Mytek Stereo 192

[Esprit]

if you want to come here to install windows... you will be my guest

[petecare]

I believe you are commingling 3 distinct concepts.

 

1. Bypassing the Mixer: This merely requires Hog Mode, also called Exclusive Access. This is possible without bypassing the normal layers of Core Audio. For example, Pure Music also enables Hog Mode.

 

2. Lowest level in Core Audio: This is what Audirvana Plus calls "Direct Mode" in which A+ communicates directly with the DAC's device driver, bypassing Core Audio.

 

3. Integer mode: This means the data format transmitted to the DAC is integer rather than floating point. It is possible only if the DAC's device driver supports integer format data. Core Audio supports integer mode in Snow Leopard but not in Lion or Mt Lion. Therefore, integer mode in Mt Lion requires A+ Direct Mode. Pure Music does not bypass Core Audio, so it can do integer mode in Snow Leopard but not Lion or Mt Lion.

 

I don't have a Mytek DAC, but I believe others on this forum have reported that the DICE driver for OS X used by Mytek (and Weiss) is compatible with features 1 and 2, but not 3.

 

Hi Bob

I must read again your post to understand what you exactly mean...(I'm french and technic language is difficult)

 

I let you know that my words on the integer mode was not mine but it's that Damien write on his manual page 14.

For more information by Damien :

http://www.amr-audio.co.uk/large_image/MAC%20OSX%20audio%20players%20&%20Integer%20Mode.pdf

 

P.S A+ is integer mode compatible with A+ and Mountain Lion

[Esprit]

In my humble opinion: if I have to pay 200-300 €/$, to get the integer mode, buying an interface, I can pay such a price for driver or sw upgrade (I save the money for the cables and I can use the DAC clock, via FW and USB, which is the best).

 

Michal, think about it

[padam]

Dear All,

I got to borrow a Mytek 192 DSD for a few days to compare against my Lavry DA11

 

It sounds promising but simply I can't get it to work properly.

I am under Win7 and I do not have a FireWire input so I am limited to USB2.0 or USB1.1 (which is fair anyway since I use the Lavry that way as well)

 

Downloaded the USB2.0 drivers and it refused to play the files in any other sample rate than 48KHz even though ASIO writes the sample rate correctly. I set the sample rate to the correct one in the dedicated driver, I see that it shows up on the display as well. And when it starts playing it goes back instantly despite being sent in the right sample rate. I really don't understand why is that happening.

So I try USB1.1 which does seem to work fine in that it recognized and plays the files in the correct sample rate. But in every 30 seconds or so I get a little clipping. I tried Wasapi, ASIO, changing the buffer etc. and it refuses to go away.

 

What should I try?

 

Thank you in advance.

[ted_b]

I set the sample rate to the correct one in the dedicated driver,

 

What do you mean by this? There is no need to set anything in the driver software. Are you using JRiver? If so, set to ASIO, Mytek ASIO USBPAL driver, and bistream "DSD" (not DoP)....otherwise WASAPI-Event style, USBPAL driver and bistream "DoP" (not DSD).

 

What drivers are you using 1.33.10? What firmware?

[padam]

What do you mean by this? There is no need to set anything in the driver software. Are you using JRiver? If so, set to ASIO, Mytek ASIO USBPAL driver, and bistream "DSD" (not DoP)....otherwise WASAPI-Event style, USBPAL driver and bistream "DoP" (not DSD).

 

What drivers are you using 1.33.10? What firmware?

 

Everything is the current version, I may not have set the ASIO output correctly. It seems to be ok now with USB2

 

Thanks!

[jamesg11]

Hello All

 

This includes a blunt statement "This enables to achieve very high sound quality." From reactions of some Mytek owners I see they are worried they are missing something important. I want to assure these users they still own the best value in DSD DACs, and magic beads and green pens maybe not be needed to continue fully enjoying music through this DAC.

 

I was curious if:

 

a) Anybody actually tried this integer vs float sound, heard a difference and can describe well what they are hearing?

 

b) If proponents of this can provide some tangible scientific explanation how does this actually "improve" the sound? I mean what gets improved and how?

 

As a designer of the DAC with over 20 years of experience of doing so, I like to investigate every claim that would help our DAC sound better. Being firmly grounded in science and experience of controlled critical listening, I want the claims to be explained, so I can understand what we have may missed and address it in future firmware/drivers or new designs. I do not dismiss every claim outright, but if one agrees there is no paranormal world involved in computer playback than we should be able to eventually explain every such claim.

 

We are currently working on understanding a similar claim of JPlay piggybacked on JRiver claiming to "improve" something without defining what it really is.

 

Comments with a solid merit are very valuable.

 

Best Regards, Michal at Mytek New York

 

Hmmm, this is provocative language from Michal, maybe even inflammatory! ("magic beads and green pens") - to those mac & Mytek users who crave access to Integer mode, & certainly to Damien P of Audirvana who has penned a dissertation on the audio value of Integer mode ("paranormal"?; obviously unread). There may well be good business/ manufacturing etc reasons to not go with an Integer fix, but please avoid this sort of careless denigration.

[mytek]

It's 75 Ohm on main outs and 10 Ohm on headphones. Controlled by resistors, can be changed if you can solder.

 

Hope this helps.

 

best Regards, Michal at Mytek

[mytek]

Hmmm, this is provocative language from Michal, maybe even inflammatory! ("magic beads and green pens") - to those mac & Mytek users who crave access to Integer mode, & certainly to Damien P of Audirvana who has penned a dissertation on the audio value of Integer mode ("paranormal"?; obviously unread). There may well be good business/ manufacturing etc reasons to not go with an Integer fix, but please avoid this sort of careless denigration.

 

Hello All

 

I do not mean to offend at all, but did want to challenge the statement that seems to be lingering here for sometimes without resolution and only growing larger. The same goes for a lot of other assumptions about computer audio that have to be proven yet to have any merit. While general idea of reducing computer noise by eliminating moving parts , dedicated USB psu etc. make sense and certainly can't hurt, one should also try to make sense of all these claims. At the moment the integer issue comes down to reducing number of cpu cycles by a tiny bit, it is long way to showing that this has any significance. What about computer cycles that a Core Audio driver needs vs our driver which is more efficient? If a claim is made regarding sound quality, please back it up, at least give us hypothesis why would this matter. Same goes for Jplay magical improvements. I mention magic beads in the context of what a non scientific audiophile can be potentially asked to do to tweak his computer. There are so many parts in there, everything can be spinned the same way...

 

Now, having said this I have read Damien paper long time ago and have great respect for him and what he has achieved with Audirvana. We do collaborate from time to time on DSD issues etc, again my hat down to Damien. Obviously, simpler is usually better and Audrivana's beauty comes from this. However, one should read paper carefully before concluding that "integer mode sounds better". The paper is a collection of logical hypothesis how to reduce computer noise which may affect DAC performance, but does not offer any quantified evidence, which is fine as long as they remain hypothesis. Any designer who builds an USB DAC has to evaluate all of these and paper is extremely helpful in that. For example in Mytek DAC we have carefully separated USB and DAC grounding paths to redirect any computer noise that may travel on USB cable away from the DAC chip. We have a very efficient JET PLL to clean up data clocks and we use separately powered clock for the DAC conversion. There are zilion factors that matter, integer vs float is just a drop on the bucket of computer EMI problems. And because it is, we need evidence that this indeed can be heard or measured.

 

I hope you can understand me now. In any case , since public seems to be asking for integer, I will ask Rigisystems if it is possible. It's their driver licensed to us.

 

Thx, Michal at Mytek New York

[mytek]

Dear All,

I got to borrow a Mytek 192 DSD for a few days to compare against my Lavry DA11

 

It sounds promising but simply I can't get it to work properly.

I am under Win7 and I do not have a FireWire input so I am limited to USB2.0 or USB1.1 (which is fair anyway since I use the Lavry that way as well)

 

Downloaded the USB2.0 drivers and it refused to play the files in any other sample rate than 48KHz even though ASIO writes the sample rate correctly. I set the sample rate to the correct one in the dedicated driver, I see that it shows up on the display as well. And when it starts playing it goes back instantly despite being sent in the right sample rate. I really don't understand why is that happening.

So I try USB1.1 which does seem to work fine in that it recognized and plays the files in the correct sample rate. But in every 30 seconds or so I get a little clipping. I tried Wasapi, ASIO, changing the buffer etc. and it refuses to go away.

 

What should I try?

 

Thank you in advance.

 

Can you try setting it up like this:

 

http://mytekdigital.com/support_docs/stereo192-dsd_dac_software_setup_guide_v1.0.pdf

 

Michal at Mytek New York

[mytek]

Dear Michal,

 

I think the most pressing concern is for you to update your driver to allow double DSD for MAC users. I would love to have more information about when the promised update will come?

 

Greatly enjoying the DAC nevertheless.

 

All the best,

 

Morten

 

We are testing new beta- should be soon, next month Regards M

[mytek]

Hi Michal,

Mytek 192 DSD, as you know, is "integer" on UBS1 (limited to 96/24).

Get an Apple, download Audirvana Plus, and listen to...

 

P.S. Please, can You tell me how use the internal sync in the S/PDIF options?

Thanks

 

Sure I'll try. SPDIF on int sync: feed your source with wordclock coming from Mytek and slave the source to it.

 

Regards M

[mytek]

But, you will still need a decent USB cable.

 

Paul

 

Good question what is a good cable. Since we are only interested in async data with minimum noise, the cable should probably focus on noise, rather than things like jitter . M

[mytek]

Can only give experiential data. I am an early adopter of Audirvana, played music with my Mini and a Wavelength Wavelink feeding a Wadia 861i for a year, then ordered a Mytek DSD 192 pre-production from Vintage King...I also started this thread. Not qualified to provide a lick of technical support, am a finance guy with negatory engineering qualifications. Have played guitar and performed for 40 years and have good ears...I know what live music sounds like and have been turned off by many "audiophile" products that appeal to folks for other reasons that their ability to approximate real music.

 

All that being said, used Audirvana with Wadia and then Mytek, fed with the Wavelink. Integer Mode provided a significant increase in musicality and natural timbre versus the same gear sans Integer Mode. The USB converter Wavelink connected by SPDIF to the Mytek was significantly more musical that the Mytek connected directly to the Mini with the same USB cable. Why, my guess is that with the Wavelink, I used Integer Mode and of course, direct connection to the Mytek did not support Integer Mode. I also listened to the Mytek/Wavelink combo with and without Integer Mode engaged, and Integer Mode was significantly more musical/natural sounding.

 

Not hard to test, if you trust your ears. Get a converter that is Integer Mode capable and try it as I did.

 

Will let the tech guys who populate this thread give there engineering rationale. Also, remember that Damien, the Audirvana creator offered to assist manufacturers with guidance on how to alter drivers to enable Integer and Direct Modes. One of the cool connectivity aspects of places like this.

 

Thanks for a great product. Pumped that you are exploring this functionality.

 

Interesting you'd use spdif rather than USB2. Have you tried to compare these two? SPDIF is jitter prone while USB2 is not.

 

Regards, Michal at Mytek

[Esprit]

For example in Mytek DAC we have carefully separated USB and DAC grounding paths to redirect any computer noise that may travel on USB cable away from the DAC chip.[...]In any case , since public seems to be asking for integer, I will ask Rigisystems if it is possible. It's their driver licensed to us.

Hi Michal, three questions:

 

1) You wrote "grounding separation" but what about "the galvanic isolation"?;

2) You wrote "USB (grounding)" but what about "Firewire (grounding)"?;

3) You wrote "Rigisystems (USB)" but what about "TC Connect (FW)"?;

 

Have a good weekend.

[57gold]

Actually, use FW with Mytek. Seemed slightly more transparent than USB or SPDIF w/converter, or at least on par. So I sold the converter.

 

Agree with Esprit, please ask TC for driver update for FW. Believe that Weiss uses it and there are many users of that equipment that would also benefit. Thanks.

[Miska]

if you want to come here to install windows... you will be my guest

 

Nice thing is that it is pretty easy to install Windows on side of a Mac OS X using BootCamp and switch between the two.

 

One of the best ways to compare two vastly different environments with exactly same hardware.

 

It is even possible to add Linux as a third option to the mix, but that needs a bit more hacking.

[Esprit]

Nice thing if you use windows, if you like windows, if you know how prevent problems with windows.

Never had a single problem since 1988 with MacOS

Miska, if you like the warm of the Mediterranean Sea you can come here...

[tailspn]

Miska, if you like the warm of the Mediterranean Sea you can come here...

 

I'll come set it up for ya. I LOVED Cinque Terre!

[Esprit]

I'm in Western Liguria

Buona serata.

[tailspn]

I'm in Western Liguria

Buona serata.

 

Just around the bend, and the best olive oil in the world, IMHO

[mytek]

Hi Michal, three questions:

 

1) You wrote "grounding separation" but what about "the galvanic isolation"?;

2) You wrote "USB (grounding)" but what about "Firewire (grounding)"?;

3) You wrote "Rigisystems (USB)" but what about "TC Connect (FW)"?;

 

Both USB and FW have separate ground planes. This basically means that any return currents generated by USB/FW receiving modules and EMI from computer float down this separate GND path and are kept away from DAC chip. If properly designed and laid out this approach typically takes care of 99% of such problems. Galvanic isolation is a different approach that allows complete separation of grounds so theoretically in case of async USB it should help to stop 100% of EMI coming from computer.

 

I see the following design problems with feeding the DAC from a computer via USB:

 

1) EMI interference caused by computers- this includes all the "beyond bit perfect" categories:, integer, SOTM USB boards, SATA filters, JPLAY, design of computer itself etc. Once incoming EMI is addressed all these tweaks become obsolete. Mytek DSD DAC has been pretty well designed for this.

 

2) Digital processing circuitry of the DAC interfering with the DAC chip and master DAC clock. This is the core of art of designing a DAC. We think we did a good job with this too. There really are no external (user) tweaks to help with this.

 

As a designer of a DAC I'm pretty certain it's possible to design a DAC which sounds the same with any computer and any USB cable , with float , integer, with Jplay and without, etc.

 

While "beyond bit perfect" won't certainly hurt, I prefer to spend $$ on making the DAC completely immune to EMI issues, rather than trying to limit them on computer side. I do it with a hope that customers would appreciate not having to spend another $1000 on USB cables and other computer tweaks to fix what DAC designer have missed.= and get the DAC to its full sonic potential.

 

See if this tests make sense to you:

 

Computer Audiophile - JRiver Mac vs JRiver Windows Sound Quality Comparison

 

While I'm at it couple of facts regarding sound comparisons:

 

1) source louder by as little as 0.2dB seems to sound better (always match the levels!)

2) There is a 20-30% placebo in medicine AND in audio

 

Best, Michal at Mytek New York

[mytek]

To continue my earlier thoughts, just to make sure I'm well understood: I do not claim to have tested and figured out everything when it comes to " beyond bit perfect" . By this I mean it's possible that there is some phenomena in the signal chain that may have been missed. Nevertheless , again if we agree to exclude paranormal, one can expect all these issue to be sorted out eventually and explained in future scientific papers. We may not yet understand that correlation to sound quality like, we did not fully understand all digital audio problems (dither /jitter) when Compact Disc was introduced in 1982.

 

So, let's see what we can find out-

 

Best Regards, Michal at Mytek New York

[jamesg11]

Thanks for this Michal - very interesting indeed! So, you don't for example see necessarily significant improvements with a MacMini FW into Mytek by adding external PSUs or iUSB etc, as well as the various software & cable enhancement approaches?

[elcorso]

 

2) There is a 20-30% placebo in medicine AND in audio

 

Best, Michal at Mytek New York

 

Pardon me, Michal, but there is a very recent study that confirmed medicine works thanks to a 60% placebo effect. I don't know in audio...

 

Then pals take your medicines with faith!

 

I'm sorry if out of thread, but for me is always interesting the power of the mind.

 

Regards,

 

Roch