Solar charged battery system providing electricity for audio system

[thotdoc]

We are putting in a solar/battery system for the house. As a plus, I'll be running a new sub-panel with 20 amp lines to the dedicated audio room.

As the electricity will be from a very large battery and not the grid, is there a need for a filtering or regeneration system? I ask now because that is the next 

in the list of things to do for the system...upgrade from the Chain Lightspeed that has been used for the last decade. 

 

Does anyone have experience with this?

[asdf1000]

18 minutes ago, thotdoc said:

As the electricity will be from a very large battery and not the grid,

 

Which make and model battery, if you don't mind me asking?

 

[thotdoc]

LG Chem RESU10H

9,300 kWh

 

[RickyV]

3 hours ago, thotdoc said:

We are putting in a solar/battery system for the house. As a plus, I'll be running a new sub-panel with 20 amp lines to the dedicated audio room.

As the electricity will be from a very large battery and not the grid, is there a need for a filtering or regeneration system? I ask now because that is the next 

in the list of things to do for the system...upgrade from the Chain Lightspeed that has been used for the last decade. 

 

Does anyone have experience with this?

 

I was wondering about solar power too. I guess the quality of the solar ac depends on the quality of the inverter that makes ac from the dc. Or are there already audio mains regenerators that have a dc input?

[marce]

Whats an audio mains re generator?

Plenty of invertors out there to choose from, from companies that specialise in designing them.

 

 

[RickyV]

32 minutes ago, marce said:

Whats an audio mains re generator?

Plenty of invertors out there to choose from, from companies that specialise in designing them.

 

 

 

I mean something like a ps audio, DirectStream Power Plant 12 but with a dc "battery" input. 

I have no idea how the sine wave looks or the noise on a normal inverter is.

[marce]

Whole range of inverters that will go with the batteries, I would suspect the quality would vary as will price. Don't forget the battery is 400V d.c. so specialised market and specialised safety requirements in the design, creepage and clearance etc.

Also depending on the set up you are still connected to the mains due to feed through tariffs etc, or are in the UK. My mate had a power cur in the area and couldn't use his battery!

[thotdoc]

2 hours ago, marce said:

Whole range of inverters that will go with the batteries, I would suspect the quality would vary as will price. Don't forget the battery is 400V d.c. so specialised market and specialised safety requirements in the design, creepage and clearance etc.

Also depending on the set up you are still connected to the mains due to feed through tariffs etc, or are in the UK. My mate had a power cur in the area and couldn't use his battery!

I will still be connected to the grid, but battery usage can be set to between 5pm and 12am, the time I listen. I currently use a Chain Lightspeed...about 10 years old, that seems to work great on the front end. I was thinking of upgrading this but I want more information about what sorts of issues in the electricity I will be dealing with when using the battery primarily...which is why I asked the original question.  Thank you to all so far who have posted.

[miguelito]

10 hours ago, thotdoc said:

We are putting in a solar/battery system for the house. As a plus, I'll be running a new sub-panel with 20 amp lines to the dedicated audio room.

As the electricity will be from a very large battery and not the grid, is there a need for a filtering or regeneration system? I ask now because that is the next 

in the list of things to do for the system...upgrade from the Chain Lightspeed that has been used for the last decade. 

I suppose most of your gear requires 120V AC power in... So you would have to generate this off of the DC in the batteries. Surely what you use to generate it matters. 

 

Eg: 

 

 

Quote

Does anyone have experience with this?

No I don't so take my comments lightly...

[marce]

Its not the DC that's the problem its how you generate the AC, basically its a fixed frequency amplifier of 120V/60Hz with in this case a 400V input... So you need a source for your 60Hz, a nice sine wave, then how do you amplify it... Your 120Vs is about 170 peak so where does the excess go, or do you chop and reduce before the conversion to sine...

Its all this that can create noise.

How its designed is what makes the difference, multi layer heavy copper, buss bar designs with filtering are best... 

[sandyk]

3 hours ago, marce said:

Its not the DC that's the problem its how you generate the AC, basically its a fixed frequency amplifier of 120V/60Hz with in this case a 400V input... So you need a source for your 60Hz, a nice sine wave, then how do you amplify it... Your 120Vs is about 170 peak so where does the excess go, or do you chop and reduce before the conversion to sine...

Its all this that can create noise.

How its designed is what makes the difference, multi layer heavy copper, buss bar designs with filtering are best... 

Where you don't  need to be connected to the A.C. grid, a far better alternative may be to use DC instead ?
 Valve amplifiers for example can work well directly off 400V DC with perhaps series connected heaters and appropriate voltage regulation. It's also easy to generate small local -VE rail supplies where needed.
 Lighting can be run off DC as well. Perhaps it's time to introduce a range of devices for Off Grid homes that are specifically designed to work directly from a D.C. source, assuming that this isn't already happening  ?

Early street lighting was run from a D.C. supply.

 

 P.S.

 400V D.C. is dangerous, just like an A.C. mains supply.

[PeterSt]

1 hour ago, sandyk said:

 Lighting can be run off DC as well. Perhaps it's time to introduce a range of devices for Off Grid homes that are specifically designed to work directly from a D.C. source

 

I have been thinking of this many many times. So Alex, mind you, I would be able to create it all. The goal would be no converter losses (but the transport from the battery of the lower voltage would not be very efficient IMO).

Still I sofar decide it is undoable. Too many apparatus not working. It would almost need individual upconversion from (say) 48V to 240V (like in-car converters would do so from 12V).

 

Microwave, electric oven, monitors, TVs (say not my still to tweak), a million streamer like thingies (all 12 or 5V internally of course), the (stove) hoover, the heating system's pump and ignition/control circuitry, the relax bank's motor, the fridges (my beer !!!) and freezer, the garden tools (if not all on batteries by now already), the car battery charger, the cooling fans, the aircos, the ... 

I will stop there because my mood gets depressed.

 

But sure - hardly anything runs on 240V / 120V inherently. So it surely feels as doable.

 

Something else is that I don't like the risk. Thus, invest a couple of 10K and then "my sound" has gone. Then what ?

So far no batteries (or pure sine generators) satisfied me.

 

It would also put special constraints on my due illegal distillery. I mean, do you see me asking that Aussie supplier/manufacturer for a 48V appliance ? If it were an American Smoker BBQ it would be an other thing.

[sandyk]

6 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

It would also put special constraints on my due illegal distillery. I mean, do you see me asking that Aussie supplier/manufacturer for a 48V appliance ? If it were an American Smoker BBQ it would be an other thing.

 

Even things like electric blankets would be better off using a D.C. supply .

Do we REALLY want to be sleeping on top of a 50/60HZ magnetic field  ?

 There is also the well documented risks of exposure to nearby high voltage A.C. transmission lines.

[Ralf11]

Such risks are hardly "well documented."

 

"The body of evidence, in the committee's judgment, has not demonstrated that exposure to power-frequency electric and magnetic fields is a human-health hazard. However, some epidemiologic data support an association between surrogate measurements of magnetic fields and an increased risk of childhood leukemia."

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK232740/

[PeterSt]

12 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

Such risks are hardly "well documented."

 

I'd like to consult a dermatologist.

Of course one with digibetes. 

[sandyk]

17 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

However, some epidemiologic data support an association between surrogate measurements of magnetic fields and an increased risk of childhood leukemia."

 

 Given that my father died from Leukaemia when I was 5 years old, and a female family member on my father's side of the family suffered from Leukaemia when young ,  I am well aware of this research, which is exactly why I mentioned it.

[thotdoc]

This thread is so typical: We start with my question re battery driven audio and the need for filtration and we are at the stage of people trying to prove they are right about "epidemiologic data support an association between surrogate measurements of magnetic fields and an increased risk of childhood leukemia". 

This occurs over and over on most threads here.

 

Is it possible for people on this site to stay focused and answer the original question? I know it's possible some places because I race a Porsche in SCCA and the threads associated with Porsche racing issues on the SCCA site and the Pelican Parts site stay on track....bada-boom! On those sites the members are very direct if you are off topic.

 

Is there any desire to stay on topic? Can we self govern?

 

BTW I've found the answer: Because of noise generated within the inverter process along with assorted antennae effects, and the fact that one may want to use the system outside the time that the battery prevails, one needs to something to clean that noise.

 

Now, the question becomes what is the best noise reducer...but there is a thread for that.

[Nsxturbo]

I thought it might be time to pipe up and give some actual observations from someone who is using a relatively simple version of solar powered audio system.

I currently uses a GOAL ZERO YETI 1000 LITHIUM PORTABLE POWER STATION with 200w of solar panels for charging, 2 extra AGM 12v batteries for reserve capacity and a AC to DC charger if I need more current to recharge the batteries faster. The Yeti is a 1500w pure sine wave inverter. 
 

I run all my audio equipment and music PC off the grid, excluding my subwoofer amps. I have a separate ac circuit running 6gauge wire in galvanized pipe directly from the outside service entry to its own breaker panel and then to a 5Kv Topaz balanced transformer. Currently, I run just the subwoofer amps off that balanced power.

 

I want to qualify my observations by stating, I have never put an oscilloscope on these circuits to get the actual measured noise, so again these are my observations on my system and my electrical grid.(which for all I know could be way noisier than any of yours!)
 

It is literally no contest the pure sine wave inverter run off battery power only is dramatically better than my dedicated AC circuit in every measure of listening enjoyment. I would equate it from going from a  crappy smps to a high grade linear supply. Blacker background, more refined purer tone, much deeper bass with way more musical density. and much more information retrieval. The soundstage is much broader and way deeper, classical music is portrayed with a much more accurate sense of scale and with much better delineation between the musicians. There is no smearing of things as the music gets more complex.

FYI, I am not new to this audio game, having been in search of audio nirvana for over 35 years. So my system is pretty well sorted out and I have a lot of equipment on hand to make comparisons with, so whether I’m using my Phasure NOS1 with all the factory upgrades or my Chord M Scaler and Dave directly driving my 115db/w Orphean Horns, with highly resolving open baffle mid bass and subwoofers, The improvement my off the grid power power gave my system really stunned me, like “jaw hanging wide open, listen to your whole music library again!” stunning! 

 

Todd

[PeterSt]

7 minutes ago, Nsxturbo said:

so whether I’m using my Phasure NOS1 with all the factory upgrades or my Chord M Scaler and Dave directly driving my 115db/w Orphean Horns, with highly resolving open baffle mid bass and subwoofers, The improvement my off the grid power power gave my system really stunned me, like “jaw hanging wide open, listen to your whole music library again!” stunning! 

 

Yo Todd - long time ! ... But the question is, does it fit in your NSX. Or the Porsche, for that matter.

 

Just kidding. Great to see you around.

Peter

[Nsxturbo]

Hey Peter,

 

Well  these days maybe I should just refer to you as: “The Cable Guy” (Ok not the Jim Carey and Mathew Broderick “Cable Guy”)! 
I’m sure it is much easier constructing your wonderful cables than writing code for that 2.11 XX HighEnd release😉!
 

BTW, the NSX is great, but never owned a Porsche, The Ferrari F430 Spider is for sale but it’s replacement 458 Spider is staying put 😁!

 

 And I think I’d have to go back to my ‘80s days of customized vans for audio systems to fit any of this in there! Those darn 2 seater mid-engine cars don’t lend themselves to good audio, but of course those engines create there own sweet tunes!

 

Cheers!

 

 

[Ralf11]

It's good to see the Yeti worked out.

 

I do suspect that a DAC and amp that worked directly off DC would be better, as well as less expensive.

 

BTW - hotrodded 1973 911

[Nsxturbo]

I do agree that DC for everything seems the correct way to go.

 

My Chord M-Scaler, My STOM TX-USB Ultra My Digital crossover all run off DC and it wouldn’t be hard to convert my PC to DC & Probably my amps wouldn’t be that bad. But the cost to convert the other items would well exceed the cost of the Yeti 1000. And it’s doubtful that many of the High End manufacturers have any need or desire to create DC powered items in the near future.

[RickyV]

1 hour ago, Nsxturbo said:

I thought it might be time to pipe up and give some actual observations from someone who is using a relatively simple version of solar powered audio system.

I currently uses a GOAL ZERO YETI 1000 LITHIUM PORTABLE POWER STATION with 200w of solar panels for charging, 2 extra AGM 12v batteries for reserve capacity and a AC to DC charger if I need more current to recharge the batteries faster. The Yeti is a 1500w pure sine wave inverter. 
 

I run all my audio equipment and music PC off the grid, excluding my subwoofer amps. I have a separate ac circuit running 6gauge wire in galvanized pipe directly from the outside service entry to its own breaker panel and then to a 5Kv Topaz balanced transformer. Currently, I run just the subwoofer amps off that balanced power.

 

I want to qualify my observations by stating, I have never put an oscilloscope on these circuits to get the actual measured noise, so again these are my observations on my system and my electrical grid.(which for all I know could be way noisier than any of yours!)
 

It is literally no contest the pure sine wave inverter run off battery power only is dramatically better than my dedicated AC circuit in every measure of listening enjoyment. I would equate it from going from a  crappy smps to a high grade linear supply. Blacker background, more refined purer tone, much deeper bass with way more musical density. and much more information retrieval. The soundstage is much broader and way deeper, classical music is portrayed with a much more accurate sense of scale and with much better delineation between the musicians. There is no smearing of things as the music gets more complex.

FYI, I am not new to this audio game, having been in search of audio nirvana for over 35 years. So my system is pretty well sorted out and I have a lot of equipment on hand to make comparisons with, so whether I’m using my Phasure NOS1 with all the factory upgrades or my Chord M Scaler and Dave directly driving my 115db/w Orphean Horns, with highly resolving open baffle mid bass and subwoofers, The improvement my off the grid power power gave my system really stunned me, like “jaw hanging wide open, listen to your whole music library again!” stunning! 

 

Todd

 

Very nice Todd that’s the kind of solar system I had in mind. Good to to hear from an actual user that it is so much better then a dedicated grid power with isolation transformer. I presume you also have dedicated earth rods?

 

And just because we stating our motor vehicles, this is mine: KTM 1290 super adventure s.

[Ralf11]

Speaking of motor vehicles...  I bet you could find a pretty nice 12 V DC amp in a Lexus, MB Maytag, or a Rolls.  IIRC, Lexus uses a JBL system that is custom designed for them.

[Nsxturbo]

Hey Ricky,

 

Yeah the earthing rods with the special soil mix, the whole nine yards. I really should buy a decent scope just to get a visual of what’s really going on.

 

So about a week ago I heard this out of the ordinary sound coming down the street and could hear the turbo whine, it was the KTM, my neighbor just got one! It’s frigg’n wicked! You must have a blast!