LP "listening bars" trending... but why not digital?

[AudioDoctor]

1 hour ago, ednaz said:

I'm not missing the point. First, there are speakers (I've heard quite a few) that are unimpressive outside of the sweet spot, but breathtaking inside. I know that for certain from shopping for speakers for my two main audio systems. 

 

 

No one there cares about the "sweet spot."

[Rexp]

14 hours ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

 

With the exception of some circa 1985 vinyl that was digitally sourced because the transition to digital workflows was underway, all of my vinyl is AAA.  The digital masters of that era are mostly lackluster,  so vinyl derived from that is quite underwhelming.

 

Are you recommending something?

Try this for example:

https://www.discogs.com/Giuseppe-Verdi-Placido-Domingo-Katia-Ricciarelli-Lorin-Maazel-Otello/release/5245393

 

 

[Rexp]

11 hours ago, ednaz said:

I'm not missing the point. First, there are speakers (I've heard quite a few) that are unimpressive outside of the sweet spot, but breathtaking inside. I know that for certain from shopping for speakers for my two main audio systems. 

 

I AM talking about an audiophile listening space. The current description includes "that also happens to spin vinyl." I don't think many people have heard how amazing the jazz studio recordings of Rudi Van Gelder sound through top end equipment, or have heard how much better the recent digital remasters sound than the original issues on either CD or vinyl. There are some "live at" albums that are palpably three dimensional. 

My question is, would people choose to come drink in a place with the best of the best sound quality and music selected that's best of the best production, instead of at a place where people talk over the sound system because it's no great shakes. I know that in my younger days, there were one or two people where everyone else wanted to hang out because the audio system was head and shoulders better than anywhere else. 

I'm still looking for a digital source that can do Jazz, so if a bar opened up near me that played Jazz properly, like my turntable does, I'd be drinking there big time! 

[Booster MPS]

While I love the idea of a spot like this to chill, I fear that it would serve a very distracted crowd more often than not at least in the US.  The venues and shows that you can attend where the artist has the sole attention of the audience are few and rate at least in Houston.  Listening is often a forgotten skill.

[Rexp]

Well presumably folks go to Listening Bars to listen but a good sound system at any bar will draw in clientele, always has. 

[CatManDo]

On a related note, there is a japanese music collector - Tony Narumiya - who organises "record concerts" for up to a dozen people in his listening room, playing records on his high end system. Here also, the main focus is on vinyl. I wonder how difficult it must be to keep people quiet for an entire LP side.

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/BxWEYu1A1K9/

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/BsmNCShAmxb/

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/BtHgqAxAMM4/

[rando]

In Japan the question might be politely considered as how do you establish the exact bounds within which silence must exist on either end.  

 

@AudioDoctor you discretely neglect to mention the competition to said vinyl themed places is somewhere that lays out board games and a Dave & Busters.  I doubt I'm the only one who laughed at dispelling the inherent snobbery by relating your tale replete with a melodramatic flourish to cap it off. 

 

Go drink Grain Belt to an early Hüsker Dü cut and come to the realization how far from any coast and this current trend you really are.  Sitting somewhere until something comes back around is similarly about as far from the energy and immediacy of a fresh and youthful scene as one can get.  I say this as a friendly voice of reason.

 

A visual aid:  HOT!!!! MN club wear

 

[Samuel T Cogley]

14 hours ago, Rexp said:

Try this for example:

https://www.discogs.com/Giuseppe-Verdi-Placido-Domingo-Katia-Ricciarelli-Lorin-Maazel-Otello/release/5245393

 

I'd need to acquire the digital media first.  And opera's not really my jam.  But I appreciate the recommendation.  Thanks!

[bluesman]

You have to understand the Japanese and Asian culture in general to understand this and the many similar activities that pervade their lives but are absent from the cultures of much of western civilization.  This isn't about sound quality or hardware or any other specific element of the experience - it's about the experience itself.  It's about sensory input, awareness, and serenity.  It's about how it makes you feel as you immerse yourself in it.

 

If there is an English word to describe it, that word would probably be "cool" in the best sense.  You can't buy cool and you can't put it on - you can only be cool.  And part of Asian cool is experiencing things as deeply and with as much involvement and interest as possible.  This is sadly alien to many in the western hemisphere.

 

When our son worked in Tokyo, we got to spend more than a few evenings in such places, many of which (including restaurants) offer or feature only one thing.  The focus may have been jazz, or Scotch, or wine, a specific kind of food, a topic of conversation etc.  The focus itself is the attraction, and the Japanese love to experience everything they can from even the simplest object or act.  There are many tiny local places that only serve yakitori or shabu shabu or nabe or sukiyaki.  And there are many more ways to experience and share each than we (or at least I and most westerners with whom I've discussed this) have the patience and attention span to find and enjoy.

 

As the saying goes, you shouldn't turn other peoples' culture into your costume.  We tend to appropriate what catches our eyes or imaginations from other cultures with imperfect understanding of what it means to them and why.  We buy a miniature topiary and put it on display, while Asians revere bonsai as magical and spiritual.  We buy or make a zen garden or koi pool as decoration, while Asians derive spiritual energy from them and can sit adjacent to them for hours enjoying simply being there.  So we try to understand the allure of hardware or program material in a vinyl bar when the true attraction is the experience itself and all it means to those who fully embrace it.

 

A few such places may prosper in isolation in the US, but embracing this way of life seems not to be in our DNA.

[Ralf11]

Well put, except that every culture diffuses into someone else's (witness your listing of scotch & wine above).

 

Also, many non-Asians on the West coast at least experience aspects of various Asian cultures in the same way as some Asians do.  I'll also reject the DNA allusion...

[bluesman]

3 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

Well put, except that every culture diffuses into someone else's (witness your listing of scotch & wine above).

 

Also, many non-Asians on the West coast at least experience aspects of various Asian cultures in the same way as some Asians do.  I'll also reject the DNA allusion...

 

Sure , many non-Asian people can and do enjoy and understand much about Asian culture.  But many if not most of us tend to approach life in a different way.  More than one cab driver in Japan thanked us for gracing his cab.  One refused to accept payment for a ride because he had to drive around the block a few times to find the place we were going.  We watched a young girl chase a patron down the street to return a tip he'd left on her table - we heard her tell him that perfect service is expected, and that she was pleased she could provide it for him.  The staff at many stores (e.g. Mitsukoshi, a wonderful department store) greets each customer entering the store and offers to provide whatever assistance might be needed.  I don't see that approach to life very much here in the states.

 

As for distillation, it began in Asia - they were distilling and drinking fermented rice and mare's milk as far back as 800 BCE.  It spread to Greece by the next century and it was actually an Arabic alchemist who invented the pot still in about the 8th century.  The modern Japanese whiskey industry as we know it today dates to about 1930 and the establishment of what became Suntory.  But sake dates back about 2500 years in Japan, so they're way ahead of us in the wine world.

[mansr]

14 minutes ago, bluesman said:

As for distillation, it began in Asia - they were distilling and drinking fermented rice and mare's milk as far back as 800 BCE.  It spread to Greece by the next century and it was actually an Arabic alchemist who invented the pot still in about the 8th century.  The modern Japanese whiskey industry as we know it today dates to about 1930 and the establishment of what became Suntory.  But sake dates back about 2500 years in Japan, so they're way ahead of us in the wine world.

The word alcohol is of Arabic origin, though the original meaning is quite different.

[AudioDoctor]

5 hours ago, rando said:

In Japan the question might be politely considered as how do you establish the exact bounds within which silence must exist on either end.  

 

@AudioDoctor you discretely neglect to mention the competition to said vinyl themed places is somewhere that lays out board games and a Dave & Busters.  I doubt I'm the only one who laughed at dispelling the inherent snobbery by relating your tale replete with a melodramatic flourish to cap it off. 

 

Go drink Grain Belt to an early Hüsker Dü cut and come to the realization how far from any coast and this current trend you really are.  Sitting somewhere until something comes back around is similarly about as far from the energy and immediacy of a fresh and youthful scene as one can get.  I say this as a friendly voice of reason.

 

A visual aid:  HOT!!!! MN club wear

 

 

 

Dave and Busters? Those are for people that live in boring planned suburban subdivisions...

 

https://www.updownarcadebar.com

 

Second, I need that sweater, have a link?

[stuck limo]

On 6/4/2019 at 8:33 PM, AudioDoctor said:

 

This is probably the snobbiest, most ridiculous thing I have seen on this forum during it's entire existence. That's really saying something. Why on earth would it matter? There are bars/clubs here in the Minneapolis/St Paul area that spin vinyl and never once have I been there and thought, Gee I wonder if this vinyl is cut from a digital master...

Good lord...

 

If people are going to these bars and expecting to hear the best vinyl (meaning, the actual platter) experience (and using digitally sourced vinyl), then they're not understanding the hobby or technology and are misinformed. I think mostly these bars are using older LPs that were NOT digitally sourced though, so I don't think it's that big of an issue. 

 

On the other hand, if they're going to these bars for the physical experience (ie, cool looking machinery, excellent sounding speakers, nice lounge atmosphere, etc.) then they're getting their money's worth and I'm sure it's really fun, unique experience. 

 

Personally, I think most people who go to these bars go for 75% experience/atmosphere, and MAYBE 25 percent "sound". 

[AudioDoctor]

On 6/7/2019 at 3:30 PM, bluesman said:

The staff at many stores (e.g. Mitsukoshi, a wonderful department store) greets each customer entering the store and offers to provide whatever assistance might be needed.  I don't see that approach to life very much here in the states.

 

Not many, but the ones that do have my perpetual business. Brooks Brothers here in Minneapolis is a great example. I see their employees around town and even then they greet me, by name...

 

How rare is that?

[ednaz]

On 6/7/2019 at 3:56 PM, bluesman said:

You have to understand the Japanese and Asian culture in general to understand this and the many similar activities that pervade their lives but are absent from the cultures of much of western civilization.  This isn't about sound quality or hardware or any other specific element of the experience - it's about the experience itself.  It's about sensory input, awareness, and serenity.  It's about how it makes you feel as you immerse yourself in it.

 

 

I worked as a marketing and new product development consultant, and I have hundreds of stories about products or distribution that rocketed to ubiquity in Japan or Korea, but couldn't ever make the leap to other countries. Watched dozens of banks try to do kiosk banking they way they did in Korea and Japan,, with zero success. Brutal failures, in fact, where customers didn't just shun the kiosks, but voiced very strong and nasty opinions.

 

I've booked trips to NY and LA to visit the setups there. I've also gotten interest from a couple of small and mid-size colleges to do a six month trial in a coffee house style space - no alcohol - but it'll produce good information on the attractiveness of the overall "superb audio system" aspects.

[ednaz]

On 6/7/2019 at 4:30 PM, bluesman said:

As for distillation, it began in Asia - they were distilling and drinking fermented rice and mare's milk as far back as 800 BCE.  It spread to Greece by the next century and it was actually an Arabic alchemist who invented the pot still in about the 8th century.  The modern Japanese whiskey industry as we know it today dates to about 1930 and the establishment of what became Suntory.  But sake dates back about 2500 years in Japan, so they're way ahead of us in the wine world.

 

History is a little bit off. First mentions of beer brewing in the Middle East in writing were in Persia, around 7000 BCE, and you'll find it in the written records in Persia, Sumeria, Egypt. Since the first written mentions are 7000 BCE, they'd clearly been at it for longer than that. Egyptians were brewing beer and fermenting wine at industrial scale during the pre-dynastic period, 3100 BCE.  Bakers were also beer makers. They took loaves of bread, soaked them and immersed them in big jars to ferment.  (The royals and rich folks drank wine... beer was for the workers.) The wheat they used is now called emmer, and they also used rye. Later on (around 2000 BCE) they also brewed using grains instead of using bread. You'll find beer containers in the pyramid rooms where workers were interred.  Egyptians were distilling alcohol to drink second century BCE, which is where the Greeks learned it.

I'm part of a group that's using yeasts made from scrapings from bread bowls and beer jugs, taken from a couple recently opened tombs, dating to early Dynasty,  to make Egyptian-style breads and beers. (we're also experimenting with yeasts reclaimed from other historic time periods.) Yes, it does taste different. Yes, it genotypes differently from other typed contemporary yeasts, although someone's now in Egypt picking up samples to test.

[bluesman]

4 minutes ago, ednaz said:

Brutal failures, in fact, where customers didn't just shun the kiosks, but voiced very strong and nasty opinions.

 

And this, to me, is the critical difference between American culture and Asian. We assume the worst about everyone.  Anger is our default response to anything we perceive as a challenge to our opinions and the sense of superiority they confer on us.  There is little or no presumption of honor or integrity on the part of or toward the other party in any dispute, whether real or falsely perceived.  If a driver accidentally discovers that he or she is in the wrong lane and wants to move to the correct one before reaching a barrier or other prohibition against lane changing, the typical American response is to assume that the driver is a fool and/or maliciously trying to cut off the responder.  The latter takes offense immediately and makes every possible effort to prevent the desired lane change.  

 

My wife and I have been amazed at the level of courtesy and consideration most Asians show each other and visitors to their region. We've experienced this consistently in Japan, Hong Kong, and Vietnam.  There's simply little or none of this mindless reactive anger to things that don't go as hoped and planned.  Instead, the default presumption is that anyone can make a mistake and that it was not personal or directed at the other party.  As a result, mutual efforts are made to accommodate each other in daily life.  We could all benefit from a healthy dose of such tranquility and thoughtful accommodation of interpersonal differences.

 

I suspect that those who enjoy vinyl bars in Japan don't criticize the equipment, the playlists, or anything else about the place.  They accept and embrace everything for what it is and try to make each experience the best they can.  They may well find things they dislike there, but they'll be as positive as they can and politely suggest how they think things could be even better than they are now.  They go out of their way to save face for others and, in doing so, preserve and enhance their own dignity.

[bluesman]

6 minutes ago, ednaz said:

History is a little bit off. First mentions of beer brewing in the Middle East in writing were in Persia, around 7000 BCE, and you'll find it in the written records in Persia, Sumeria, Egypt. Since the first written mentions are 7000 BCE, they'd clearly been at it for longer than that. Egyptians were brewing beer and fermenting wine at industrial scale during the pre-dynastic period, 3100 BCE.  Bakers were also beer makers. They took loaves of bread, soaked them and immersed them in big jars to ferment.  (The royals and rich folks drank wine... beer was for the workers.) The wheat they used is now called emmer, and they also used rye. Later on (around 2000 BCE) they also brewed using grains instead of using bread. You'll find beer containers in the pyramid rooms where workers were interred.  Egyptians were distilling alcohol to drink second century BCE, which is where the Greeks learned it.

 

I appreciate your knowledge and experience - your beer history is, of course, correct.  But beer is not a distillate, and I made no mention of or reference to beer.  I was responding to a comment about whiskey and wine - and my history on that is quite correct.

 

Although whiskey is technically made from "beer", that's only because the mash is fermented.  There's a growing trend in the US toward distilling ready-to-drink beer into spirits.  If you're of a mind to do so, find yourself a bottle of Pine Barrens or Ranger Creek's La Bestia Defavorable for an imteresting experience.  I love the stuff!

[ednaz]

On 6/7/2019 at 4:27 AM, CatManDo said:

On a related note, there is a japanese music collector - Tony Narumiya - who organises "record concerts" for up to a dozen people in his listening room, playing records on his high end system. Here also, the main focus is on vinyl. I wonder how difficult it must be to keep people quiet for an entire LP side.

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/BxWEYu1A1K9/

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/BsmNCShAmxb/

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/BtHgqAxAMM4/

 

In the 'burb of Detroit where I grew up, we used to do something similar. A couple of us had sound systems that were very different from our peers. (I was a working musician and actor, so I had decent money compared to most teenagers. I had a couple of friends who were also working musicians or actors.) Weekends, people would bring their latest album acquisitions to one of our places, and the whole group would sit and listen. Rock, blues, jazz, classical, Eastern European Folk... Never had any problem with people staying quiet for a complete album side, don't remember anyone shushing anyone else. Might be that the various intoxicants that were involved had something to do with that.

[ednaz]

Just now, bluesman said:

 

I appreciate your knowledge and experience - your beer history is, of course, correct.  But beer is not a distillate, and I made no mention of or reference to beer.  I was responding to a comment about whiskey and wine.

 

Perhaps read the whole thing. Distilling spirits to drink was happening in Egypt second century BCE. An offshoot of the alchemistry focused distillation that had gone on for many centuries before.

 

[bluesman]

25 minutes ago, ednaz said:

Perhaps read the whole thing. Distilling spirits to drink was happening in Egypt second century BCE. An offshoot of the alchemistry focused distillation that had gone on for many centuries before.

 

Yes, indeed - and as I said in the first post, "...in Asia, they were distilling and drinking fermented rice and mare's milk as far back as 800 BCE", which was about 600 years before the second century BCE.

 

Whether the first booze was crafted in Asia or ancient Egypt is impossible to establish with certainty. But it was obviously at about the same time, and some authorities favor each as the "first".  It doesn't matter for our purposes.  I brought it up only because the suggestion was made by Ralf11 that the consumption of wine and Scotch in Japan represents "diffusion of our culture". My point was a correction of that erroneous assumption, since they were distilling alcohol in Asia for drinking 800 years before Christ. 

 

Distillation in Egypt prior to the 8th century BCE is documented as having been largely for purification of essential oils and components of fragrance.  They didn't drink it.  Maybe an Egyptian or two chugged a few shots a year before the first Asian got plastered. If so, I apologize.

[rando]

On 6/8/2019 at 2:28 PM, stuck limo said:

 

If people are going to these bars and expecting to hear the best vinyl (meaning, the actual platter) experience (and using digitally sourced vinyl), then they're not understanding the hobby or technology and are misinformed. I think mostly these bars are using older LPs that were NOT digitally sourced though, so I don't think it's that big of an issue

 

Instead of replying to the person you were replying to.  I'm going to attempt a highly similar message to you due the generalized use of "people" instead of distinctly specifying perceptions of who, what, and how. 

 

Circle back to the mid 90's when club DJ's were almost without exception cueing the latest hits on a fully digital system.  Exception being turntables spinning vinyl to a digital mixer on out to the floor.  35 years ago when vinyl fully crawled out of analog into new DDD recordings and the cooler kids started sitting around listening to vinyl outside the dark club soundsystem's. When social gatherings to hear newly cut good quality pressings of new music on vinyl was actually fresh and newsworthy, again.

 

What is essentially an advertisement, linked article, backed up with enough facts to seem trendy, for a retro mid 90's to 2000's theme bar.  Is aimed at the disposable income of what should now be stable adults with tastes matured well beyond their days of wearing glowing necklaces.  A big part of the musical heritage of which was based on cuts from classic vinyl chopped, scratched... into a techno beat.

 

Debating the connoisseur level, the snobbishness, the anything but positivity of a social gathering place focused on exposing their clientele to a reasonably high quality listening experience in surroundings it can be enjoyed at reasonable volumes within. Signals a lack of genuine interest and pet issues being cultivated. Curated playlists either comforting or expanding their clientele interests and awareness are what these places sell (other than trendy overpriced drinks).  Next week the same people behind this are possibly opening another venture to suck cash out of a different underserved audience primed to believe in the atmosphere they can create.  The more people drawn in with less of that image or common experience the more successful it has a chance of being.  Educated and capable of being devoted or simply interested at that moment.  

 

As somewhat of a footnote.  In all probability the highly intelligent musicians and engineers who basically lived out of crates of vinyl for a few decades integrated analog into digital long enough to gain some semblance of skill.  Digitally sourced LE vinyl is as much a high profit vehicle as chance to overcome the harsher digital sound for warmth more suitable to serious listening at home.  By serious people using audiophile level equipment for conversion to digital or playback in one or the other.  The same who listen to a lot of much lower quality analog recordings by lesser known, lower paid artists with a message popular music doesn't carry.

 

There are of course frivolous hyped examples that could be trotted out, always.  @bluesman snapshot of Japanese culture, music venues, and artistry unduly suffered through exposure to some.  I'd like place an addendum denoting the fact almost every turntable and mixer that was used worldwide is Japanese for the reasons and respect noted he ably descibed within. They are the reason anyonunder a givenagefully even considered spinning records.