Hqplayer: best NAA with best sound quality

[jabbr]

1 minute ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Good point. I would love to see if some SFP / SFP+ modules are noisy, thus causing more noise after the fiber connection (toward the audio device) than would exist without the fiber. 

The fiber itself transmits photons so no electrical noise. The SFP(+) modules should be made in a fashion that they have known measured low noise characteristics. 1Gbe is trivial but 100/200/400 Gbe takes some real engineering . Same lasers and detectors.

[Randomrunner]

23 minutes ago, toddrhodes said:

I've wanted to get one of those UpBoards for awhile, but this seems like it's even one better in some ways. 

 

 

I just put one UpBoard up for sale on Ebay.  If anyone is interested, please go there to do a search.  If anyone feel my post here is inappropriate, please let me know, and I will remove this post.  Thanks.

[jabbr]

23 minutes ago, toddrhodes said:

 

I think I'm going to give it a shot. It will simplify the setup a little and even if all else is equal, I like less clutter and stuff to break. And I am using a fiber optic line into my room with converters on either side. 

 

I've wanted to get one of those UpBoards for awhile, but this seems like it's even one better in some ways. 

 

Interesting point on the fiber ethernet - I'm not sure I heard a difference either way with my current setup how it's run, but I do like that it serves as a bit of a surge break into the room, if nothing else.

 

Decluttering is great!

 

Yes, I have my music system sitting behind a balanced isolator (equi-tech Q) so no junk from the external world and no cheap SMPS. The only input is a fiber. I give zero worry about noisy servers because the fiber is terrific isolation.

[ted_b]

When configuring a Fitlet2 for optical NAA for a Holo May, which Intel cpu will work better, one of the Atom choices or the Celeron?  Would the more powerful Atom be the quietest (given that NAA work is not heavy lifting, so most powerful doesn't break a sweat)?

[toddrhodes]

3 hours ago, ted_b said:

When configuring a Fitlet2 for optical NAA for a Holo May, which Intel cpu will work better, one of the Atom choices or the Celeron?  Would the more powerful Atom be the quietest (given that NAA work is not heavy lifting, so most powerful doesn't break a sweat)?

 

I went with the Atom processor, but not for any particular reason per se. The NAA image should barely move the needle on any of those CPU choices and they're all fanless, so my expectation is they'll be silent either way. I kinda just figured the Atom would be the most efficient of the choices, basically.

[ericuco]

14 hours ago, ted_b said:

When configuring a Fitlet2 for optical NAA for a Holo May, which Intel cpu will work better, one of the Atom choices or the Celeron?  Would the more powerful Atom be the quietest (given that NAA work is not heavy lifting, so most powerful doesn't break a sweat)?

 

When considering which CPU to choose, I asked Jussi and he recommended the Intel Atom x7-E3950. My unit barely gets above room temperature.

[ted_b]

Thanks @toddrhodes and @ericuco.  I will order it with the E3950.   👍

[Confused]

I see GoldenSound has published some measurements for the iFi Zen Stream:

 

https://goldensound.audio/2021/07/22/ifi-zen-stream-measurements/

 

[Miska]

I guess the rate limits specified for ZEN Stream are based on the 802.11n WiFi. I will check NAA limits through Ethernet once I get Spring 3.

 

[toddrhodes]

6 hours ago, Miska said:

I guess the rate limits specified for ZEN Stream are based on the 802.11n WiFi. I will check NAA limits through Ethernet once I get Spring 3.

 

 

I'll have a Zen Stream to test with HQPlayer and Venus II on Tuesday 7/27, and will feed it Ethernet. I'll see if what I can squeeze out of it and report back. Currently using a Pi2AES with RoPieeeXL. Maybe a dumb question but I assume there's no way to make the HQP NAA image work with a HAT that requires something like the HiFiBerry driver to operate? No big deal either way, just curious.

 

Thanks for posting what you did - I had been on the fence about grabbing a ZEN Stream based on @GoldenOne's measurements but wanted something that could eventually do a little higher bitrate for PCM. Though since I'm getting a May in 6-7 weeks, and you've mentioned you prefer May in DSD, maybe it doesn't really matter.

 

Either way, that's what I'm doing :)

 

Edit - from the looks of it, I can power it just fine with my 13.3V tap on my Ian Canada LifePO4 battery PSU, so that's nice.

[BrownMagic]

According to IFI, Zen stream can only handle PCM 384 / DSD 264 on Lan or wifi. 
 

[Miska]

6 hours ago, toddrhodes said:

Maybe a dumb question but I assume there's no way to make the HQP NAA image work with a HAT that requires something like the HiFiBerry driver to operate?

 

There is support for example for HifiBerry hats. List of supported overlays is on my web page.

 

[toddrhodes]

Ok, can confirm - DSD256 is fine, haven't tried higher on the Zen Stream. But PCM384 is its limit. If I set HQPlayer to anything higher, it just fails to start playing which is odd - usually it just knocks the rate back to the highest supported one. Maybe that's new, I don't know. But PCM384/DSD256 appear to be its limits. 

 

It only lasted about 3 hours playing on my LifePO4 setup, and they needed a recharge. The Pi4 or Pi2AES can play for 8+ hours, so it's definitely pulling more juice. Not that that really means a lot. Going to use the included iPower PSU for now.

 

Was really easy to set up, so that was nice. Flipped it to NAA mode, plugged it into power, Ethernet, and USB to the DAC, HQ Player PC detected it and I was off and playing music. It's bigger than I expected, and hefty. Seems like a really solid device from a quality and fit/finish perspective.

[AudioDoctor]

2 hours ago, toddrhodes said:

Ok, can confirm - DSD256 is fine, haven't tried higher on the Zen Stream. But PCM384 is its limit. If I set HQPlayer to anything higher, it just fails to start playing which is odd - usually it just knocks the rate back to the highest supported one. Maybe that's new, I don't know. But PCM384/DSD256 appear to be its limits. 

 

It only lasted about 3 hours playing on my LifePO4 setup, and they needed a recharge. The Pi4 or Pi2AES can play for 8+ hours, so it's definitely pulling more juice. Not that that really means a lot. Going to use the included iPower PSU for now.

 

Was really easy to set up, so that was nice. Flipped it to NAA mode, plugged it into power, Ethernet, and USB to the DAC, HQ Player PC detected it and I was off and playing music. It's bigger than I expected, and hefty. Seems like a really solid device from a quality and fit/finish perspective.

 

Was there a sound difference compared to the Pi?

[toddrhodes]

25 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

 

Was there a sound difference compared to the Pi?

 

Don't know yet. Just pulled up a chair to listen to it now. I can say - it does sound very good, right out of the box. But no comparisons at this point; going to have to rig that up so I can do some comparative listening. That said, I'm not sitting down now thinking it all sounds like I overhauled everything. So it's gonna be close, to say the least, I think. Which says a lot for a well-powered Pi or Pi2AES, frankly.

[toddrhodes]

I will try to be as "least effusive" as I can here. 

 

I'm kinda shocked by Zen Stream. I still need to compare to my LifePO4 Pi4 running USB and HQP NAA image, but it was a thorough, and unmistakable beatdown of Pi2AES. And I hate to say that as that is a wonderful device. I <3 my Pi2AES. But there was an immediate and substantial uptick in clarity, definition, articulation with Zen Stream.

 

To be fair - I am using HQPlayer and I am feeding Zen Stream DSD256 with ASDM7EC, Sinc-Mx filter. 

I am feeding Pi2AES 192 PCM, NS9 noise shaping, Sinc-Mx filter

 

I'm using Art Blakey and the Jazz Messengers - Mosaic, as my main test track. It's a busy, well-recorded, fun, sharp track. Lots going on, great depth and imaging, and there's this underlying bass rhythm that had heretofore eluded me as to how interesting, fast, and playful it was. Zen Stream reveals it. Pi2AES just kinda smeared it into the soundscape. 

I'm using the AES/EBU output of Pi2AES and am using my own cable, a Furutech rhodium XLR with VH Audio's finest digital interconnect, I forget the name but can look it up if need be.

 

I bought Zen Stream thinking it might do more than DSD256 (not that I need it) and PCM 384. I've really enjoyed 768 sent into my DAC via the Pi4 USB. I fully expected to be underwhelmed. I bought it on Amazon so I could easily return it. 

 

I'm not sure that's going to happen now. I might be selling a Pi2AES and a battery power supply, though, along with a home built DDC. 

 

This was unexpected.

[BrownMagic]

26 minutes ago, toddrhodes said:

This was unexpected.

 

If you go through Goldensound's measurements, the jitter is really low on the Zen Stream compared to the Pi2AES which by itself is a very capable device. If only Zen could support HQP 1.5M PCM on my MAY, it would have been a no brainer choice. If at some point they do support it,I will buy it blindly. For now, I have to rely on my Mele Mini PC for HQP 1.5 PCM. 

[toddrhodes]

So, one of the reasons I DID end up pulling the trigger was @Miska mentioning he only uses Holo DACs in DSD. I don't have May yet, but it's coming in a month or so. And based on my usage of DSD and my trust in Miska, I was going to start out using DSD only, so the upper limit of Zen being DSD256 fits perfectly, and I'm hearing what it's capable of now. 

 

All that to say, I don't intend to use PCM with May. I certainly want to give it a shot, but holy moly, this thing is impressive. 

 

I've now switched over to a comparison to my Pi4 (battery power or wall power, hasn't mattered in this fight) using HQP NAA image, same settings/filters as Zen Stream.

 

It did narrow the gap. But Zen has something extra in it. More attack, better transients or dynamics? I'm not really sure how to describe it, but I hear it. I've been going back and forth on this same track and it's not all that subtle. And this is a streamed track from Qobuz - trying to make this as fair a subjective fight as possible. And Zen is winning handily, though it does cost a good deal more than a basic Pi4, for sure. But at this point, the only difference is the streamer, and it's a clear winner. 

[BrownMagic]

14 minutes ago, toddrhodes said:

All that to say, I don't intend to use PCM with May

I went the opposite route. I went with @GoldenOne advice that PCM 1.5M via HQP fed into NOS mode of May is the best sounding. This is also what other May users in the May group advised me. I’m not familiar with DSD so do share your listening impressions. 
 

So for me HQP will output to Roon. NAA will run HQP OS. Streaming from Qobuz.  Will use May USB with PLL on. 

 

Cheers 

[toddrhodes]

7 minutes ago, BrownMagic said:

I went the opposite route. I went with @GoldenOne advice that PCM 1.5M via HQP fed into NOS mode of May is the best sounding. This is also what other May users in the May group advised me. I’m not familiar with DSD so do share your listening impressions. 
 

So for me HQP will output to Roon. NAA will run HQP OS. Streaming from Qobuz.  Will use May USB with PLL on. 

 

Cheers 

 

I may be wrong as I don't have mine yet either, but I don't think USB uses PLL. That's used with SPDIF sources, I thought? Either way, no big deal. There'll be time to sort that out on my end, I'm sure.

 

I'll keep the Pi4 and HQP NAA image handy and definitely compare PCM 1.5 to DSD 256. 

 

My experience thus far has been that DSD256 was a bit more relaxed, maybe a little less exciting than high rates of PCM. And to wit, I've really been on a PCM kick lately with Venus II. But I'm not sure if it's the new Sinc-Mx filter, or if it's Zen Stream, or some combination - but DSD256 + ASDM7EC is sounding very "fast," and exciting - regardless of genre - tonight. 

 

I mean... I should be in bed by now. I have to take my wife to get her van serviced tomorrow morning and I should be asleep. But I can't turn this off. I just fired up some Snarky Puppy and it sounds really nice. No matter what, I think IFI has a really compelling product here.

[BrownMagic]

10 minutes ago, toddrhodes said:

I may be wrong as I don't have mine yet either, but I don't think USB uses PLL. That's used with SPDIF sources, I thought? Either way, no big deal. There'll be time to sort that out on my end, I'm sure.

Oh what I meant was that USB locks instantly and it is the best input on the May for high sample rates. Basically don’t have to worry about the quality of the transport feeding the May.  The PLL is applied on all digital inputs is what I’m told.

 

I loved the Sync MX filter. To me that’s the reason why I want 1.5m pcm over anything else! 

 

 

[Confused]

I have a ZEN Stream on order, it should be here before the weekend.  A bit of a punt for me, in my case it will be up against my current clocked SOtM sMS-200Ultra Neo and tX-USBultra.  My SOtM kit is used to feed a Mutec MC3+USB, and in the past I have experimented with connecting all kinds of things to the MC3+USB.  I got great results feeding the Mutec with via an old Arcam BDP300 playing music from a thumb drive.  Being a Blueray player I am sure the Arcam is a few steps away from being the ultimate audio device, but it was perhaps surprising just how close it got to the SOtM kit.  This at least provided me with proof of concept that the good results can be achieved feeding the MC3+USB via S/PDIF.

 

The ZEN appears to have very low noise and decent jitter measurements via S/PDIF, so in theory should perform well, but I do see this as a bit of an experiment to hear what the impact will be of fully removing USB from the chain.

 

Even without the external clock mods the SOtM kit is about five times the price of the Zen Steam.  So this should be an interesting comparison.

[Miska]

To me, PCM even at 1.5M rates still sounds a bit flat and non-dynamic. Drums are a bit flap-flap without body, etc. And the sound is a little congested and busy compared to DSD256 from EC modulators where things open up.

 

When comparing PCM vs DSD with Holo Audio DACs, you need to remember to compensate for the 6 dB level difference. So if your amplifier doesn't have dB-based volume control display, you can turn down HQPlayer volume to -9 dB when using PCM output compared to -3 dB when using SDM output.

 

[ted_b]

I personally think the Holo May does an incredible job with BOTH PCM (at 32fs) and DSD (at DSD256 with EC modulators).  I listen to PCM material at PCM 32fs and DSD material at DSD256 ASDM7EC (or 5EC).  I personally believe that the dual dac architecture of the Holo May is its secret sauce.  If you are going to stay DSD only there are less expensive options, even in the Holo line.  My $.02

[Miska]

On 7/28/2021 at 8:25 PM, ted_b said:

If you are going to stay DSD only there are less expensive options, even in the Holo line.  My $.02

 

Like what? If you mean Cyan DSD, it is not nearly as good as Spring 1. And thus not even close to Spring 2, 3 or May. And it's price difference to Spring 1 is pretty small. Just having the PCM support doesn't seem to change the price so much that it would make much sense to leave it out either. You still need the same digital sections, DSD conversion section, same analog sections and same PSU.

 

I listen with my Holo Audio DACs only at DSD256 using ASDM7EC because it sounds so much better than any PCM. And gives notably better jitter performance too.