Forgive me Computeraudiophiles, for I have sinned

[miguelito]

On 7/8/2018 at 11:41 AM, joelha said:

Forgive me Computeraudiophiles, for I have sinned

 

I’ve been a devoted digital music listener for a long time. I’ve gone the Mac, Linux and Windows routes (currently Windows). I’m using an SLC SSD OS drive with a Pachanko Sata cable and linear power supplies to power my server, external hard drive and router. My current player of choice is XXHighend. I’m using the Berkeley Alpha Reference 2 DAC and a Mutec clock. I could go on, but you get the idea. I’ve been committed to making my digital sound the best I possibly could.

 

The convenience of digital combined with the fact that I can constantly tweak my signal chain to further improve the sound has always been attractive to me. And I’ve loved the sound.

 

Friends have hounded me to get into vinyl. And, as good as vinyl has sounded, given the very considerable expense of getting very good sound and the additional trouble of playing albums, I haven’t been sold.

 

But something changed all of that.

 

Reel to reel tape.

 

Believe me, I know the issues. First, if albums are inconvenient, tape is even more so. When is the last time you had to rewind a vinyl album? I suppose the time to thread a tape onto a machine and cueing up an album aren’t that different.

 

But then there’s music catalog availability. I’m only interested in playing 15 ips (inches per second) two track tapes. The availability of those tapes is very limited and for those recently recorded, crazy expensive. You can spend up to $500 and more for an album. Even a really good 2500 foot blank tape can run $70+ dollars with aluminum reel. And then you’ll only get 33 minutes of recording time at 15 ips.

 

If the story ended there, I would have said stayed away from the reel to reel option.

 

But, and I know for some this will be controversial, I’ve been listening to ripped CD’s recorded onto tape and loving it. Have I made my copy of the music more accurate than the source? Of course not. I know the copied version is a “colored” copy of the original. And I don’t care. For this audiophile, it’s smoother richer and highlights how far digital still has to go. I could far more easily listen to my reel to reel player for five hours at a time than my digital system. And I still love my digital system . . . but now, just not as much.

 

A few comments about replies to this post.

 

If you want to debate the benefits of custom sata cables, linear power supplies and the like, please do it on the thousand other threads on this site which do that.

If you want to question the value of spending so much money on a dac or using a clock, please do that elsewhere as well. That’s not the point of this thread.

 

If, on the other hand, you want to tell me you have a digital system which matches or exceeds the enjoyment factor you have had from reel to reel tape, please chime in.

Other comments or questions are welcome as well. I’m very new to this reel to reel part of the hobby and, for all the reasons I’ve mentioned above, won’t abandon the digital part of my system. But it’s a heck of a lot harder to go back to now.

 

Joel

Thy sins will never be forgiven!!! Hence nothing to worry about. Enjoy!!!

 

Now the topic of "coloring" is very interesting to me. I run single ended tubes so I know my music is colored like a caleidoscope and I love it. 

 

Which brings up the question: couldn't we determine a transfer function for 15ips tape and implement a digital filter that would get you there?

[miguelito]

1 minute ago, miguelito said:

Which brings up the question: couldn't we determine a transfer function for 15ips tape and implement a digital filter that would get you there?

@mansr??? Any ideas???

 

[miguelito]

On 7/8/2018 at 12:05 PM, PeterSt said:

If you set the tape deck to record mode + pause and monitor the output (to the speakers), is the noise there too (its character can be different now) ?

Interestingly, I have a fairly nice 3-head cassette deck that can monitor the recorded sound in realtime (one head records, the head next to it reads back). Maybe I should try this out...

 

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

2 hours ago, esldude said:

 

 

 

From the engineer of the album:

 

Guy Fletcher

APRIL 6, 2015 AT 1:04 AM

Hi Mark, the engineer you speak of in this article is myself….Guy Fletcher. I’d like to clarify a few misconceptions you have highlighted/created. Firstly, this IS to all intents and purposes an analog recording. Everything was recorded onto tape (using CLASP) and then resided in the Pro Tools system at 96k 24bit. ALL overdubs were treated in the same way and any ‘comping’ from multiple takes we did, were done in the digital domain. The album was mixed (using individual outputs) on an API Legacy console DIRECTLY to 1″ stereo analog tape and the CD and Vinyl were BOTH cut directly from this analog master (no digital there). The only (very small) compromise to this otherwise entirely analog project was the A-D and D-A conversion into and out of the DAW for which we use Prism converters as we rate these very highly. The reaction to the sonic quality of the record speaks for itself.

I’m happy to answer any questions about this or any other MK or GF project on my website. http://www.guyfletcher.co.uk

thanks
Guy

 

 

Thanks for this I will look for this album.

IMO even many of the Dire Straits tracks were above average SQ.

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

3 hours ago, esldude said:

 

 

From the engineer of the album:

 

Guy Fletcher

 

 

 

I don't know about anyone else but I would believe anything someone called "Guy Fletcher" says, the name is as cool as "James Bond"

 

In a Sean Connery accent..

 

" Hi my name is Guy Fletcher. I take my album mixed - not shaken, not stirred - on an API Legacy console DIRECTLY to 1″ stereo analog tape "

 

[mansr]

1 hour ago, miguelito said:

Which brings up the question: couldn't we determine a transfer function for 15ips tape and implement a digital filter that would get you there?

Sure, but since tape is non-linear, it's not as simple as measuring an impulse response.

[firedog]

1 hour ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

Thanks for this I will look for this album.

IMO even many of the Dire Straits tracks were above average SQ.

Am listening to Tracker on Tidal. Yes, does seem like a pretty good recording and yes, it does have a bit of an "analog" sound to it, even over Tidal. 

Does sound like they volume compressed it a tiny bit (not headache inducing, by any means) in order to give it a "modern" sound. But it sounds good. 

[Jud]

1 hour ago, firedog said:

Am listening to Tracker on Tidal. Yes, does seem like a pretty good recording and yes, it does have a bit of an "analog" sound to it, even over Tidal. 

Does sound like they volume compressed it a tiny bit (not headache inducing, by any means) in order to give it a "modern" sound. But it sounds good. 

 

If they did, "tiny" would be the correct term: 

 

http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=&album=Tracker

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

44 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

If they did, "tiny" would be the correct term: 

 

http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=&album=Tracker

 

A respectable DR indeed

[semente]

2 hours ago, Jud said:

 

If they did, "tiny" would be the correct term: 

 

http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=&album=Tracker

 

Correct me if I am wrong but I don't think that you can get conclusive information from the DR Database website unless you can compare different masterings of the same album or recording because, if I understand correctly, the DR value depends also on the musical programme's characteristics, meaning that if a song has a relatively constant steady state background line this will reduce the DR value.

 

I say this because some of the classical music tracks which I know to have a very wide dynamic range only get 10 or 12 in the TT analysis.

[Jud]

17 minutes ago, semente said:

 

Correct me if I am wrong but I don't think that you can get conclusive information from the DR Database website unless you can compare different masterings of the same album or recording because, if I understand correctly, the DR value depends also on the musical programme's characteristics, meaning that if a song has a relatively constant steady state background line this will reduce the DR value.

 

I say this because some of the classical music tracks which I know to have a very wide dynamic range only get 10 or 12 in the TT analysis.

 

That's true.  I have the album, and there aren't any symphony orchestras on it. ? The DR is quite good for the reasonably simple music, instrumentation, and production.

[miguelito]

5 hours ago, mansr said:

Sure, but since tape is non-linear, it's not as simple as measuring an impulse response.

Good point. Saturation matters.

 

What is a good methodology to determine such a transfer function (just curious).

[Brinkman Ship]

hmm..nothing like power cords to bump MQA off the top of the page...

[miguelito]

4 minutes ago, Brinkman Ship said:

hmm..nothing like power cords to bump MQA off the top of the page...

You had to bring the three letter acronym into this didn't you?!?!

 

I bet you there's a lot of MeQA, some of it along the lines of tape-style DSP in it.

[firedog]

4 hours ago, Jud said:

 

If they did, "tiny" would be the correct term: 

 

http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=&album=Tracker

Yes, I saw that, but the bass, especially, seems like it's been pumped up. 

[Jud]

25 minutes ago, firedog said:

Yes, I saw that, but the bass, especially, seems like it's been pumped up. 

 

Is this an MQA or "straight" Tidal version?  Full/hi res or lossy? 

 

The reason I ask is because I have 16/44.1 and 24/192 versions and neither sounds to me as if it has overemphasized bass, though of course our tastes or systems may simply differ on this.

[firedog]

4 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

Is this an MQA or "straight" Tidal version?  Full/hi res or lossy? 

 

The reason I ask is because I have 16/44.1 and 24/192 versions and neither sounds to me as if it has overemphasized bass, though of course our tastes or systems may simply differ on this.

It's the 16/44 "deluxe" version. I could be wrong, it could just be the way they mixed it. The bass and drums just seem to me more emphasized than is usual in this type of music. 

[PeterSt]

16 hours ago, firedog said:

It's the 16/44 "deluxe" version. I could be wrong, it could just be the way they mixed it. The bass and drums just seem to me more emphasized than is usual in this type of music. 

 

Tracker, 16/44 normal version from Tidal, sounds overly colored to me. So much so that after 5 tracks I thought "oh well, this bores - bye". And mind you, this never happens to me, unless my gear exposes something of the (coloring) order hence something is wrong. Now the dangerous part :

 

This album was already in my "Nice stuff" gallery, BUT in MQA incarnation only (I never heard the normal version before yesterday). So, very reluctant to even bother, I was too much intrigued how the album could have ended up as nice stuff, it now sounding to (really) bad to me. And so I played a few tracks of the MQA version.

 

First of all I couldn't help still hearing the coloring, but what was very profound was the much more "tack" in everything and the not sounding "too dark" at all, which was the foremost exhibit of the normal version.

 

Implied message : Nice try Mr Knopfler but for me it doesn't work out. You indeed added some flavor, but it is now in everything at the same "level" and it bores. And true, I hate everything which doesn't sound neutral.
 

 

 

[semente]

5 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

Tracker, 16/44 normal version from Tidal, sounds overly colored to me. So much so that after 5 tracks I thought "oh well, this bores - bye".

 

Was it the sound or the music? ?

[esldude]

1 hour ago, semente said:

 

Was it the sound or the music? ?

I agree with Peter I think. 

 

It is the sound and the music, and the lack of energy of liveliness of Knopfler on the first three songs.  I think starting with the 4th track- Skydiver it gets better with subsequent songs.  Better sound, better music, more engagement by the musician.  The first three just don't do anything for me.  Like Mark was too tired when he did them.  If that was artistic intent for the topic of the lyrics (which it might have been) he nailed sounding like a worn out old guy who doesn't have any energy left.  

 

The last 8 tracks though are quite engaging to me.  I think they make it worth having the Tracker album.   And hey, 8 of 11 is pretty good.  Nothing to dismiss.   

[PeterSt]

4 minutes ago, semente said:

9 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

Tracker, 16/44 normal version from Tidal, sounds overly colored to me. So much so that after 5 tracks I thought "oh well, this bores - bye".

 

Was it the sound or the music? ?

 

This question is very much justified, but to be interpreted in an other way than obvious (despite what Dennis just told);

 

The problem I clearly have in general, is that when my system adds too much of its own flavor, all starts to sound the same. And it is between my ears that I can't bear that. The only way I notice this, is by this means : 

Is that G-D song still not finished ?!

So it is not explicitly in me that things sound the same, but the variation has vanished because all sounds the same. It is literally a boring endless repeat of a "chorus" while a chorus is not even there. It doesn't catch. It isn't right ...

 

I am sure that this is only me who is bothered by such a thing, and I guess it is the left over of not allowing e.g. the NOS1 to sound the same ever (has to be 100% neutral). Deep in my mind that "same sound" becomes profound because it "should" bother.

With this Mark Knopfler (I think) it is the technical slowness (resulting in sluggishness). And exactly as Denis expresses it : the man seems tired. But I am pretty sure it is just the recording (technique). Say it is the opposite of the PRaT being OK; assuming the PRaT is a "system" matter, when that is fine, all is fast, happy, up-beat etc. And maybe it is no wonder that a track with drums in it, suddenly comes across better, regarding all this.

Or ?

 

 

 

[Jud]

Interesting. I like River Towns (third song), as does my wife.  There's a fair amount I like in the last group of songs, though I find Beryl, which was the featured track leading up to the album's release, to be rather a minor thing.

[mav52]

10 minutes ago, Jud said:

Interesting. I like River Towns (third song), as does my wife.  There's a fair amount I like in the last group of songs, though I find Beryl, which was the featured track leading up to the album's release, to be rather a minor thing.

 Interesting from Knopfler

 

"

"River Towns" is song from Mark Knopfler's latest album, Tracker (2015). About the song, Knopfler says:

"There's always a danger that I'll write a character song. This is a young guy who is a mate on a tug boat on the American river system."

The character, Knopfler informs us, is a writer he discovered, called Breece D.J. Pancake, who committed suicide when he was a young man. "I think it was the fact of the loneliness of the boy at Chistmas that must have resonated with me somehow"

Knopfler recalls being a young man in a band himself. He says "we'd had a gig in Penzance, the far end of the country. It was Christmas day and I was hitchhiking home. That's all I did then, was hitchhike all the time. It was snow everywhere, and I got dropped off halfway up the country on a slip road. I'm on the top of the slip road and I'm looking all around, 360 degrees, there's just snow and nothing moving! The sun's coming down on the snow, and I'm standing there, and I'm the only living thing. I remember having a very clear idea about what I'd chosen to do, with my guitar in my bag."

"I think 'River Towns' more deals with the issue of loneliness, and you realise when you read a great story like that how much there is of it in this world" Knopfler says. "So really, just a young guy alone at Christmas (...) I suppose you've got to find something in these characters that you can identify with"

 

I pretty much like everything Knopfler has ever done.

[esldude]

8 hours ago, Jud said:

Interesting. I like River Towns (third song), as does my wife.  There's a fair amount I like in the last group of songs, though I find Beryl, which was the featured track leading up to the album's release, to be rather a minor thing.

Funny you bring that one up.  I simply didn't care at all for the first two.  River Towns I kept wanting to like.  I just felt Mark was tired on it.  Yes terrible to say, and not trying to be mean about it.  Plus I've listened to this only twice.  Sometimes it takes a while for something to make sense as intended.  Right now I think "this could be a great song if someone else did it".  

 

Lights of Taormina is another I feel like might be better done by someone else.  Even though I liked it here.  This is unusual for me on Mark Knopfler songs as I normally couldn't imagine his better work done by anyone else.   And I don't have someone in mind to suggest.  There seems a tiredness to him right now.  

 

I suppose the one I found most engaging is Silver Eagle along with Broken Bones.  

 

I couldn't be a music critic though.  I feel bad writing about someone's work this way.  Were it not for his past stellar work I wouldn't be thinking this about his current album.  And while this conversation started about how the album was recorded this just underscores it is about the music.  This recording has a sound, one purposely chosen.  I think it is exacerbating the tiredness, but were it not for the lack of energy it wouldn't get in the way.  Better recording quality than usual for sure.  

 

 

[Ralf11]

On 7/11/2018 at 8:20 AM, Brinkman Ship said:

hmm..nothing like power cords to bump MQA off the top of the page...

 

 

I'm gonna set up a Kickstarter for MQA power cords