Fas42’s Stereo ‘Magic’

[pkane2001]

5 minutes ago, fas42 said:

The killer when the SQ gets good enough is static behaviour. Electrical charge builds up, or creates some type of noise background which disturbs operation enough to be audible. And it occurs in the weirdest ways, which just do not make sense. Of course, this will drive objectivists crazy, but something as nonsensical as a single bit of plastic touching another bit of plastic can disrupt SQ - checking for this is part of the process of getting best sound.

 

Even a beginner engineer would suspect improper grounding, Frank. Nothing to get crazy about. I'm sure that long extension cords dragged through living areas isn't helping much with static build-up.

[Racerxnet]

52 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Even a beginner engineer would suspect improper grounding, Frank. Nothing to get crazy about. I'm sure that long extension cords dragged through living areas isn't helping much with static build-up.

 

Also the fact that the longer the extension cord, the less current supplied to the amplifier if the wire diameter is the same.

[kumakuma]

11 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

I take it you haven't read any posts in the Edifying Journey thread?

 

I'm confused. I can't find any pictures of your equipment in that thread. 

 

I'm especially interested in seeing the following because I'm having a hard time visualizing it:

 

Quote

a picture of stock standard Edifiers stuck on some old, slighty heavy speakers, which are stuck to a slab of concrete, which is sitting on a floor with carpet - with a whole lot of paper on top of the lot, stretching, say, to the ceiling

 

[Teresa]

9 hours ago, fas42 said:

Well, it's a journey - hence the title. I assume that the system is perfect, first up - and then let it, slowly or quickly, disappoint me...

 

At this point I would take it back for a refund. And purchase something that doesn't disappoint.

[fas42]

10 hours ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Even a beginner engineer would suspect improper grounding, Frank. Nothing to get crazy about. I'm sure that long extension cords dragged through living areas isn't helping much with static build-up.

 

With everything in the system being double insulated - and an optical being the only link between the two pieces of equipment ... how interesting ...

 

Yes, it's easy to create a second problem, when compensating for the first - can be a frustrating round and round getting the balance right, if all that's being tried is a workaround. Best solution is for the engineering to be right in the actual equipment itself - add-ons are ultimately always a kludge  ... however, we are talking about the audio world here 😁.

[fas42]

9 hours ago, Racerxnet said:

 

Also the fact that the longer the extension cord, the less current supplied to the amplifier if the wire diameter is the same.

 

Not relevant here - the main one used is a special I cobbled up years ago, to be used on a 2.4kW garden shredder used way at the end of the property; it took me a bit to find a supplier of a high enough amperage lead, so that I didn't have significant voltage drop.

[fas42]

7 hours ago, kumakuma said:

 

I'm confused. I can't find any pictures of your equipment in that thread. 

 

I'm especially interested in seeing the following because I'm having a hard time visualizing it:

 

 

 

It's a variation of my first speaker setup, decades ago. Worst part is that it's wooden floorboards - good quality timber, but still bouncy of course, with carpet on top. Concrete slab first, gives mass, beds deeply into carpet - no way good enough, but a first go. Old speakers, as shown, are used as speaker stands - because they were there, atop the concrete. What I had 30 years ago was concrete all the way.

 

Actives sitting on top - just fit. Then weighted down with paper. Which is what I used on the original B&Ws. At each hard interface Blu-Tack is used to firmly couple each to the next - what this gives you if you do it properly is a single effective mass. If you push on the paper column, firmly, you will start to lift the concrete slab off the carpet.

 

Looks silly, but was just an easy way to do exactly what speakers like Wilson are aiming for - largely inert, high mass. Benefits are highly detailed presentation, precise treble, very tight bass.

[kumakuma]

3 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

It's a variation of my first speaker setup, decades ago. Worst part is that it's wooden floorboards - good quality timber, but still bouncy of course, with carpet on top. Concrete slab first, gives mass, beds deeply into carpet - no way good enough, but a first go. Old speakers, as shown, are used as speaker stands - because they were there, atop the concrete. What I had 30 years ago was concrete all the way.

 

Actives sitting on top - just fit. Then weighted down with paper. Which is what I used on the original B&Ws. At each hard interface Blu-Tack is used to firmly couple each to the next - what this gives you if you do it properly is a single effective mass. If you push on the paper column, firmly, you will start to lift the concrete slab off the carpet.

 

Looks silly, but was just an easy way to do exactly what speakers like Wilson are aiming for - largely inert, high mass. Benefits are highly detailed presentation, precise treble, very tight bass.

 

I have no visual imagination. Please share photos.

[fas42]

1 hour ago, Teresa said:

 

At this point I would take it back for a refund. And purchase something that doesn't disappoint.

 

That's the goal ... but no equipment brand new off the floor is good enough, as yet. Irrespective of cost. It always has to be tweaked ... I spent years in the early day checking out what was available, and it became clear that one just couldn't buy a complete solution.

[fas42]

10 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

I have no visual imagination. Please share photos.

 

Since you asked nicely, I'll give it a go ... in a day or so. Still tied up with that drain blockage I mentioned in an earlier post - it turned out that the plumbing is nuts, under the house - an extension of the original structure is the reason; major, ahem, surgery is needed - I'll have to bypass the impossible to get to mess.

 

I don't do photos, full stop. Of anything. Part of the burnout - my head just doesn't want to know about doing things like that ... okay?

[MarkusBarkus]

...I have only been following AS for about six months. During that time, I have gained insight and good food for thought on a number of topics, such that I thought I should "join" and be more interactive. 
 

The notable exception to this forum as a knowledge exchange is this thread, which has to be enjoyed, if at all, purely for entertainment purposes.
 

I imagine Mr. fas42 is *actually* conducting a social experiment regarding online communities.
 

Nothing else makes sense (nothing that doesn't involve counseling and managed medication protocols too sad to contemplate) in a reasonable world. 
 

Some of the silliest comments and most convoluted logic I have read in a long time resides on this thread. And I read *a lot.*

 

Well done Mr. fas42.
 

I hereby submit you should be promoted to Mr. "fas43," effective mediately, with all relevant pay and fringe benefits associated with said promotion.

 

Congratulation and well done, sir! Now pass the popcorn!

 

 

[kumakuma]

4 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

Since you asked nicely, I'll give it a go ... in a day or so. Still tied up with that drain blockage I mentioned in an earlier post - it turned out that the plumbing is nuts, under the house - an extension of the original structure is the reason; major, ahem, surgery is needed - I'll have to bypass the impossible to get to mess.

 

Good luck! My wife doesn't allow me around water or electricity.

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

1 hour ago, kumakuma said:

 

Good luck! My wife doesn't allow me around water or electricity.

 

My wife is quite the opposite.....just last night she handed me the electric hair dryer while i was in the bath !!🤕😈

[kumakuma]

27 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

My wife is quite the opposite.....just last night she handed me the electric hair dryer while i was in the bath !!🤕😈

 

Nooooooooo!

[sandyk]

24 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

My wife is quite the opposite.....just last night she handed me the electric hair dryer while i was in the bath !!🤕😈

 

 Are you sure that it wasn't one of these ? 

 

[John Dyson]

I guess I'll divulge the loud speaker that I use for perfect and accurate presentation of high res recordings.   Normally, this wouldn't really be all that great, but I have spent a lot of time and research painting, oiling and slightly bending the loud speaker until it produces fantastic frequency response and very low distortion.  Additionally, it can produce louder than concert levels, if desired.  My wonderful loud speaker doesn't even appear to be dependent on damping factor -- it is definitely a high tech item.

 

This has taken over 50yrs to get the desired performance, and seems to sound more and more realistic as the loud speaker and I have been getting older.  It just magically has been seeming to be realistic, sounding like real world sounds in recent years.  This is especially true as I have been getting older.   A bench vice and hammer have been wonderful tools to use to adjust the unit based on my very accurate subjective evaluations.

 

I doubt that anyone at all in the world could approach the perceived results-- but it takes a special finesse and innate understanding to attain such an amazing listening experience.   Oddly, there seems to be a 'fatigue factor' in the unit, where I have to keep turning up the volume after listening for even a short amount of time.  I'll be working on that issue, but have an appointment with an audiologist soon because my tinnitus seems to be getting worse..

 

Attached is a picture from a catalog...

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

2 hours ago, MarkusBarkus said:

...I have only been following AS for about six months. During that time, I have gained insight and good food for thought on a number of topics, such that I thought I should "join" and be more interactive. 
 

The notable exception to this forum as a knowledge exchange is this thread, which has to be enjoyed, if at all, purely for entertainment purposes.
 

I imagine Mr. fas42 is *actually* conducting a social experiment regarding online communities.
 

Nothing else makes sense (nothing that doesn't involve counseling and managed medication protocols too sad to contemplate) in a reasonable world. 
 

Some of the silliest comments and most convoluted logic I have read in a long time resides on this thread. And I read *a lot.*

 

Well done Mr. fas42.
 

I hereby submit you should be promoted to Mr. "fas43," effective mediately, with all relevant pay and fringe benefits associated with said promotion.

 

Congratulation and well done, sir! Now pass the popcorn!

 

 

 

Without getting into the "counselling and managed medication protocols" I think you are right, well to put it in layman's terms, that Frank has 'issues'. I have touched on some of these together with IMO an underlying agenda, so I won't elaborate here.

 

So the question is why then the apparent fascination. Clearly, nonsense is everywhere on the Internet so what makes Franks brand of 'noise', which is so transparently evident as 'noise', so apparently fascinating to some members?

 

Probably many of us have more time on our hands because of the pandemic. There is the entertainment aspect if one likes to puzzle over the next twist in the plot. There is also the strong insulting nature of the 'noise' whether stated or implied which draws attention and response of 'you can't say that sort of crap and get away with it'. If nothing else it is the sheer tenacity and perseverance which appears to be beyond all rationality that draws people in like watching a train wreck.

 

The tactics are also unusual in that he combines defeasible reasoning peppered with just enough half-truths and self evident axioms and what I call 'motherhood' platitudes (Frank's fables)  in a mendacious package (Franks fibs) together with backflips and contradictions, irrelevancies, paltering and obfuscation. You literally find yourself scratching your head because even in various other contentious topics that one sees debated on the Internet, whether it be audio, religion, politics, climate change, I have never come across the extent to which Frank can pull this off and apparently keep a 'straight face'.

 

There is one other tactic that serves Frank very well I think. He posts so much stuff over so many threads that it is literally impossible to keep track of. So if he contradicts himself or changes his tune in some way when it suits, it is very difficult to wade back through hundreds, potentially thousands of pages to 'produce the goods'. Not a particularly good example but in the last page or two Frank wrote, "it shouldn't matter in the slightest what the quality of the power feed was like - a well performing rig should be able to be plugged into the most mediocre sockets arrangement, and that not make a difference." Not so long ago he wrote in response to buying decent/high-end equipment that shouldn't require such measures he wrote, "the greater the potential, the fussier you have to be - so, measures are necessary, and if done thoroughly, are highly effective." Now, one of course could make an argument either way and Frank being aware of this will simply change his tack as he goes along and encounters the prevailing winds. When caught out he has a repertoire of responses in order to avoid addressing the issue. Some are better than others, like he will say that was out of context. And of course the onus is on the person to go and find the quote and read through pages of nonsense, which he knows is unlikely. Quite often he just states something totally irrelevant like to paraphrase, yes but if you walk higher up on the hill the vista is always better. This is just gamesmanship and insults the intelligence of people in the discussion.

 

It is quite obvious that you cannot 'win' an argument with Frank because most of us use logic and reasoning in the usual sense and you cannot reason a person out of a place that they did not use reason to arrive at in the first place. They have invented their own place and it is unassailable. But there is something in our rational minds that simply makes some of us want to try. The more sensible members of course never come into this thread or engage Frank on the topic of his 'method'.

 

 

 

[John Dyson]

3 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

Without getting into the "counselling and managed medication protocols" I think you are right, well to put it in layman's terms, that Frank has 'issues'. I have touched on some of these together with IMO an underlying agenda, so I won't elaborate here.

 

So the question is why then the apparent fascination. Clearly, nonsense is everywhere on the Internet so what makes Franks brand of 'noise', which is so transparently evident as 'noise', so apparently fascinating to some members?

 

Probably many of us have more time on I hands because of the pandemic. There is the entertainment aspect is one likes to puzzle over the next twist in the plot. There is also the strong insulting nature of the 'noise' whether stated or implied which draws attention and response of 'you can't say that sort of crap and get away with it'. If nothing else it is the sheer tenacity and perseverance which appears to be beyond all rationality that draws people in like watching a train wreck.

 

The tactics are also unusual in that he combines defeasible reasoning peppered with just enough half-truths and self evident axioms and what I call 'motherhood' platitudes (Frank's fables)  in a mendacious package (Franks fibs) together with backflips and contradictions, irrelevancies, paltering and obfuscation. You literally find yourself scratching your head because even in various other contentious topics that one sees debated on the Internet, whether it be audio, religion, politics, climate change, I have never come across the extent to which Frank can pull this off and apparently keep a 'straight face'.

 

There is one other tactic that serves Frank very well I think. He posts so much stuff over so many threads that it is literally impossible to keep track of. So if he contradicts himself or changes his tune in some way when it suits, it is very difficult to wade back through hundreds, potentially thousands of pages to 'produce the goods'. Not a particularly good example but in the last page or two Frank wrote, "it shouldn't matter in the slightest what the quality of the power feed was like - a well performing rig should be able to be plugged into the most mediocre sockets arrangement, and that not make a difference." Not so long ago he wrote in response to buying decent/high-end equipment that shouldn't require such measures he wrote, "the greater the potential, the fussier you have to be - so, measures are necessary, and if done thoroughly, are highly effective." Now, one of course could make an argument either way and Frank being aware of this will simply change his tack as he goes along and encounters the prevailing winds. When caught out he has a repertoire of responses in order to avoid addressing the issue. Some are better than others, like he will say that was out of context. And of course the onus is on the person to go and find the quote and read through pages of nonsense, which he knows is unlikely. Quite often he just states something totally irrelevant like to paraphrase, yes but if you walk higher up on the hill the vista is always better. This is just gamesmanship and insults the intelligence of people in the discussion.

 

It is quite obvious that you cannot 'win' an argument with Frank because most of us use logic and reasoning in the usual sense and you cannot reason a person out of a place that they did not use reason to arrive at in the first place. They have invented their own place and it is unassailable. But there is something in our rational minds that simply makes some of us want to try. The more sensible members of course never come into this thread or engage Frank on the topic of his 'method'.

 

 

 

Bottom line:  Frank likes his system and wants others to agree.   I like my project, and want others to agree - but sometimes after a frustrated emotional response,  I really do take criticism to heart and learn to resolve the problems.

Sometimes people don't have the tools to actually fix things, and not only that, the equipment isn't available to be evaluated by others.

 

I accept the fact that Frank enjoys his system, but should accept that fact that not everyone will agree with him.   This would be true of almost any system -- I might not be especially impressed with a really good $20k system, even though I'd be pretty sure that I'd think it a good system.  Likewise someone else might be impressed by a $1k system, and not be impressed with the cost of amore expensive system.

 

How can these judgements be a true reflection of someones' feelings?   Because not everyone listens for the same aspects of sound, and also there could be an emotional respect for an inexpensive system being exceptionally good, or be impressed by a system being so expensive and subjectively beautiful to look at.   Each of these things can bias a subjective experience.

 

I wish Frank would be happy to enjoy his system and not feel like he should try to convince others about it.  Maybe the issue is deeper and at a different psychological layer (needing validation, or needing more social interactions.)

 

At first, I didn't know how to deal with Frank, but now I am neutral, and would help him with anything that I could help with, pretty much any time he asks.

 

I wish I could 'fix' everyone that I know, just like I'd like to make my own project perfect.   I DO know that my project often needs improvement, and there are people who constructively criticize the project, even though sometimes I do not respond well - that is just anemotional response.   My response also has a practical aspect, and I try to improve the performance.

 

It is almost impossible to accurately portray an entire system, incl speaker, remotely...  This could be another part of the problem for Frank.   Just a suggestion to those talking about their systems and what they are doing:  be as transparent and as emotionally honest as you can be.   It can help enable people to more easily be collegial and actually be more helpful.

 

John

 

[MarkusBarkus]

John D. -- one of the most honest and sincere posts ever to appear online. The "real" power of 1s and 0s. Thank you...

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

28 minutes ago, John Dyson said:

Bottom line:  Frank likes his system and wants others to agree.   I like my project, and want others to agree - but sometimes after a frustrated emotional response,  I really do take criticism to heart and learn to resolve the problems.

Sometimes people don't have the tools to actually fix things, and not only that, the equipment isn't available to be evaluated by others.

 

I accept the fact that Frank enjoys his system, but should accept that fact that not everyone will agree with him.   This would be true of almost any system -- I might not be especially impressed with a really good $20k system, even though I'd be pretty sure that I'd think it a good system.  Likewise someone else might be impressed by a $1k system, and not be impressed with the cost of amore expensive system.

 

How can these judgements be a true reflection of someones' feelings?   Because not everyone listens for the same aspects of sound, and also there could be an emotional respect for an inexpensive system being exceptionally good, or be impressed by a system being so expensive and subjectively beautiful to look at.   Each of these things can bias a subjective experience.

 

I wish Frank would be happy to enjoy his system and not feel like he should try to convince others about it.  Maybe the issue is deeper and at a different psychological layer (needing validation, or needing more social interactions.)

 

At first, I didn't know how to deal with Frank, but now I am neutral, and would help him with anything that I could help with, pretty much any time he asks.

 

I wish I could 'fix' everyone that I know, just like I'd like to make my own project perfect.   I DO know that my project often needs improvement, and there are people who constructively criticize the project, even though sometimes I do not respond well - that is just anemotional response.   My response also has a practical aspect, and I try to improve the performance.

 

It is almost impossible to accurately portray an entire system, incl speaker, remotely...  This could be another part of the problem for Frank.   Just a suggestion to those talking about their systems and what they are doing:  be as transparent and as emotionally honest as you can be.   It can help enable people to more easily be collegial and actually be more helpful.

 

John

 

 

That's a lovely response John and I wouldn't for a second disagree that we all should try and be more tolerant, less emotionally reactive, more honest, more accepting of constructive criticism, and accepting of others beliefs without judgement (even if we disagree).

 

I and others have said on a number of occasions that Frank has potentially a lot to contribute to discussions. I and others have said on a number of occasions that it is perfectly fine for Frank to enjoy his system and enjoy the music. It appears the edifier speakers are nice  speakers and I am pretty sure I would be perfectly fine listening to them. As I said I enjoy listening to my car radio (a Bose system if I'm not mistaken), and in certain circumstances more so than on my high-end system. Others will disagree with that tenet but it has already been thrashed out elsewhere.

 

The point being, I don't think anyone on this thread has a problem with the fact that Frank enjoys his system and the music it plays. I don't think anyone on this thread has a problem with Frank wanting to tweak his system to get the very best results possible. I don't think anyone on this thread has a problem with Frank wanting to achieve best value for money and producing something worthwhile for a very modest price. On the contrary I think everyone on this thread is rooting for Frank in these endeavours. These things however are NOT the issue, never were the issue and least for my part never will be the issue.

[PeterSt]

1 hour ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

I don't think anyone on this thread has a problem with the fact that Frank enjoys his system

 

If I am not mistaken, during the majority of the lifetime of this thread, Frank did not have a system (for 30 years already), apart from some kind of Ghetto Blaster (Frank ?). Only per the last one month or so, Frank has set up something like "a system" again (Frank ?).

 

People will have a problem with the sheer fact that Frank always and ever talks about some far past system (30 years) while talking about it as if it were presently playing to him today (while always honestly telling that he has no system at all).

 

So it is theories theories theories.

And a living in the past ...

But if you ask me, also explicit part of medical treatment.

[fas42]

3 hours ago, PeterSt said:

 

If I am not mistaken, during the majority of the lifetime of this thread, Frank did not have a system (for 30 years already), apart from some kind of Ghetto Blaster (Frank ?). Only per the last one month or so, Frank has set up something like "a system" again (Frank ?).

 

You are mistaken, Peter ... 😀.

 

To summarise, I had SQ snap into place nearly 35 years - with a combo of high end electronics; and careful tweaking. But that level of playback was highly transient - and I didn't have the knowledge to understand what was going on. Eventually, frustration set in, and I gave the game away - nothing one could buy from a store was anywhere in the race, and I chucked the exercise, entirely. Music was still around,but it was always just typical midfi standard - any better than that, and it would just irritatingly remind me of where I had been, 🙂. Plus, one channel of the power amp died, and then one of the speakers died,

 

What changed things was going to an ultra high end show in Sydney, early 2000's - 2 rigs put on an effort which stirred the juices again; it said, things had evolved to where purchasable gear is very close ... I was inspired. So, some form of a "high end" rig has been running in the household for nearly 20 years now; overall, about a half dozen distinct configs in that 35 years.

 

The latest is easily the best value for money - does so things right, straight of the box; where can this one end up?

 

Quote

 

People will have a problem with the sheer fact that Frank always and ever talks about some far past system (30 years) while talking about it as if it were presently playing to him today (while always honestly telling that he has no system at all).

 

 

 

No system simply meant I very rarely turned it on, because it took too long to warm up to a good standard; and I just wasn't motivated to push it further. The new digital speakers immediately put out a good standard, from a cold start - the potential is too good, not to go further - so, lots of thinkin' happening ... 😉

[fas42]

5 hours ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

Not a particularly good example but in the last page or two Frank wrote, "it shouldn't matter in the slightest what the quality of the power feed was like - a well performing rig should be able to be plugged into the most mediocre sockets arrangement, and that not make a difference."

 

That is: the goal is to make an audio system completely robust in maintaining a desired SQ. The current situation is that everything bought off a shelf is not of that standard.

 

5 hours ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

Not so long ago he wrote in response to buying decent/high-end equipment that shouldn't require such measures he wrote, "the greater the potential, the fussier you have to be - so, measures are necessary, and if done thoroughly, are highly effective."

 

That is: more upmarket  equipment will be closer in some areas in to performing to the necessary standard, but this often exposes weaknesses in areas not so thoroughly addressed - the car that has an engine transplant, but nothing done to the brakes, wraps itself around a tree; because the driver gets too enthusiastic.

 

Care to explain the contradiction, between the two points?

 

5 hours ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

Now, one of course could make an argument either way and Frank being aware of this will simply change his tack as he goes along and encounters the prevailing winds. When caught out he has a repertoire of responses in order to avoid addressing the issue. Some are better than others, like he will say that was out of context. And of course the onus is on the person to go and find the quote and read through pages of nonsense, which he knows is unlikely. Quite often he just states something totally irrelevant like to paraphrase, yes but if you walk higher up on the hill the vista is always better. This is just gamesmanship and insults the intelligence of people in the discussion.

 

It is quite obvious that you cannot 'win' an argument with Frank because most of us use logic and reasoning in the usual sense and you cannot reason a person out of a place that they did not use reason to arrive at in the first place. They have invented their own place and it is unassailable. But there is something in our rational minds that simply makes some of us want to try. The more sensible members of course never come into this thread or engage Frank on the topic of his 'method'.

 

 

 

 

I am mighty lucky not to have David as a neighbour - others are probably not so fortunate ... 🙂.

[fas42]

5 hours ago, John Dyson said:

I accept the fact that Frank enjoys his system, but should accept that fact that not everyone will agree with him.   This would be true of almost any system -- I might not be especially impressed with a really good $20k system, even though I'd be pretty sure that I'd think it a good system.  Likewise someone else might be impressed by a $1k system, and not be impressed with the cost of amore expensive system.

 

 

Just to clarify - what I enjoy is evolving a system to a point where I can put on any recording, and it's satisfying to listen to. Part of that satisfaction is that the realism of the presentation is highly convincing, caused by the mind being able to discard technical inadequacies.

 

Which is not the same thing as being able to enjoy the system, at every point in time. While it's evolving, it will still irritate at times, because some issues are not resolved.

 

Those who wish to differentiate "good" from "bad" recordings, using their setups as the dividing tool, won't agree with me. But they shouldn't bother with me, since they are on very different roads - so it's curious that they feel the need to interject, in the way happening right now.

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

22 minutes ago, fas42 said:

Care to explain the contradiction, between the two points?

No problem. If the wheels on the bus go round and round in a sagittal plane the steering wheel must also go around but from left to right in a more coronal plane. If one contradicts the other the bus will crash😁