Fas42’s Stereo ‘Magic’

[4est]

11 hours ago, fas42 said:

Tin pot is just a term for an amplifier that has poor current drive capability, that starts to display major, obvious distortion once it needs to output over say 1 watt of power. Which is often what horn systems use ... .

 

The point I'm making is that the electronics need to work in a "zone of comfort" - that the levels of interference being generated by the operation of all the circuits, for listening at "enthusiastic" levels, doesn't cause significant degradation of SQ. Obviously the Magnepans need a vastly more capable amplifier than the Avantgardes, because of the difference of sensitivities - the former is an example of needing a monster amp, the latter where the tin pot variety can do the job; examples of what I was stating.

 

I have heard the most expensive Magnepan model sound pretty awful, driven by a monster tube amp - because the playback chain was not well sorted; and more recently the cheapest one do a particularly nice job of getting the sound right - because the electronics were set up a dealer who obviously understood what was important.

What do you consider a "monster tube amp", and how do you know it was the "playback chain" and not simply the amp? Contrary to what many say, my experience has been that Magnepans need gobs of current and few tube amps can pull that off.

[Ralf11]

https://www.synthtopia.com/content/2007/11/15/the-most-powerful-tube-amplifier-ever-built/

[fas42]

11 hours ago, 4est said:

What do you consider a "monster tube amp", and how do you know it was the "playback chain" and not simply the amp? Contrary to what many say, my experience has been that Magnepans need gobs of current and few tube amps can pull that off.

 

Try this for size, https://vtl.com/products/power-amplifiers/stereo-amplifiers/s-400-series-ii-reference-stereo-amplifier. Weighs 113Kg, and three blokes had a mighty struggle getting it up the stairs to the demo room, .

 

The playback chain is all the electronics from the source reading mechanism, right through to the speaker. What actually causes SQ issues could be an individual component, or combination of some of them, or that the operation of one generates interference which causes another to subtly misbehave. This is when one needs to start experimenting, to try and diagnose where the problems arise - and then apply some cost effective changes, or tweaks to resolve.

 

The amplifier that drove the cheap Magnepan well was a Sanders Sound Magtech unit - which has some clever engineering inside on the power supply side; a thumbs up on this one.

 

[fas42]

5 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

https://www.synthtopia.com/content/2007/11/15/the-most-powerful-tube-amplifier-ever-built/

 

I note the VTL Siegfried, the monoblock version of the above stereo unit, can pump out 650 watts into 5 ohms - a touch more grunt, could one say?

[sandyk]

42 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

I note the VTL Siegfried, the monoblock version of the above stereo unit, can pump out 650 watts into 5 ohms - a touch more grunt, could one say?

 

You would need to turn the air conditioning on at full blast in summer which would drown out low level detail unless it was used in Sound Reinforcement applications or to entertain the cows down in the bottom paddock. 

 

[fas42]

Yes, 2 Siegrieds running at full power would consume 3kW from the mains, according to the spec's - your energy supplier would be beaming from ear to ear as he prepared the bill ...

[4est]

10 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

Try this for size, https://vtl.com/products/power-amplifiers/stereo-amplifiers/s-400-series-ii-reference-stereo-amplifier. Weighs 113Kg, and three blokes had a mighty struggle getting it up the stairs to the demo room, .

 

The playback chain is all the electronics from the source reading mechanism, right through to the speaker. What actually causes SQ issues could be an individual component, or combination of some of them, or that the operation of one generates interference which causes another to subtly misbehave. This is when one needs to start experimenting, to try and diagnose where the problems arise - and then apply some cost effective changes, or tweaks to resolve.

 

The amplifier that drove the cheap Magnepan well was a Sanders Sound Magtech unit - which has some clever engineering inside on the power supply side; a thumbs up on this one.

 

And so then you are recommending a $33,000 USD amp to power Magnepans. I cannot help wonder how many of those amps have ever been sold, not to mention that the amps will cost more than the speakers. Even still, they will likely not drive the speakers the way, say, my JC 1s would. Magnepans need current and damping factor to get them going. I am not against tubes at all, but it is horses for courses. My point in asking (silly me) is because even with an ARC D-250 my Magnepans sounded anemic. Yeah, I know. It is only 250 watts and only weighs 70 kilos. I am sure there might be some tube amps that would work well, but they aren't a dime a dozen. Your advice is useless once again.

[fas42]

Not recommending anything, merely answering your question as to what I considered a "monster tube amp".

 

The Magtech units are something I would "recommend", on the solid state side of things - because I heard one get the job done, .

 

Regarding ARC D-250s, I heard a very nice TT setup 3 decades ago using these, the classic Goldmund, ARC, Infinity brand combo - at its best, this delivered highly competent SQ - so, panel speakers and tubes can be made to work.

[Kimo]

On 7/7/2019 at 8:16 AM, 4est said:

What do you consider a "monster tube amp", and how do you know it was the "playback chain" and not simply the amp? Contrary to what many say, my experience has been that Magnepans need gobs of current and few tube amps can pull that off.

 

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/rogers-high-fidelity-ehf-200-mk2/

 

112 watts into 4 ohms.  Has no problem driving the Alta Monitors, which are nominally rated at 4 ohms and 87 db.  That being said, I have never tried it on a panel speaker.  

[fas42]

Just noting this review of the Dutch & Dutch 8c speakers, https://www.stereophile.com/content/dutch-dutch-8c-active-loudspeaker-system,

 

Quote

The 8c's subjective tonal balance—likely related to its controlled cardioid dispersion, which minimized colorations created by room reflections—made it easy for me to "hear into" ensembles and ambiences and projected aural images of individual voices and instruments as well as any speakers I've heard, including planar models. Unlike planars, the D&Ds didn't throw the soundstage forward — instead, it began at the plane described by the speakers' front baffles and extended deep behind them. The result was less obviously impressive but seemed more honest.

 

This presentation is exactly how it should be for competent playback, a consistent behaviour irrespective of the makeup of the rig; something I've noted for decades.

 

The only downside appears to be a possible lacking in the treble compared to other actives the reviewer is familiar with - my concern here would be with how the speaker was mounted; Sound Anchors stands were used, and I note that their models range from junky to quite reasonable - how well the speakers were stabilised would be critical at this quality level, so I would take this factor into account when reading of how they subjectively performed.

[Kal Rubinson]

14 minutes ago, fas42 said:

Sound Anchors stands were used, and I note that their models range from junky to quite reasonable - how well the speakers were stabilised would be critical at this quality level, so I would take this factor into account when reading of how they subjectively performed.

I do not recall the model which was provided by D&D.  I can tell you they were much heavier than the speakers.

[fas42]

I note on the Dutch & Dutch website, that all their images are of a single pillar stand, https://dutchdutch.com/8c/#all-in-one, seemingly always the same model. This is a type of stand that I would never, ever use, irrespective of how heavy it was; the ability of this type of design to deal with vibration is very poor - I would put improving how it was mounted at the necessary height in the room as a number one priority.

[Kal Rubinson]

The Sound Anchors stand had 2 pillars and was impressively rigid.   I appreciate that having at least three makes for a significant geometrical advantage (just as it does for chairs).

[fas42]

Currently a bit of discussion about improving the the way the Kii Three speakers are mounted, including increasing mass loading of the supporting structure, stands typically. This post nails the benefits quite nicely,

 

Retrieval of finer and finer detail, with no downsides, less "ringing" , is the gain - you get more of the recording, and less playback chain signature. An especially valuable plus is that "bad" recordings, , become so much more approachable - one is moving ever closer to being able to listen past technical issues, and connect fully, emotionally, with the musical event that was captured.

[fas42]

Seeing the reaction to my posts about the ability of a truly accurate system to draw out the best from even the 'worst' recordings is showing how there is a "Great Wall of Misunderstanding" that needs to be dealt with, that will probably take quite some time to fully conquer, if progress is to be made in audiophileland - an essential breakthrough in thinking has to occur for an individual, where they realise that the recording is always at the top of heap, and that the playback setup is a servant to the needs of extracting what's been captured, and replaying it faithfully.

 

[fas42]

There's a bit of interest in Steve Guttenberg at the moment, , and so found this video,

 

 

Quite a nice account of some of the subjective qualities that a competent rig delivers - just have to make allowance for the usual, fundamental audiophile mistake of attributing special qualities in the sound, to the type of speakers used  - of course, it's the overall integrity of the particular setup that allows the content of the recording to come through largely undamaged, which then delivers the "specialness" in the perceived SQ.

 

If all the good things mentioned can be ticked off, then your system is getting the sound right - which demonstrates how lacking most rigs are, failing to deliver what has actually been captured in the recording.

[fas42]

The Lush^2 thread is a great resource for pointing out how critical getting all the key weakness under control - one simple misstep is enough to undo "everything", .

 

Latest post is a good example,

 

 

Quote

After about a half hour of enjoying this I decided to give JSSG360cubed another shot (just a matter of reconnecting the red wire on the A side). The difference was not subtle. The sound stage collapsed and the magic vanished. Hard to believe that one tiny change could make such a significant difference.

 

Yes, hard to believe ... but such is the nature of the game when trying to extract the maximum from replay of digital source material ...

[fas42]

Just felt in the mood, after perusing some threads, to again emphasise why people have it "all wrong" - the conversation is always, always, always about how some component or addition or tweak makes the "sound better" - in the sense that somehow a magical distortion is being applied to what's on the recording, "to make it better than it really is" ... ummm, no ...

 

You see, it's always about Subtraction ... never Addition - your goal is to remove defects in the perceived sound - and then the Light Can Shine Through, .

 

How can I tell if I have "defects in my sound"? - Pretty damn easy, actually; just put on a recording that makes you cringe with the awfulness of the SQ ... right there, you have all the material you need to pinpoint where issues need to be sorted - the big trick is to nail all the various causes of the unpleasantness in what you're hearing - which are there because your playback system is not up to scratch!

[fas42]

Just came across this clip, on the Audio Federation YT channel, which does a nice job of demoing decent playback - not quite clear where the recorder was, because the video was spliced, but the sense of the presentation is on the mark,

 

 

I note that some other clips of straight Audio Federation setups, on this channel, are not particularly musical - they use Audio Note equipment, and I have never yet heard rigs using this brand sound interesting ...

[fas42]

Again and again and again one trips over the audiophile belief that their own system is magical, so special, that it reveals everything that's 'wrong' with various recordings - having certainly suffered from aspects of this thinking myself in the early years, and then having the poo piled on top of me when it became clear that I was wrong ... every single time ... I've given up on retaining such an attitude. It's a wonderful feeling of freedom, knowing that it's your own rig making the SQ shitty - because it means that at some time down the track it can be made to evolve to a good enough standard, so that finally the jewels within a particular recording can be revealed ... .

[fas42]

On 9/6/2019 at 1:26 PM, fas42 said:

Again and again and again one trips over the audiophile belief that their own system is magical, so special, that it reveals everything that's 'wrong' with various recordings - having certainly suffered from aspects of this thinking myself in the early years, and then having the poo piled on top of me when it became clear that I was wrong ... every single time ... I've given up on retaining such an attitude. It's a wonderful feeling of freedom, knowing that it's your own rig making the SQ shitty - because it means that at some time down the track it can be made to evolve to a good enough standard, so that finally the jewels within a particular recording can be revealed ... .

 

...

[fas42]

Got a call from N. yesterday, the audio friend - would have had a round today, but we're tied up. He's just spent time on the vinyl side - he aims to keep the analogue and digital playback working at comparable levels, and realised that moves made many years ago to optimise the phono amp side of things were not the best choices - constantly evolving one's take on what's important, in the light of efforts elsewhere, is always worthwhile, 😜. So, lots of little changes - and now much happier .. the "musicality", "bloom" has lifted significantly, he feels.

 

Will be hearing what's changed shortly - hopefully, not 2 steps forward combined with 2 steps back, 😄.

[fas42]

People lash out when their belief system is threatened; perfectly understandable, especially when nearly everyone else around one echos how one has learned to view matters.

 

It took N. up the road years to let go of much the usual audiophile viewpoint - it helps that he has a friend who chases "best sound!" by performing the usual rituals; such as buying better and better speakers - I think the latter is now in his, "Magico phase", 😜. So N. gets to hear how the SQ is gyrating wildly, all over the show - currently, it's not too good ... needs "extra, extra good recordings!" to show what might be possible, if the stars are in alignment ... 😉

 

One of the you beaut things when we have a session is that he runs the playback source on complete random shuffle - go from orchestral track, to old Oscar Peterson, to David Bowie, to Pet Shop Boys, to Sarah Vaughan, to Led Zep; every few minutes, a complete change of pace - the sound world is transformed. And we stop when something doesn't click - "Hello, this track is showing an issue ..." ... and start discussing, considering what might be causing the more obvious anomaly, that the particular track is shining a strong light on.

[fas42]

Just to comment on a reaction or two, to my 'praising' an "old Yamaha CDP" - I have no need to chase "latest ideas" for improving SQ; the equipment has been good enough for decades to provide convincing sound - but what is nearly always missing is the attention to detail that is required for optimum sound. A top of line unit from a solid manufacturer will usually have a lot more of that effort put into it, to differentiate it from  its lesser siblings - I recall that at the time there were 4 models in the range, at least in Australia.

 

There seems to be a desire to believe that only the newest stuff is able to extract greater detail, give "more of the picture" - this is nonsense, of course; only what is on the recording can ever be revealed, and so long as the system doesn't trip over itself, in any area, this will be the limit of what can be achieved. And that "limit" ain't half bad ... 😜.

 

The last audio show I went to, a few years ago, showed that the standard has at least lifted to the point where there were present half a dozen rigs that couldn't be immediately dismissed. The "good ones" demonstrated good tone, and weren't obviously failing in some area - but what they nearly all displayed was still a lack as far as retrieving the "full picture"; only the Bryston setup couldn't be faulted - this indeed showed exemplary behaviour, where I could pick nothing negative in the sound. IOW, the latter was revealing what was on the recording, and leaving no sense of a playback chain signature - a recording I knew well sounded exactly like my memory of it.

[fas42]

ST is up to his old tricks, pulling my latest post on the "True to life recording? ..." 🙂.

 

I was responding to his belief that "magic" can't happen with playback - but of course it can; it just requires a good enough rig ... a favourite of mine in this respect is the Living Voice systems, so I looked up couple of reviews of them in action - this came up quickly, http://www.theaudiobeat.com/equipment/living_voice_vox_olympian_vox_elysian.htm, and it contains all the usual superlatives.

 

A couple of key sections are these,

 

Quote

They’re not just better, they’re different too, representing a step change in the listening experience that moves us away from audio systems (with their familiar and readily identifiable flaws) into a realm that is much more akin to the sense and sensibilities of the live event -- not indistinguishable, but much, much closer, certainly in terms of meaning, structure and emotional impact.

 

Quote

If the aim of recording and replaying a musical performance is to transport that experience, the emotional power, instrumental weight, the sense and subtle chemistry of that event, complete and intact, through time to another location, then regular listeners to live music know just how far we are from that goal. Well, folks, we just got a whole lot closer -- closer than I’ve ever experienced, closer than 30 years of doing this job have left me thinking was even possible.

 

And that, folks, is what it's all about ... you see, this is what's on the recording; and it does deliver a "true to life" experience ... but unless the right measures are taken, well, it ain't gonna happen ...