Is Digital Audio A Mature Science?

[sandyk]

3 hours ago, Jud said:

Just wondering if anything happening on the digital side in two competent DACs, for example, makes a difference in the sounds of their respective systems once the conversion to analog occurs.

Jud

 If Digital Audio was a mature science we would be able to use any digital front end of our choice, export the data via any choice of output , including USB and SPDIF , into the same DAC and analogue stages ,and they would sound identical, even with the files played by different software.

 Even the power supply used for the Digital storage area where the music is saved makes a contribution to the sound heard at the speakers.

If you have room inside your PC,try powering the OS or music storage SSD via a low noise and low impedance PCB such as the cheap 40uV noise voltage regulator from ebay as several other members have already done, and reported improvements.

If you are using a suitable case I would be happy to send you a spare  +5V JLH PSU PCB to try for yourself .

 

" Troll" is living in a pure Fantasy theoretical world !

 

Alex

[Ralf11]

competent usually means jitter is minimized, almost by def'n

 

not sure re filters or filter choices (which I hate - set it and forget it)

 

otherwise, I'd say no (except maybe 512k etc. which again is an analog problem or results in solving one...)

 

so, kinda, sorta...

[Confused]

21 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

I'd consider leakage to be an analog problem.  I mean digital filters, modulators, jitter.  Would they matter sonically, granted that the digital side of the DAC is competently designed?

Were you not one of the people that were able to pick out the sonic differences between prototype ultraRendus, for which the only difference was the clock?  This would suggest the digital side does make a difference, even between two correctly functioning devices delivering bit perfect data.  My apologies if my memory is playing tricks here.

[esldude]

14 minutes ago, sandyk said:

Jud

 If Digital Audio was a mature science we would be able to use any digital front end of our choice, export the data via any choice of output , including USB and SPDIF , into the same DAC and analogue stages ,and they would sound identical, even with the files played by different software.

 Even the power supply used for the Digital storage area where the music is saved makes a contribution to the sound heard at the speakers.

If you have room inside your PC,try powering the OS or music storage SSD via a low noise and low impedance PCB such as the cheap 40uV noise voltage regulator from ebay as several other members have already done, and reported improvements.

If you are using a suitable case I would be happy to send you a spare  +5V JLH PSU PCB to try for yourself .

 

" Troll" is living in a pure Fantasy theoretical world !

 

Alex

So using your criteria there is no mature audio technology of any kind, and there never can be?

[Jud]

1 minute ago, Confused said:

Were you not one of the people that were able to pick out the sonic differences between prototype ultraRendus, for which the only difference was the clock?  This would suggest the digital side does make a difference, even between two correctly functioning devices delivering bit perfect data.  My apologies if my memory is playing tricks here.

 

They were prototype ISO REGENs, and there were more differences than just the clock.  I think the USB PHY chip may have been different also, and that's not really what I was thinking of when I asked the questions (not that you'd be incorrect in thinking of it as the "digital side," it just wasn't what I thought about).

 

I felt I heard quite clear differences between the two, as did the other blind tester and the designer and builders (non-blinded), but I'm not going to claim my ears are reliably correct.  I'm quite happy to use them in many instances myself, but don't urge anyone else to take what I heard as objective truth.

[Jud]

16 minutes ago, sandyk said:

Jud

 If Digital Audio was a mature science we would be able to use any digital front end of our choice, export the data via any choice of output , including USB and SPDIF , into the same DAC and analogue stages ,and they would sound identical, even with the files played by different software.

 Even the power supply used for the Digital storage area where the music is saved makes a contribution to the sound heard at the speakers.

 

Hi Alex.   

 

But you could say the same about turntables.  Power supply for the cutting lathe or for that matter tape machine might easily make a difference.  And as for front end, well, there are a seemingly infinite variety of cartridges.

 

OTOH, I suppose my own criterion that pretty well boil down to "Does the digital side audibly affect the analog output" would also mean that all other audio technologies aren't mature either.

 

So maybe a better criterion is how sure we can be that there won't be a very significant qualitative improvement coming along in the future.  I doubt that will happen with turntables or tape.  Is it possible with digital?  I certainly don't know.  I'd like to think there'd be some chance.   

[kumakuma]

6 minutes ago, Jud said:

So maybe a better criterion is how sure we can be that there won't be a very significant qualitative improvement coming along in the future.

 

This is line with the Wikipedia definition of a "mature technology":

 

Quote

 

A mature technology is a technology that has been in use for long enough that most of its initial faults and inherent problems have been removed or reduced by further development. In some contexts, it may also refer to technology that has not seen widespread use, but whose scientific background is well understood.

 

One of the key indicators of a mature technology is the ease of use for both non-experts and professionals. Another indicator is a reduction in the rate of new breakthrough advances related to it—whereas inventions related to a (popular) immature technology are usually rapid and diverse, and may change the whole use paradigm—advances to a mature technology are usually incremental improvements only.

 

 

[sandyk]

6 minutes ago, esldude said:

So using your criteria there is no mature audio technology of any kind, and there never can be?

 

 No consumer source, whether Analogue or Digital is ever likely to sound exactly as the record producer heard it.

 There are way too many variables before even going into identical Output Amplifiers and speakers ,where even the room itself and the listening position can cause marked differences. Even with Phono, it also comes down to the accuracy of, and types of components in the RIAA EQ section of the  Preamplifier, with an Opamp implementation sounding a little different to a well done discrete implementation, and the phono cartridge itself causing major differences .

 Then of course,. there is the never ending arguments about which sounds better, Solid State or Vacuum tube., which is even used in a few DACs !

[sandyk]

8 minutes ago, Jud said:

But you could say the same about turntables

Hi Jud

 I just did (briefly) in a reply to Dennis .

 

 Kind Regards

Alex

[esldude]

4 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

 No consumer source, whether Analogue or Digital is ever likely to sound exactly as the record producer heard it.

 There are way too many variables before even going into identical Output Amplifiers and speakers ,where even the room itself and the listening position can cause marked differences. Even with Phono, it also comes down to the accuracy of, and types of components in the RIAA EQ section of the  Preamplifier, with an Opamp implementation sounding a little different to a well done discrete implementation, and the phono cartridge itself causing major differences .

 Then of course,. there is the never ending arguments about which sounds better, Solid State or Vacuum tube., which is even used in a few DACs !

I thought this would be clear.  Mature does not mean perfect.  It doesn't mean we have achieved complete life-like reproduction of music.  

 

78's were a jump forward from anything made previously.  They were never perfected.  They did reach a point of maturity as in limitations of the format were about as well done as possible and couldn't much be improved without being something different. 

 

LPs were another big step forward over 78's and also became mature so no huge improvements were going to happen within the LP.  

 

RTR was better than either, but inconvenience and cost prevented it becoming big for music distribution.  It also became mature. 

 

Digital was a big step forward and is currently a mature musical format.  

[Hugo9000]

Sorry, @kumakuma, but by this part of the wikipedia definition 

Quote

advances to a mature technology are usually incremental improvements only

 

it's very clear that digital audio cannot be a mature technology, as we have recently witnessed the birth of a new world thanks to MQA!  Such a leap can't in any sense be called an incremental improvement haHaHA!!   

 

I couldn't help myself, sorry  

[Jud]

14 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

This is line with the Wikipedia definition of a "mature technology":

 

 

 

Any resemblance between what I say and an authoritative source is purely coincidental.   

[sandyk]

2 minutes ago, esldude said:

Digital was a big step forward and is currently a mature musical format.  

 It is obvious from the huge number of contribution in other areas of the forum that many members do not agree with your definition of a mature format.

 Many members are reporting huge improvements ,which is not the hallmark of a mature format.

[sandyk]

5 minutes ago, Hugo9000 said:

Sorry, @kumakuma, but by this part of the wikipedia definition 

 

it's very clear that digital audio cannot be a mature technology, as we have recently witnessed the birth of a new world thanks to MQA!  Such a leap can't in any sense be called an incremental improvement haHaHA!!   

 

I couldn't help myself, sorry  

 

 

Unfortunately, what you are joking about is a wee bit too close for comfort or complacency !

[fas42]

2 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

a lot depends on what "anything happening on the digital side" really means

 

e.g. is it just bit transfers?

 

or does it include possible leakage from the PS powering the D>A chips, etc. to elsewhere (like small signal analog areas)

 

Precisely. It's analogue circuitry which 'performs' the digital processing - because, all circuitry is analogue. While one remains in the "digital world", that is, we are only worrying about the signal as the carrier of perfectly preserved information, all is fine. There are always straighforward means of guaranteeing exact replication and transfer, no matter how difficult the journey is - as an example of the latter, the signals from distant space probes have a huge battle to get through, because of terrible signal to noise ratio conditions. Yet, the information does make it ...

 

All bets are off if the output is to be sampled, and assessed, as an analogue representation, in dynamic circumstances; that is, the digital circuitry is operating at the same time, and close by, the analogue focused areas.

[Miska]

19 minutes ago, esldude said:

I thought this would be clear.  Mature does not mean perfect.  It doesn't mean we have achieved complete life-like reproduction of music.  

 

78's were a jump forward from anything made previously.  They were never perfected.  They did reach a point of maturity as in limitations of the format were about as well done as possible and couldn't much be improved without being something different. 

 

LPs were another big step forward over 78's and also became mature so no huge improvements were going to happen within the LP.  

 

RTR was better than either, but inconvenience and cost prevented it becoming big for music distribution.  It also became mature. 

 

Digital was a big step forward and is currently a mature musical format.  

 

I think putting all digital into same basket is like putting all analog into same basket.

 

Petrol and diesel cars may be mature technology, but hybrid and electric cars are not.

 

Same way in audio technology things have been changing. Class-D amps, digital microphones (you have these in your mobile phones and they natively output DSD-like bitstream), etc. Some things are more visible than others. Computers and streaming platforms have changed things also quite a lot.

 

Then for new things there are always early adopters, and then those who don't think anything new is needed and current status is as perfect as anything can get.

 

[Ralf11]

46 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

This is line with the Wikipedia definition of a "mature technology":

 

 

 

is Wikipedia a mature source of definitions??

[fas42]

The lack of maturity can be said to occur in the  poor real world ability to achieve the theoretical performance of digitally stored and processed source - the numbers say that two rigs should always sound the same, and should always sound like the recording, and only the recording. Which, almost , everyone knows is a nonsense.

 

So, at some point or points along the playback chain journey, gremlins enter the picture. And if one does the right sort of experiments, it's easy to hear this happening. A better level of maturity is achieved when these gremlins are addressed; and then one is much closer to the specified capabilities of digital sound.

[Hugo9000]

2 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

 

is Wikipedia a mature source of definitions??

Well, it meets at least one criterion:  the improvements to Wikipedia's entries ARE incremental at best!   

[fas42]

58 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

 No consumer source, whether Analogue or Digital is ever likely to sound exactly as the record producer heard it.

 There are way too many variables before even going into identical Output Amplifiers and speakers ,where even the room itself and the listening position can cause marked differences. Even with Phono, it also comes down to the accuracy of, and types of components in the RIAA EQ section of the  Preamplifier, with an Opamp implementation sounding a little different to a well done discrete implementation, and the phono cartridge itself causing major differences .

 Then of course,. there is the never ending arguments about which sounds better, Solid State or Vacuum tube., which is even used in a few DACs !

 

Alex, the interesting thing I find as the overall capability of a setup is improved is that all the aspects you mention become less and less relevant, or noticeable. The progression is that the 'power' of the recording, the musical event captured, rises to ascendency, completely dominates the situation - it takes a major conscious effort to focus on parameters like you mention; they are now the 'noise', and are buried under the intensity of the illusion.

[kumakuma]

1 hour ago, sandyk said:

 Many members are reporting huge improvements ,which is not the hallmark of a mature format.

 

Only true if the adjective "huge" is used in a trumpastic way...

[esldude]

1 hour ago, sandyk said:

 It is obvious from the huge number of contribution in other areas of the forum that many members do not agree with your definition of a mature format.

 Many members are reporting huge improvements ,which is not the hallmark of a mature format.

It is the Hallmark of something else.

[sandyk]

44 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

Only true if the adjective "huge" is used in a trumpastic way...

 

 Are you sure you don't mean ' Trumplastic"  ?

[esldude]

1 hour ago, Miska said:

 

I think putting all digital into same basket is like putting all analog into same basket.

 

Petrol and diesel cars may be mature technology, but hybrid and electric cars are not.

 

Same way in audio technology things have been changing. Class-D amps, digital microphones (you have these in your mobile phones and they natively output DSD-like bitstream), etc. Some things are more visible than others. Computers and streaming platforms have changed things also quite a lot.

 

Then for new things there are always early adopters, and then those who don't think anything new is needed and current status is as perfect as anything can get.

 

I agree with this. Analog tech was employed in New and inventive ways for more than a century. Digital is like that now. But the basic digital music tech for playback is mature imo.

[sandyk]

3 minutes ago, esldude said:

It is the Hallmark of something else.

 

In some cases, perhaps the improvements are overstated a little , but nevertheless the results are still WAY better than the majority of the regular " bits are bits , and nothing else matters"  brigade are listening to in their own systems.