Fas42’s Stereo ‘Magic’

[fas42]

Low cost gear has to be worked on, to get the best out of them. But the same applies to the high priced stuff - and do you want to do significant surgery on that "investment"? The reasonable thing is to get answers from items where mistakes and missteps don't matter; which is why I have evolved to doing things the way I currently am.

[fas42]

Just in the Lush^2 thread, by FileMakerDev,

 

Quote

My system sounds sublime. Top to bottom no exaggeration, plenty of highs and dynamic slam... I would describe it as focused but warm. Voices and instruments are precisely placed, but, somewhat paradoxically, seem to float in the air in an extremely pleasing manner. And this is across a wide spectrum of musical styles and eras (recordings going back to the 1950s).

 

This is what optimised playback brings to the table - happens every time, irrespective of the make up of the gear; one is listening to the raw sound of the recording, largely bereft of the 'signature' of the playback chain.

[Teresa]

On 2/21/2019 at 2:28 PM, fas42 said:

...A competent setup allows one to completely hear "through the speakers" - you connect completely to the performance that was in front of the microphones, say; your mind is discarding all aspects of the sound image that are caused by just having two boxes doing their thing in the room. And the drivers and speaker cabinet are largely irrelevant to this behavior, unless one listens to more extreme volume levels, or is highly focused on deep bass being 'correct'...

 

On 2/21/2019 at 2:54 PM, semente said:

Wait 'till you listen to 'em through a good pair o' speakers. 😉

 

On 2/21/2019 at 3:13 PM, fas42 said:

...I've listened to too many expensive speakers sounding awful. Wilsons in particular come to mind here..

 

Fas42, evidently you were not able to hear "through the Wilson Audio speakers". That fact disproves your point that speakers are the least important since your mind could not discard them. I also don't like the sound of Wilson Audio speakers. However, I have heard many megabuck speaker systems that sound wonderful and present an image of real instruments and voices in a real acoustic space spread out so one does not hear sound coming from the actual speakers, what you call invisible speakers. BTW precise speaker placement is how you get speakers to become invisible not soldering interconnects.

 

21 hours ago, Paul R said:

But all in all, I would suggest speakers are much more important - at least to the listener -  than any other component of an audio system.

 

Paul, I agree that speakers are the most important and that a system is only as good as its weakest link.

[fas42]

Teresa, the point is not to hear through the speakers, if the system is not performing well. Rather, if you can effortlessly hear through them, that's the marker of the setup working well - some speakers will be 'better' at exaggerating flaws earlier in the chain, and Wilson is one brand that's particularly good at it. So, it's not that the speakers have a problem, but that they are shining a stronger light on anomalies in the playback.

 

Precise speaker placement may help for some listening situations - but if the audible artifacts that are caused by having poor connections are eliminated, then one can be very casual in every aspect of the physical and listening positioning, and, the sound still "works".

[esldude]

10 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

IME best bang for the buck comes from dealing with areas most people don't regard as so important. I have about 8 sets of speakers here, most of which are much more "audiophile" than the Sharp units. But I'm not using them because they are too bulky, heavy for how I've got the rig - which is effectively on a workbench. Think of those cheap speakers being used in the same way as small studio monitors, "to hear what is going on" - I will add, I did a round of listening to the available active monitors, in the pro shops, some years ago - and was surprised to hear how bad they were, especially the big name brands - the Sharp boxes are vastly superior to listen to, because the driving chain is being sorted out, than any of the 'right' names.

 

Voicing is another expression for choosing your poison - one is fine tuning the audible distortion so that it is 'nicest' for yourself. I'm not interested in that, I want to hear what's on the recording - and the rig is actually in the way of me getting that - it has to completely disappear in the auditory sense; I have no interest in it apart from being a means to an end.

 

It turns out that it's much harder to get the electronics to 'vanish'; speakers are relatively easy, so I'm not so fussed about them.

No one else seems to manage your vanishing speakers trick, your hearing the recording thru such speakers there is no need for MCH trick etc etc.  And you've been unable to show anyone else how to follow your path.  It is the one and only Frank show and apparently only Frank can hear it. 

[audiobomber]

I never re-soldered any connections and my speakers vanish. You cannot tell their positioning from the listening chair with your eyes closed and well-recorded stereo sound.

 

I've had really bad connections and I can't hear the difference. I have bad connectors right now between my preamp and power amps. I am using a .1uF cap to roll of the main power amps at 80Hz. This is a temporary situation, and I had to use substandard RCA inputs between my Cardas cables and the power amps. The connection is so loose that the RCA plug falls out if you move it. Despite that, the setup sounds awesome, best I've ever had, and I've tried many ways to integrate my speakers and subs. 

 

Another example, I have to tighten my speaker connections periodically because sometimes they loosen. I have never noticed any sonic effect, the sound is the same as long as there is contact. I just do it every month or so as a preventive measure.

[Teresa]

12 hours ago, fas42 said:

Teresa, the point is not to hear through the speakers, if the system is not performing well. Rather, if you can effortlessly hear through them, that's the marker of the setup working well - some speakers will be 'better' at exaggerating flaws earlier in the chain, and Wilson is one brand that's particularly good at it. So, it's not that the speakers have a problem, but that they are shining a stronger light on anomalies in the playback.

 

Precise speaker placement may help for some listening situations - but if the audible artifacts that are caused by having poor connections are eliminated, then one can be very casual in every aspect of the physical and listening positioning, and, the sound still "works".

 

Fas42 do you have a reading or comprehension problem? I clearly stated that my floor standing speakers are "sonically invisible", the image extends from about one foot outside the boundaries of the left and right speakers with a large nice stable fantom center image where no speakers are located. With orchestra music it forms a very believable orchestra shell. It was done with painstakingly accurate speaker placement. If you have not done this you do not have "sonically invisible" speakers. Precise speaker placement helps for all listening situations, not some. 

 

In post 178 I said "evidently you were not able to hear "through the Wilson Audio speakers". That fact disproves your point that speakers are the least important since your mind could not discard them. I also don't like the sound of Wilson Audio speakers. However, I have heard many megabuck speaker systems that sound wonderful and present an image of real instruments and voices in a real acoustic space spread out so one does not hear sound coming from the actual speakers, what you call invisible speakers. BTW precise speaker placement is how you get speakers to become invisible not soldering interconnects

 

If you have poor connections you will have substandard sound quality, this has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with making speakers disappear. The fix is to throw away those poor interconnects that come with audio equipment and get some with connectors that have a tight fit. This is one of the very first things most audiophiles do. We have went way beyond your baby steps and nonsense so-called cures to problems we have already fix. I am quit sure my large wooden floor standing speakers carefully placed are more invisible than your plastic speakers and that my system, as inexpensive as it is sounds more like the real thing when playing music recorded in a natural performance space.

 

Speakers are the least perfect of all audio products and sound very different from one and another, plus many speakers are amplifier dependent. Speakers will not all sound the same if you cure all the problems in your audio system, that is just one of the many facts you do not understand. Thus, speakers are the most important and an audio system is only as good as its weakest link. Making speakers sonically disappear is relatively easy, accurate timbre, sonic realism and accurate reproduction of the original recording space are harder and this is what you should be aiming for. Apparently you still have a long ways to go.

[fas42]

6 hours ago, audiobomber said:

I never re-soldered any connections and my speakers vanish. You cannot tell their positioning from the listening chair with your eyes closed and well-recorded stereo sound.

 

There will alway be ways of achieving good results without going to the levels I do - I pointed to FileMakerDev, just above, who I'm sure hasn't done the things I mention ... there are many roads to Rome ...

 

With what I call competent sound, you cannot tell the positioning from anywhere in the listening room.And the material doesn't have to be well-recorded - throw on a 1930's swing orchestra scratchie, and it still happens.

 

Why I get that is because I go to the painstaking extra lengths ...

 

6 hours ago, audiobomber said:

 

I've had really bad connections and I can't hear the difference. I have bad connectors right now between my preamp and power amps. I am using a .1uF cap to roll of the main power amps at 80Hz. This is a temporary situation, and I had to use substandard RCA inputs between my Cardas cables and the power amps. The connection is so loose that the RCA plug falls out if you move it. Despite that, the setup sounds awesome, best I've ever had, and I've tried many ways to integrate my speakers and subs. 

 

Another example, I have to tighten my speaker connections periodically because sometimes they loosen. I have never noticed any sonic effect, the sound is the same as long as there is contact. I just do it every month or so as a preventive measure.

 

Yes, you can get away with sub-standard integrity if key parts are of a high enough standard. If you want a car that can go 160 mph you can buy a Ferrari; or, get hold of a very ordinary vehicle, then stick a very powerful engine in it - voila, 160 mph! Now, if you had to drive at this speed down an unknown road, which car would you prefer?

 

IOW, it's the overall attention to fine detail that delivers what really counts - excellent sound in every situation.

[fas42]

6 hours ago, Teresa said:

 

Fas42 do you have a reading or comprehension problem? I clearly stated that my floor standing speakers are "sonically invisible", the image extends from about one foot outside the boundaries of the left and right speakers with a large nice stable fantom center image where no speakers are located. With orchestra music it forms a very believable orchestra shell. It was done with painstakingly accurate speaker placement. If you have not done this you do not have "sonically invisible" speakers. Precise speaker placement helps for all listening situations, not some. 

 

Teresa, yours is one method for creating invisible speakers. But it's not the only method.

 

6 hours ago, Teresa said:

If you have poor connections you will have substandard sound quality, this has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with making speakers disappear. The fix is to throw away those poor interconnects that come with audio equipment and get some with connectors that have a tight fit. This is one of the very first things most audiophiles do. We have went way beyond your baby steps and nonsense so-called cures to problems we have already fix. I am quit sure my large wooden floor standing speakers carefully placed are more invisible than your plastic speakers and that my system, as inexpensive as it is sounds more like the real thing when playing music recorded in a natural performance space.

 

It has everything to do with it. Our hearing system is highly attuned to giveaways in the sound - and if the hint is there that the sound is 'fake' then our minds immediately make a judgement - "it's just a hifi system ...". And poor quality connections create a 'smell' in the sound, which once you learn to recognise, is so easy to pick.

 

Improving the plug side of things is not going to solve the issues, if the socket side is inadequately done - it takes two to tango. Which is why I eliminate that as an area of weakness completely.

 

6 hours ago, Teresa said:

Speakers are the least perfect of all audio products and sound very different from one and another, plus many speakers are amplifier dependent. Speakers will not all sound the same if you cure all the problems in your audio system, that is just one of the many facts you do not understand. Thus, speakers are the most important and an audio system is only as good as its weakest link. Making speakers sonically disappear is relatively easy, accurate timbre, sonic realism and accurate reproduction of the original recording space are harder and this is what you should be aiming for. Apparently you still have a long ways to go.

 

Teresa, you get everything if the system is optimised. And what you especially get is the ability to appreciate every single recording you get hold of - a competent rig doesn't create "good" versus "bad" recording piles.

 

As an album which is immensely revealing of the strengths and limitations of a rig, I use this regularly, yesterday in fact - and it pointed to where I'm having issues, very starkly,

 

 

[fas42]

15 hours ago, esldude said:

No one else seems to manage your vanishing speakers trick, your hearing the recording thru such speakers there is no need for MCH trick etc etc.  And you've been unable to show anyone else how to follow your path.  It is the one and only Frank show and apparently only Frank can hear it. 

 

All incorrect of course. You carefully choose to ignore my posts where I point this out in detail, so I'm not going to bother doing it again ...

[fas42]

Couldn't go past this post on the Lush^2 thread,

 

 

This is a good example of how doing the precisely necessary adjustment in a system is so critical - yes, it's merely adjusting the configuration of the shielding of a cable, which should have low impact. But, it makes a 'miracle' difference, in this case ... and that's how it works: the focus of the highly zoomed binoculars is now spot on, and what was a blur seconds before is full with fine detail - merely by a tweaking of the fine distance control.

 

It's the "snapping into view" effect that happens when a rig reaches the good zone - one has to persevere with lots of "mushiness" in the experimenting beforehand, comfortable in the knowledge that it is just part of a "no pain, no gain!" process.

[fas42]

Playing with Paul's beta DeltaWave software, already seeing the value of having good tools available - in the 8th copy samples provided by Dennis, it's easy to eyeball very significant distortion in the treble; something that the normal specs would indicate is impossible ... 

[sandyk]

13 minutes ago, fas42 said:

Playing with Paul's beta DeltaWave software, already seeing the value of having good tools available - in the 8th copy samples provided by Dennis, it's easy to eyeball very significant distortion in the treble; something that the normal specs would indicate is impossible ... 

 

 While this software may be useful in helping to diagnose some kinds of problems, it can't replace good listening skills and high quality playback systems, as evidenced by the fact that some were unable to readily  pinpoint the differences, and a few even preferred the added distortion of the 8th copy., which perhaps suggests the possibility of their systems lacking a little in the upper HF area, or the masking of very low level HF detail by excessive wideband system noise?

[fas42]

The step forward is to identify what is happening in a captured waveform, which tells us what the electronics are getting wrong - matching what the ears are hearing. 

 

From there, better methods for sorting systems can evolve. 

 

My phone line's a disaster - the noise drowns out everything ... 

[sandyk]

11 minutes ago, fas42 said:

The step forward is to identify what is happening in a captured waveform, which tells us what the electronics are getting wrong - matching what the ears are hearing. 

Frank

That is incorrect.

Unless you have access to the original MASTER recording ,it is simply not possible to definitely tell what is wrong with the waveform. You can  only try and make educated guesses.

As for your phone line where noise drowns out everything, I presume that you are talking about downloaded Digital Audio files ?

 If so, esldude and quite a few others will insist that if the saved 1s and 0s are correct, then it shouldn't matter one iota  !!!

 

Alex

[fas42]

Alex, we're not worrying about the master file - rather whether some circuitry is fault free in processing the input... And I'm not seeing clean handling... 

 

Along those lines, I'm looking at some Gearslutz's files, which have gone through a single DAC/ADC loop, and you can see plenty of misbehaviour above 14kHz. 

 

My Telstra line's a pile of poo at the moment - a couple of wires resting against each other, vaguely touching each other, somewhere out there. 

[fas42]

To add to the Gearslutz's story, looked at a recognised combo, by MSB, in DW - and the matching is quite brilliant - makes it obvious why 'better' converters are so superior. 

[sandyk]

5 hours ago, fas42 said:

My Telstra line's a pile of poo at the moment - a couple of wires resting against each other, vaguely touching each other, somewhere out there. 

https://mrtelco.com/blog/top-5-common-phone-line-faults-affecting-landline-adsl

[fas42]

Thanks Alex, I've been the rounds - we have 3 handsets here, and plugged straight into the Telstra wall socket using 2 different short cable lengths, nothing else in the picture, the crackling is savage. A call out a year or two ago found that the link in the pole outside was a mess, was thrown in the bin, and new box inserted - so that part should be OK - shall see what eventuates ...

[fas42]

A thought popped in ... if you have to listen, carefully, to a rig to be able you tell whether it's good ... then it ain't ...

 

A competent system makes its presence felt by virtue of sending the message, "How could the music I'm listening to sound any other way?" - the sound is projected into the space in the same way as the sun does its thing outdoors; magnificently 'invisible' in the lighting of the world you experience.

[sandyk]

1 hour ago, fas42 said:

Thanks Alex, I've been the rounds - we have 3 handsets here, and plugged straight into the Telstra wall socket using 2 different short cable lengths, nothing else in the picture, the crackling is savage.

Frank

 Do you have only one socket ?

 Have you taken the cover off and checked for green Verdigris ?

A common cause is the use of a wet mop when cleaning.

[HIFI]

 

I never re-soldered any connections and my speakers vanish. You cannot tell their positioning from the listening chair with your eyes wide open.  Frankly .... I suggest you keep your eyes open  😳

[fas42]

The speakers vanish no matter where you are sitting, and or standing - that's the point... 

[HIFI]

17 hours ago, fas42 said:

The speakers vanish no matter where you are sitting, and or standing - that's the point... 

This is so far from wrong . . . . In too many ways.

 

This is the goofiest thread in the entire forum.

 

 

[fas42]

It's only "goofy" because achieving the necessary level of SQ is so rare ...

 

I'll use a visual analogy - you know those stereoscopes, like View-Master: you put a couple of images in the right place, and they look Wow! when you look at them in exactly the right way ... well, that's how conventional stereo operates. Now, if you happen to go to the actual place where the stereoscope images were captured, and move around in the location; that's how convincing playback comes across - sort of a slight difference ... .

 

This perceived illusion occurs because the brain 'chooses' to be fooled; but you can't force it to happen because you want it to be so, or by filling yourself with alcohol, etc - the only solution, with stereo, is to attain a very high standard of 'transparency'. Which currently is only achievable by doing a lot of DIY optimising.