MQA The Truth lies Somewhere in the Middle

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Scoggins, himself a shareholder, just informed me that Bob Stewart has been hired to turn things around for the Vector car company:

 

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/vector-avtech-wx-8-hpv-auto-shows

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18 hours ago, Ryan Berry said:

Somewhat late to the thread, but accurately said, Barrows.  It's not the manufacturers that will determine what happens with MQA -- it's the consumers.  Though I will say that manufacturers have a role in giving the technology legitimacy to many consumers, so we have a part to play as well.  I appreciate technology and would love to have something new for the company to get to design around, but that technology has to also fit in with what Ayre believes in.

 

To back up Barrows, there's plenty of people -- both consumers and dealers -- that came to us in the early days of MQA and told us that if we didn't have MQA capabilities we wouldn't be able to sell any units.  Charley was obviously vehemently against the idea and single-handedly held the team back from moving forward, as the rest of us just saw it as offering another format to consumers to use or not, much like we did with DSD.  As time has gone on, those voices that I'm personally hearing have become quieter and has started to shift toward the, "If you add MQA, I'm NOT buying your product" crowd.  Anymore, I think we get asked about two or three times per show and maybe once a month about it.  How much has it cost us?  It's hard to tell.  Most high end manufacturers aren't great at getting those kind of metrics, and Ayre's no exception...we're inventors first, not marketers.  How much does what I am hearing reflect the overall market?  I couldn't tell you there either.  In the end, the dream is that we're still around and can keep doing what we're doing while people figure out what they want.  Even though this group is quite decided in their opinions, keep in mind that there's less technical users out there that just don't know one way or the other and only care about how it sounds to them.  We stuck our ground after wavering quite a number of times on the subject, so I can't blame those manufacturers that did feel the need to adopt the technology out of fear of remaining relevant and current, just as I can't blame those that have stayed silent while they've waited to see how things unfold (pardon the pun).  At one point, we were one of them.

 

13 hours ago, wklie said:

 

Lumin supports MQA for a very specific reason: Tidal.  We try our best to support whatever format designated by streaming services.  Qobuz Hi-Res uses FLAC, that is good, there's very little extra work for us.  Hypothetically, if Tidal adopted a proprietary and new version of WMA Hi-Res (instead of MQA) and offered those Hi-Res music at no extra cost to existing lossless subscribers,  then we would have to support that as well.  We support MQA not because of certain features of MQA - we support MQA because it is designated by Tidal.  (Back then I did not expect there would be MQA CD, but now that MQA CD is a reality, this would have been a factor to drive us to support MQA as well.)

 

We did not fear of becoming irrelevant.  We did fear our customers could not play the music they wanted to play at the best possible quality using our products, regardless of whether it is Tidal Master or MQA CD.  Unlike many network DAC, Lumin does not have any digital input whatsoever.  We could not even tell Tidal customers to use Tidal desktop app for MQA Core decoding, because without digital input our products cannot be used with Tidal desktop app.  Back then no third party add-on solution existed for our products to decode Tidal Master, so we had to implement it by ourselves.

 

There are members here who do not believe there are customers who ask for MQA.  Check out the old threads in Roon forum and you'll see there were many, before Roon added MQA support in version 1.5.  I explained there people wanted that because at that time Tidal is the only streaming service Roon integrated with, and Tidal Master is free to existing lossless subscribers.  Free music is important for many people, although @crenca disagreed and I respect that.  Some may question how long can Tidal offer Tidal Master at no extra cost, or even how sustainable their business is, or it may become less important if it is integrated to Roon as rumored and then everybody switches to Qobuz Sublime+ (EUR299.99 annual), but those possibilities are in the future.  At this point in time, there are people who use Tidal.

 

8 minutes ago, FredericV said:

11. MQA hires key opinion makers

 

The neat thing about this whole MQA episode is how it puts a spotlight on just who are "key opinion makers".   Yes, MQA played their cards well with the "Old Guard" trade publication/marketing apparatus, but it simply did not work.  Scoggins puts up his 10 point business proposal as if there is something to it but in reality it's just so much talk, air and wishful thinking. Why?  Well, besides the fact that MQA is a really thin sell under the best of circumstances, consumers in the end decide.  Pre-internet sure, how would consumers communicate?  The Old Guard sells apparatus might have worked in the past, or at least worked long enough for widespread MQA adoption to be $worth$ it.  Today the lay of the land is fundamentally changed.  Even an "objectivist" such as Amir over at ASR has to lock down threads when he himself tries to sell MQA over and against everything he is supposed to be about.  The speed of consumer thought is now much much faster - too fast for the Old Guard to keep up even when they have the competency with the subject (MQA revealed how technically/digitally ignorant they are).

 

Will there be another MQA, another Bob Stuart?  Of course.  Will companies such Ayer feel the pressure in the beginning when the Old Guard do what they do?  Yep.  However there will be many more voices saying "Patience young grasshopper, let the voices who matter speak" ?

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7 hours ago, firedog said:

Notice how Lee totally changes his pro MQA arguments over time? He used to talk a lot about the SQ superiority and the technical superiority. Now that those arguments have been shown to be bunk, he mostly talks about how MQA is "good for the industry" (my paraphrase). 

He's moving very close the the Jim Austin argument, which boils down to "whatever is good for the big record labels is good for consumers" - even if it clearly isn't good for consumers. 
 

I'm not saying that to claim either are paid shills. It's just an industry-centric outlook on life. 

 

Well, yes. I and others have been pointing out the Audiophiledom culture problem for a while but to paraphrase Paul Simon,  "Cultures come and cultures go, so what are you going to do about it that is what I would like to know"

 

A proposal:

 

Chris creates a section to the forums, or even better a front page presence, titled "the Industry behaving badly" or "Audiophile writers behaving badly".  It will be composed of a quoted sentence or two from Atkinson, Harley, Austin, JVS, Scoggins - all the usual suspects followed by a short (2 paragraphs at most) explication of why it is wrong,  just how wrong it is, and why it is fundamentally anti-consumer.  MQA of course has provided much fodder, but it would be trivial to write dozens of pieces going back years...

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28 minutes ago, John_Atkinson said:

 

Why would I do that for anonymous posters on an Internet Forum?

 

As I said, I understand Chris Connaker has the MQA files that Bob Carver was writing about and the original PCM versions. He might be more amenable to sharing them with you.

 

John Atkinson

Editor, Stereophile

 

 

You hear that boys and girls, your merely the unwashed "anonymous" masses...why would you think you are worthy!  Best just listen to your betters like John Atkinson and the rest of the "Old Guard" who are telling you that MQA is really good for you and everyone else... ?

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14 minutes ago, testererr said:

 

As 2d images are not a series of edges. 

Still, if you want to reproduce sharp transients/edges, you need to capture those signals, even though they are not bandlimited. 

 

Nope

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1 hour ago, John_Atkinson said:

 

No, but: https://www.stereophile.com/content/zen-art-ad-conversion

 

John Atkinson

Editor, Stereophile

 

But...what?  Nothing in the end...

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All of this is also quite besides the point of MQA, which packages a false solution to a false problem (i.e. the dirac pulse/ringing false problem) in a rent seeking DRM package.

 

 

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23 minutes ago, John_Atkinson said:

 

Hansen. How difficult is it for you to spell his name correctly?

 

John Atkinson

Editor, Stereophile

 

Settle down Beavis  This is an internet forum, not an Old Guard back slap pow-wow.  Netiquette is that minor misspellings are the norm and ignored.

 

You owe Albrecht an apology.

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1 minute ago, John_Atkinson said:

 

I hardly think so. Charley Hansen is dead. The least people can do is pay him the respect of spelling his name correctly.

 

John Atkinson

Editor, Stereophile

 

 

Who do you think you're foolin?  Charley (or Charly, or Cherley, or cHarLeY) being dead, alive, or something in between has nothing to do with it.  Netiquette, look up the term, "Editor".  Perhaps if you were more familiar with the "Internet" you would not have jumped in face first into MQA ?

 

You still owe @Albrechtan apology

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10 minutes ago, John_Atkinson said:

 

Thank you.

 

John Atkinson

Editor, Stereophile

 

 

For what?  You played the man instead of the ball as Old Guard audiophiledom is want to do and after a yellow card offense on @Albrechthe sheepishly got up off the turf and explained himself to you.

 

It's a crazy (audiophile) world...

 

 

 

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26 minutes ago, Albrecht said:

Corrected my spelling error of Charles' name. I have been/am a fan of Charles' work and would never intentionally disparage his work, ideas, or person.

 

 

WTF?  Maybe he was an real a-hole who used to beat his wife and children when he was not kicking his neighbors dog.  Maybe he was an angel who put on a mask at night and protected old ladies from purse snatchers while he swung from building to building using expensive audiophile cable. How would you know either way?

 

Probably, he was just a man with some good ideas about audio and some bad (e.g. I think he was wrong about MP filtering). 

 

Hey @The Computer Audiophile, you just do not "respect" BobS enough to properly "moderate" your forum and the truth about MQA and this is why you were shouted down by MQA execs and the Old Guard during your presentation (and no doubt everyday behind the scenes).  Your whole approach to this business is a giant metaphorical misspelling and a lack of respect to "work, ideas, persons".  ?

 

 

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1 minute ago, Albrecht said:

I made a mistake. I am happy to have the error pointed out, - doesn't matter who pointed it out. Easy enough to correct.

I would much rather have folks comment on the content of my post, - if correcting a spelling error/oversight returns the focus and comments back to the arguments, comments, subject, of this thread than that is what is most important.

 

I would be most grateful if the posts surrounding my post would focus on my argument/comment instead of my spelling.

 

My comments about MQA had nothing to do with who Albrecht, John, or Charles are.

 

Have you not noticed that the content of your post is irrelevant to John Atkinson and the rest of the Old Guard, and has been for several years now???

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4 hours ago, Odd Magnus Bjerkvik said:

https://www.techly.com.au/2016/04/01/if-you-correct-peoples-grammar-your-probably-a-jerk-science/

 

Too funny and too true...

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On 10/30/2018 at 6:58 AM, rando said:

If the best you can throw at him is the fastidiousness of restoring the name of a recently deceased member of the audio community.  I'd rethink just how childish these attacks are growing. 

 

 

24 minutes ago, christopher3393 said:

In the case of the above post, you could just highlight the word "childish" and get the drift, and a reasonable request to give J.A. a break every now and then. How hard is that to get?

 

 

JA is not here to "reasonably" or even fastidiously honor a person or even simply (in a fastidious editorial fashion) correct the spelling of anyone's name.  

 

When he starts participating in the discussion, by actually addressing the substance of the content of the thread then he will "get a break".  Until then, his disruption and subversiveness will be pointed out for what it is.

 

If you two want to mis-characterize both JA's (or any of the other Old Guard such as Scoggins) "participation" in threads like these and the reaction to this (false) participation as "attacks", "childish", and the like then of course you can - but then someone like me will just come along and suggest you both get a clue...

 

Winkies all around!

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On 10/30/2018 at 6:58 AM, rando said:

Measurably 

Quarrelsome

Atkinson

 

With the amount of abuse he gets handed here it's pretty simple to understand his not bursting with a sense of community good will and positivity....

 

 

Another thought:  I won't deny that JA, Scoggins, Quint,  and the rest of the Old Guard are not mocked, sarcastically dismissed, etc. etc.  However, they bring it upon themselves by being anti-community and having ill will towards audiophile's in general and negativity towards consumers who participate on forums such as this one.  I don't need to catalog once again all the various ways they put the industry and their own perspectives first, second, and third.  To have "a sense of community good will and positivity" you have to first actually BE part of a community, and POSITIVELY put them first, or at least consider what is positive for them.  JA and the rest of this Old Guard do not do this - in fact they do the very opposite. They are best labeled as anti-audiophile and anti-audiophile community.  

 

Their participation on this thread has been solely to wag their finger at @The Computer Audiophile for actually doing "journalism" around MQA and not "moderating" audiophiles so they can not see the truth!!  They actually blame Chris for these MQA exec's behavior!!!

 

Get a clue @christopher3393 & @rando !  You want civility, community, and positivity?  Then stop blaming the actual community!  It is the real audiophile community and not JA, Scoggins, and the like who do what communities are supposed to do - support and positively help one another.  JA and the rest are STILL trying to sell MQA and the like, and have offically hit the chickenshit phase of their livelihood and existence as audiophile "authorities"...

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4 minutes ago, rando said:

Why don't you boys go play on their field if they got tired of traveling all the way out to yours?  I bet if you took Christopher with he'd enjoy watching. 

 

Now it's good that you have such vigor and team spirit.  Sometimes it just gets to be a bit much when you all pile into one room and lose track how out of control your behavior is growing.  Some of you start showing how uncool you are and I get afraid it rub off on the others.  Focus, none of you are of a bad sort to get mixed up in wrong doing. 

 

Now put on some fresh uniforms and go make those other guys regret having to face you.  Just remember what separates you from taking from the wrong path and treat others with respect.  Especially if they lack understanding of what it is you need to set an example for them to follow.

 

You have officially hit the chickenshit phase of your civility critique...

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51 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

 You are not wrong !!!

 

55 minutes ago, Rt66indierock said:

With some very nervous people watching on the sidelines hoping high resolution audio isn't taken out along with MQA.    

 

 

Whoever they are (just who are they?) I don't feel for them in the least.  When the next "big thing", the next sales job becomes such a desperate enterprise that your willing to sell EVERYONE down a DRM river, then you deserve the fallout whatever it is.  It is long past time for the curtain to be pulled on the Audiophile confidence game...

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58 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

Guess I may be late to the party here, but were you meaning to sweep in all hi-res streaming and downloads?

 

No, boutique labels and independent artists will do what they will regardless.  It was a general statement to @Rt66indierockgeneralized 'they'.  I assume he means the "big" labels (we are still at 4 of them right?) and perhaps their outlets for Hi Rez (HDTracks, etc.).  Since these guys appear to be having a business case/crisis of conscious over Hi Res and a supposed relationship to "piracy", then I would rather them keep their Hi Rez and give us reliable, good old 16/44 than MQA or any other similar "super MP3" DRM format...

 

edit:  I have noticed in the last few weeks an increase of MQA in Tidal when I go to the genre section  - more new albums are consistently MQadulterated.  Oct. has come and gone and no Qobuz yet.  I have tolerated Tidal for its Roon integration and relatively low MQA album count, but I am now ready to leave them behind for real Hi Res, and barring that 16/44...

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19 minutes ago, Rt66indierock said:

 

They are the people at the labels supporting high resolution, people in the Recording Academy (Grammy) supporting high resolution, the Digital Entertainment Group and various others supporting gold and black logos on audio equipment. 

 

People have been pushing hi-res audio hard for what 18 years? And where are they at? I talked with several label representatives and Marc Finer of the Digital Entertainment Group at the Los Angeles Audio Show in 2017. I told them you are going to find hi-res is a very tough sell. They are finding this to be true.

 

I assume they were all "mixed" on MQA - on the one hoping its success (however measured) would lift all the hi-res boats, and on the other hand it would not supplant/replace hi-res.  

 

Looks like MQA did neither, instead it showed (in its own way) the futility of wide acceptance or "need" of hi-res...

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3 hours ago, John_Atkinson said:

....when those data were analyzed, the differences between the channels were the same as those of the original PCM files, meaning that Bob Carver's unsupported assertion that MQA encoding includes crosstalk cancellation - he didn't perform difference tests - was wrong.

 

John Atkinson

Editor, Stereophile 

 

I have to agree with you test here at least when it comes to your won Master Quality Adulterated files. Bob's assertion was just that, an "assertion" and speculation as to what could possibly explain the "birth of a new world" (I know you don't like what this quip has come to represent to the narrative but trade publications no longer own the narrative, they now just contribute to it ,mostly negatively ? ) assertions by trade publication writers around MQA SQ.  By debunking him you guys have one less out, one less plausible explanation for the plainly wrong position that MQA gives the consumer a "birth of a new world" SQ experience...

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1 minute ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

Would be nice to know what was deblurred. It could have easily been detailed if this was real. 

 

Yea MQA, if "deblurring" is real, show us the math! ?

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12 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

We’ve gone from straight wire with gain to lossy audio origami.  

 

In a way it feels like MQA is using the Populist playbook claiming to fight for the little guy / artist who just doesn’t get paid enough. Meanwhile, MQA cashes checks while the little guy keeps getting screwed because he already signed away his rights to the labels and the other little guy / the consumer signs those checks. 

 

As of now MQA is only cashing IOUs, but should it succeed Populism will have made it to HiFi. 

 

Interesting way to frame it.  I argue that it is the opposite:  unalderated PCM/DSD (of whatever bit depth/resolution) is what allows the "little guy", the consumer, to play, manipulate (DSP), and store music AND connect to the artist/music.  This is what "the artist intends" and this is what is "populist" because this is what people actually want.

 

It is the elites in "the industry" and the trade publications in particular that want to sell (and/or force) a top down, proprietary, "end to end", technocratic solution that is sold as "better" but is in fact a DRMed "super" MP3 that does nothing but limit artists and consumers.  These guys might have at one time been "Audiophiles" and popular, now they are elitists who have very narrow interests at heart (the very opposite of "populist").

 

However you look at it and frame it, MQA is bad...

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3 minutes ago, mav52 said:

 

True, Lee just keeps on hitting that repeat button and out it comes. 

 

He's not even a real boy - he's a Russian MQA spam bot

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3 hours ago, datasyd said:

 

I invited a couple of Polish friends over with similar musical tastes, both playing professionally. All I can say is one friend pointed at her arms and in somewhat broken English tried to express she had goosebumps. I doubt impressing 40 people would be a challenge. It's beautiful.

 

Note to self:  When trying to impress Polish ladies, vacuous astroturfing rhetoric works ?

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1 hour ago, Hugo9000 said:

I wonder what the relevance of the lady being Polish was to that charming anecdote.  Are there vast numbers of music-loving Poles in Australia and New Zealand, all of whom would gladly subscribe to Tidal if only they were aware of its availability there?  And was it necessary to criticize the poor lady's English skills?  Perhaps that was by way of explaining that she is not one of the 4000 subscribers in Australia and New Zealand, as Tidal only advertises in English in those locales?

 

Gosh Hugo9000, are you implying that @datasyd (aka MQA Astroturfer) post was MQA's #MeToo moment?  I demand an investigation!