Euphony OS w/Stylus player setup and issues thread

[austinpop]

2 minutes ago, bobfa said:

Status report from the last few days of setting up Euphony OS.

 

Communictions 

 

I have used the tech support system they provide with great results.   I have placed 13 tickets in the system and actually closed one myself.  Several of the tickets have been properly brought to a close.  We have at least two issues that will be fixed in the next release.  Their KB has at least one new entry and there will be more.

 

There is one hard issue for me.  They had not tested with two Roon instances Core and Bridge and there is an issue with that kind of setup (my standard setup) that will require a system software update from them.  I do not know if this will be in the next release, but I am working around this by running Squeezelite on my endpoint for now.  This should be in the next update and I have asked to be placed on an early release.  

 

We have had one remote access session that due to my network design we had to use TeamViewer.  (I kept their tech support up way too late; SORRY!)

 

Setup Status

 

So right now I have Roon Core running on my Xeon box and Squeezelite running on my NUC.  I am not running bridged.  I have both devices setup over fiber links to a Ubiquity switch.  I am migrating my network to Ubiquity.  I intend to test using the smart switch for isolation in the future.

 

Next Steps

 

I will be doing some listening tests this afternoon with the current system layout.  Over the next little bit I will also test in single box mode running Roon.  I will setup Roon Core on the NUC and listen.  I will then swap in the Xeon Server.  This will be done using the HDPLEX Power supply as it is the only supply I have that will run both devices.

 

Bob,

 

I've lost track of all the threads you've opened up, so apologies if this is the wrong place to ask some questions:

1. Does Euphony supply a ramroot equivalent? I.e. can you run the root partition on a RAMdisk?
2. If you're only interested in the OS, is it possible to skip all the Stylus "stuff?"
3. Is it possible to tweak files? For example, squeezelite.conf to change buffer settings?
4. Can you play with processor frequency?
5. Can you isolate cores?

Now regarding your experiments, when you describe your results, can you also please clarify the system:

1. Server:
   1. HW description: CPU, RAM, mobo etc
   2. PSU:
   3. OS used:
   4. OS in RAM?
   5. Music server: for example, Roon Core
2. Endpoint:
   1. HW description: CPU, RAM, mobo etc
   2. PSU:
   3. OS used:
   4. OS in RAM?
   5. Music server: for example, Roon Bridge

[austinpop]

2 hours ago, ArthurPower said:

The point is we are not trying to sell people two license or tell customers this is necessary if you want great quality computer audio. 

 

 

Arthur, why not offer a Roon Distributed Bundle of 2 licenses for the same price, so people don't have to choose. You can strip Sylus out of that bundle to justify the lower cost. That way, those who want to use a single server approach can continue to do so, AND you welcome the distributed folks into your ecosystem. Forcing the latter to buy 2 licenses just turns people off.

 

I know I want to try your solution, but my HW topology is already honed to be distributed, which currently means 2 licenses for $600. 

[austinpop]

14 minutes ago, Dev said:

There is "Check of update" in the menu but when I click it, nothing really happens.

 

My Euphony version: 20190214

 

Is there some other way to update ?

 

You need to “Complete Installation” first. Settings... top of page

[austinpop]

7 minutes ago, Poldi said:

 

@mikicasellas: "good" to see that someone else is having this problem. Željko wrote me that I was the only one so far and that he doesn't know the solution to this problem.

But I guess if others are having the same problem and nobody here posts a solution, Euphony should take a deeper look into it.

 

Knowing how flaky USB sticks can be, did you try a different stick? Just wondering.

[austinpop]

11 minutes ago, mozes said:

For those who are using Squeezelite as an end point in Euphony, there are "Expert Settings" available now at the bottom under settings. 

 

 

Yes.

 

Only enter the -b and -a parameters here, not the full cmd line.

 

This version also has network bridging enabled as an option.

[austinpop]

18 minutes ago, mozes said:

Can you pls share an example. Thanks

 

[austinpop]

2 minutes ago, mozes said:

Thanks I guess the optimal settings will be system dependent i.e. CPU and RAM

 

Yes, of course. This is only for those who want to experiment, and know the pitfalls and risks.

 

The key is to know how much physical RAM is in your box. Then go to "Temp/CPU" to check memory utilization. Based on that, you get a sense of free memory, so you know what you have to play with. In the example above, we are allocating:

1. 2GB for input stream
2. 2GB for output buffer
3. 50MB for ALSA buffer

Feel free to experiment, and post findings!

 

Also, if you set a value in the freq fields, it unlocks a frequency monitor in the Temp/CPU panel. If you just want to know what the current frequency is, (Kenneth), just set a small value like 800MHz in the Min box and look at the freq monitor.

 

FYI - frequency settings do not seem to work on the i7DNBE at the moment. It's probably due to the versions of kernel and cpupower Euphony uses, as frequency setting works fine in AL.

[austinpop]

15 minutes ago, HeeBroG said:

 

Hi Rajiv,

 

Forgive my ignorance but why does 2GB have fewer digits than 50MB?

 

Geoff

 

Because:

• -b has units of kilobytes
• -a has units of bytes

Go figure!

 

Reference: http://manpages.ubuntu.com/manpages/trusty/man1/squeezelite.1.html

 

-a <params>
              Specify parameters used when opening an audio output device.  For ALSA, the  format
              <b>:<p>:<f>:<m>  is  used where <b> is the buffer time in milliseconds (values less
              than 500) or size in bytes (default 40ms); <p> is the  period  count  (values  less
              than  50)  or size in bytes (default 4 periods); <f> is the sample format (possible
              values: 16, 24, 24_3 or 32); <m> is whether to use mmap (possible values: 0 or  1).
              For  PortAudio,  the  value  is simply the target latency in milliseconds. When the
              output is sent to standard output, the value can be 16, 24 or 32, which denotes the
              sample size in bits.

       -b <stream>:<output>
              Specify internal stream and output buffer sizes in kilobytes.

[austinpop]

3 minutes ago, Dev said:

 

I assume you are using Euphony on the Streamer as well ? Does the server also runs Euphony ?

 

Yes, I am running trial instances of Euphony on both the Roon server, and the Squeezelite endpoint.

[austinpop]

Just now, Dev said:

 

are you able to use native DSD or are they still DoP ?

 

Its strange that even Roon's DoP conversion on Euphony i7 NUC shutters.

 

Not sure what you mean? I have always used DoP for DSD content, both with Roon Bridge and Squeezelite, and that remains unchanged on Euphony.

 

[austinpop]

1 minute ago, Dev said:

 

I generally use native DSD since my DAC supports it. When I tried LMS/Squeezelite sometime back, native DSD worked fine but I don't remember if Roon/Squeezelite supported native DSD (I remember its limited to DSD64). I just now tried Euphony/Roon running on i7 NUC and AL/Squeezelite on CJY NUC and looks like DSD playback strategy is always DoP. When I play DSD content in Roon, converting to Dop shutters which is very strange since the i7 NUC is much more capable. 

 

Sorry - what do you mean by "shutters?"

 

Sounds like you may have a config issue, as DoP encapsulation is not a CPU intensive process at all, and even an ARM or a Celeron can handle that without breaking a sweat, let alone a mighty i7!

[austinpop]

1 minute ago, Dev said:

 

What I meant by shuttering is a sequence of brief pause followed by brief playback.

 

Yes, Dop conversion (encapsulating in a pcm packet) works on a very low profile h/w. Thus I am bit surprised. On this very NUC when running AL, Roon is able to upsample to DSD256, let alone DoP. Not sure if its an issue with Euphony or not.

 

Ah - what I would call stuttering. Potato potahto.  

 

DSD over DoP works fine for me on Euphony with the NUC i7 endpoint. 

[austinpop]

18 minutes ago, Dev said:

 

Yeah, that thingy 🙂

 

I think you upgraded to the newer version. Do you remember if it worked with the older version of Euphony ? I am running release version 20190214.

 

Did not try DSD on the old build, but it definitely works for me on 20190403.

[austinpop]

7 minutes ago, Dev said:

 

Sorry, spoke too soon. Roon shuttering/stuttering still exist. I wasn't playing DSD content earlier and hence thought it was fixed. I think it could be due to usage of Wifi on the streamer side and squeezelite using large buffers which might cause Roon to transfer large data over the network. I will try with AL on the server and see if I can reproduce the same issue.

 

It could be. I've never got wifi to work reliably at higher sample rates like 176.4 (in your case) or heaven forbid, DXD. This is one of the reasons I stick to wired Ethernet, as I have a lot of hi-res content.

 

You're correct, the network behavior with SL with large buffers is very asymmetric. See my analysis: https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/54933-audiolinux-and-nuc-troubleshooting-and-tuning/?do=findComment&comment=904234

 

 

If you can try wired ethernet, see if that eliminates the issue. If so, you will need to adjust your Wifi components to achieve better throughput.

[austinpop]

4 hours ago, ted_b said:

If Stylus is an enhanced version of MPD then does this mean Euphony built an integration step to use Stylus as a front end to HQPe, or can I do this with MPD too (say, in AL)?

 

Euphony insist that Stylus is not just a disguised MPD, but written from scratch with it's own music database, library manager and player.

[austinpop]

Just wanted to update this thread on some interesting Euphony/Stylus features coming down the pike.

 

@romaz and I have had detailed interactions with Željko Vranić, the lead developer of Euphony. He and their team have been very receptive to our ideas and recommendations. You've already seen the rollout of the outcome of some of these discussions in the latest release, in the form of the support for bridging, and the addition of expert parameters for Squeezelite command line options, and for setting CPU frequency.

 

Very soon, the expert options will be expanded to allow ethtool command line options. This would enable overriding auto negotiation of speed, and setting 100Mbps for an Ethernet interface.

 

As many of you have found, the Stylus player in Euphony has significantly superior SQ to Roon. Of course, functionally, Stylus does not match the sophistication of Roon's library management and UI. For many of us, Roon library management has become a non-negotiable, as there is just nothing like it out there. As currently implemented, Stylus is a monolithic, standalone player, that does not have a remote interface. We asked Željko whether they could make Stylus an endpoint that could work with Roon.

 

Well, to our delight, it looks like they have done it. We've tested a prototype endpoint implementation of Stylus - let's call it StylusEP for now. The final released name is TBD. Like squeezelite, StylusEP looks like a Squeezebox to Roon.  This enables both distributed configurations (Roon core on server, Stylus EP on endpoint), as well as standalone (Roon core + StylusEP).

 

In terms of SQ, Roon core + StylusEP approaches, but doesn't quite match the SQ of Stylus. Since there is no control of what Roon Core does internally, the team couldn't implement 100% buffering, for example, the way standalone Stylus does. Still - the SQ of the prototype Roon core + StylusEP I tested was head and shoulders better than standard Roon, and even better sounding than Roon core + Squeezelite with large buffers. It also did not suffer the glitches that have plagued those of us who've tried to live with Roon + squeezelite. 

 

The team needs to do some more testing, but I've been told that they hope to ship this in a GA release by the end of the month.

 

This is pretty exciting stuff!

 

 

[austinpop]

1 hour ago, ted_b said:

Great work, as always.  Does this portend a possible Roon->HQP solution on Euphony, since Stylus player is already able to talk to HQP, or am I getting this too kludgy?  Or does this already exist, without Stylus involved?

 

Hi Ted,

 

I haven't personally tested this, but I think you're already covered. A Euphony installation can already run "Roon + HQPlayer" and NAA modes. The former can cover the standalone case, or if you're distributed, you run the former on the server, the NAA on the endpoint, and configure HQPlayer to point to the NAA.

 

At least in principle.

[austinpop]

23 hours ago, motberg said:

 

I hope this will lead to a easy to configure dual-PC version of Stylus (hopefully requiring a single license though....)

 

I have no interest in Roon, but have tested Stylus briefly and think within a dual-PC configuration, it could possibly unseat Windows Server/JPlay in my systems for ease of use as well as sound quality.

 

 

Stylus is a monolithic player that runs on the standalone machine that is attached to the DAC. As such, there is no such thing as dual PC Stylus.

 

StylusEP is a subset of the full Stylus. It is the playback piece, onto which has been added remote support via SlimProto, the Squeezebox protocol. This requires a SlimProto-supporting music server like LMS or Roon Core.

 

Now if you could persuade Euphony to take the server piece of Stylus and graft SlimProto on it, you would have a Stylus Server, which in conjunction with StylusEP would give you a distributed setup.

 

I’m happy with Roon, so feel no need to advocate for this.

[austinpop]

24 minutes ago, mozes said:

If LMS can feed StylusEP, then this is great news. LMS is free so anyone can try it.

 

I haven't tried this, but in theory it should work.

[austinpop]

2 minutes ago, ray-dude said:

 

I have been assuming that the skipping and freezing we hear going from Roon core to large buffer Squeezelite was related to Roon and how it interacts with SL (Roon has to jump through all sorts of hoops to do the multi-zone thing...I assumed this is what was messing up large buffer end points).  Do you have a sense of what they needed to do to get Roon to play nice with a large buffer end point?

 

Can't wait to hear the beast!

 

I don't, exactly. Željko did mention he had to fine tune his interactions with Roon to make everything work. The key is to trick Roon into feeding you large chunks of the music while providing the feedback Roon expects, without getting out of sync. Unfortunately, that did make 100% pre-loading a "bridge too far." In practice, the only glitch I see from time to time is that "seeks" - i.e. moving further ahead in a song via the slider - can trigger a skip to the next track. It's nowhere as bad as with SL with large buffers.

[austinpop]

Yes, we were testing a private “dev” build. The StylusEP feature will ship in the next public release by end of month, I’m told.

[austinpop]

4 hours ago, ray-dude said:

Thanks to you and Roy for the advocacy and pushing things forward!

 

Having been in the software delivery business in real life, let me tell you it’s a lot more fun setting requirements than delivering!  

[austinpop]

2 hours ago, seatrope said:

@austinpopRajiv, as it stands right now, is StylusEP subject to the same restrictions as Squeezelite, as far as DSD playback is concerned? WIll it work with DSD256 files?

 

Thanks!

 

Yes. The 192 sample rate limit is imposed by Roon Core. It is built into their Squeezebox support, so applies to any device that presents as a SlimProto endpoint. This means DSD is limited to DSD64.

 

Again, this should not apply if you use LMS as a server, I just haven’t actually tested StylusEP with LMS.

 

I am at High End Munich this week, so won’t be very responsive.

[austinpop]

Some examples on using the expert fields...

1. SL parameters example to set buffer sizes: -b 2097152:2097152 -a 52428800:4::
2. ethtool parameters to override auto-negotiation and set a particular interface to 100Mbps: eth1 speed 100 duplex full autoneg off
3. Min/Max CPU freq. parameters: use units like MHz or GHz, for example: 400MHz  3200MHz

[austinpop]

1 hour ago, Crustacean said:

@austinpop, at the risk of cluttering your inbox, I wonder if you (or anyone else here) has thoughts on the viability of using Adrian's TLS DS-1 as an endpoint running Euphony/StylusEP. Zeljko told me that generally a NUC can be booted with Euphony, and StylusEP run, off of a USB stick, so it should work in theory, but Adrian, while encouraging, wasn't sure and said I would just need to try it to find out. (The reason I am considering punting to a prebuilt reclocked NUC, despite the higher price tag, is that I just don't have the time for the DIY route right now, but am eager to get aboard with the new StylusEP, and I'm not aware of other options besides the DS-1.)

 

Thanks for any thoughts, and generally for your heroic generosity and good spirit in everything you do on here (that goes for others that have shared so much, too).

 

Hi Crustacean,

 

Since I no longer have a DS-1 in my physical possession, I cannot confirm this with 100% certainty, but I can think of no reason why Euphony would not work on a DS-1, since the latter is basically a reclocked NUC7PJYH. In any case, you can download a trial version of Euphony and just try it.