.ca

 

HQPlayer is listed under Signalyst.  I think the filters shown are from fairly old versions of HQPlayer, and I don't know how much, if at all, the performance has changed.  The upsampling filters in Audirvana Studio are from R8brain (SoX may be available as well).  Have a look, for example, at the graphs for the "Transition" test for the Signalyst sinc filter and the R8brain linear phase filter.

 

I think this may reflect Miska's preference for what are known as "apodizing" filters.  To the extent you think you can hear differences, you may or may not prefer an apodizing filter (though HQPlayer does also have non-apodizing filters).

 

So perhaps personal preference may come into play, and therefore I think it would be difficult to single out one software product, even one offering as many high quality filtering options as HQPlayer, as the "standard" in sample rate conversion.

[barrows]

12 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

At this link, you can see graphs of the sample rate conversion performance of various software products: http://src.infinitewave.ca

 

HQPlayer is listed under Signalyst.  I think the filters shown are from fairly old versions of HQPlayer, and I don't know how much, if at all, the performance has changed.  The upsampling filters in Audirvana Studio are from R8brain (SoX may be available as well).  Have a look, for example, at the graphs for the "Transition" test for the Signalyst sinc filter and the R8brain linear phase filter.

 

I think this may reflect Miska's preference for what are known as "apodizing" filters.  To the extent you think you can hear differences, you may or may not prefer an apodizing filter (though HQPlayer does also have non-apodizing filters).

 

So perhaps personal preference may come into play, and therefore I think it would be difficult to single out one software product, even one offering as many high quality filtering options as HQPlayer, as the "standard" in sample rate conversion.

I think it is important to consider that HQPlayer really has the big advantage when used for conversion to DSD, especially considering the EC modulators-this approach offers exceptional sound quality when used with a DAC which has really good conversion of high rate DSD, like Holo Audio.  I also find that many delta sigma style DACs, such as those using the ESS chips, sound much better when fed DSD 256 via HQplayer, despite the fact that this approach still passes through the  ESS' modulator in addition to HQPlayer's...  But as this is the Holo thread, and Jussi has shown the best performance with Holo DACs occurs with DSD 256 input, all Holo owners should at least give their DACs a try with DSD 256 input in "NOS" mode using HQPlayer, preferably with the "EC" modulators as well.

[Quadman]

29 minutes ago, Jud said:

So perhaps personal preference may come into play, and therefore I think it would be difficult to single out one software product, even one offering as many high quality filtering options as HQPlayer, as the "standard" in sample rate conversion.

I only up sample to DSD (1024 sounds considerably better than 256 w EC modulators, even though it may not measure better in ultra frequencies) and It is my opinion that HQP is the standard, probably for a lot of others too.

 

Nice link, thank you, I only looked at Minphase of HQP and R8brain (precise MP) and I thought the HQP graphs looked better, phase is extremely important to me.

[ted_b]

HQPlayer, like many software players, has a free trial, so nothing to lose and you can experience great DSD high bit rates with EC modulators, or similarly great filtering (Gauss long, etc.) in high sample rate PCM.  Give it a try.

[musicman1]

I'm already on a trial for HQplayer. The only thing is its confusing for me especially the settings. Could someone who is using a Holo Audio May with Roon and HQplayer send me their configuration file so I can import it to HQplayer? I found the Roon help page for setting up the Zone to use them together. Even if your configuration is close it would be helpful. I plan to try a Roon trial also for 14 days to see if I can get these to work together.

 

Thanks

[James Stephens]

24 minutes ago, ted_b said:

HQPlayer, like many software players, has a free trial, so nothing to lose and you can experience great DSD high bit rates with EC modulators, or similarly great filtering (Gauss long, etc.) in high sample rate PCM.  Give it a try.

 

Lol does the Free Trial come with a Free NAA? 😉

 

That’s my issue. My Roon Server is Rock on an Intel NUC down in my basement with a fiber run up to my listening room. I have an M1 Mac Mini I could easily run HQP on but I would want that down in my basement too so I need an NAA that would be comparable to my Aries G2.1 in terms of quality. The only thing I feel tempted by is a Signature Rendu SE but that is a lot to spend to try HQ Player!!

 

Best,

James

[Quadman]

27 minutes ago, musicman1 said:

Even if your configuration is close it would be helpful. I plan to try a Roon trial also for 14 days to see if I can get these to work together.

Here's a config that will work for windows.  These particular settings output DSD512 with the 5ECv2 modulator.  Activate HQP output in Roon>> settings>> Audio and select HQP as the output zone.  Change oversampling 1x and nx (filters) to what you prefer.  XTR is very good, XTR short as well.  Any of the gauss family is nice to.  To play DSD1024 select 48k x1024 and use a NON EC modulator ASDM 7 512+fs or DSD5v2 256+ fs are good.

[Account Closed]

If there ever was a DAC that screamed “you better know what you are doing before you buy me “ the Holo May ( and Spring) is it.  These are true “ Computer Audiophile “ DACs and require some expertise to get the maximum performance from them. The rewards are worth the effort however.

[musicman1]

@Quadman, thanks for your suggestions. It took some time and much trial and error for me to set this up considering the very limited experience I have with HQplayer and no experience with Roon. I'm using a Trial version of both. I finally got them to work together but still have some tweaking and experimenting to do. The troubleshooting was throwing me off because HQplayer would stop working every 30 minutes since it was a trial version. After listening to a few songs and ramping up the oversampling rate I think it actually brought a tear in one of my eyes! I know I had goosebumps on at least 2 different occasions, and I had to force myself to stop listening to get some dinner. 

 

The highest setting, I tried so far was 48K X 1024 and that showed up at 768K on my May display in NOS mode.  I did have to change a couple insignificant changes you recommend like Max volume and Max sample rate but everything else was the same. Simply amazing sound and this is using a computer grade USB cable that I haven't upgraded yet. I am also going to purchase the convolution filters designed for my headphones from Accurate Sound that are highly recommended by Chris (The Computer Audiophile) in these forums and use them in HQplayer.

 

My system consists of RAAL Requisite VM-1a Tube amp (Listening in Triode mode) with the RAAL SR1a Ribbon Headphones and of course the Holo Audio May KTE DAC. To date, this is the best I have ever heard this system. Also using Triode Wire Labs Power cables, Seven Plus and Digital American series along with Zavfino "The Fusion" interconnects. Thanks so much for your help with this. Honestly in my circumstances I'm not sure if I would have kept Roon by itself, but in its current configuration in using it with HQplayer its definitely something that's staying. I'm just going to continue paying monthly for now but will be buying HQplayer. Can't wait to do some additional tweaks on this. I appreciate your suggestions. Hopefully you don't mind if I ask you some additional questions at a later date.

 

 

[Quadman]

7 minutes ago, musicman1 said:

I tried so far was 48K X 1024 and that showed up at 768K on my May display in NOS

No the display should read dsd1024x.  You are outputting pcm.  Check default output in hqp settings and make sure it says SDM (dsd).  Also dacs bits set to 20 or under.  Not over 20.

[musicman1]

1 minute ago, Quadman said:

No the display should read dsd1024x.  You are outputting pcm.  Check default output in hqp settings and make sure it says SDM (dsd).  Also dacs bits set to 20 or under.  Not over 20.

 

I was wondering about that. It still sounds pretty amazing. I will check. The bits are set at 20 though.