Lies about vinyl vs digital

[sandyk]

7 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

I note that very recent remasterings of ABBA, on CD, are atrocious - got one from the local library ... all bass, zero treble, max compression. Obviously made for the current generation who are used to gross manipulation - fine if you consider it a completely new act, but useless in a side by side comparison.

 If these recent remastered recordings appear to have no treble to YOUR ears, this means that the Remastering Engineer has tried to EQ OVER the  non decoded Dolby A of many of the earlier releases, which confirms that John is indeed correct with what he is doing .

[fas42]

1 minute ago, John Dyson said:

They are not incompetent, instead they expected the listeners to be unwary, and to accept the relative garbage that is being sold to them.   The distributors are smart -- saving lots of cost to do real time decoding instead of quick digital file copying and filtering.   It took a relatively persistent person with the correct skills to ferret out the problem.   I guess that there aren't many of me out there, but it is true.

Beancounters prevail.

 

John

 

 

The beancounters may not have cared, but I suspect one or two people who do the actual recording care a little bit about what it sounds like 🙂... yet not a single one of those has noticed, and "written letters to the editor" about it?

[John Dyson]

Just now, fas42 said:

 

The beancounters may not have cared, but I suspect one or two people who do the actual recording care a little bit about what it sounds like 🙂... yet not a single one of those has noticed, and "written letters to the editor" about it?

I find it to be amazing that someone else hasn't figure it out -- but it is true.  feralA is real, and on most CDs from at least before 1994.   Some CDs, believe it or not, have raw DolbyA (NENA, 99 Red Balloons.)

 

John

 

[John Dyson]

11 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

Again, you actually believe people in the industry were so incompetent that this occurred for years and years, and not a single indvidual associated with recording didn't notice, in this whole time ... ?

Perhaps you are chatting with a genius, and just dont' respect or understand it??? :-).  Note that there hasn't been an *ACCURATE* SW DolbyA decoder until now either.

Think about it...

 

John

 

[Ralf11]

16 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 Australian Protestor buries his head in sand.

 

Is that the PM ??

 

Maybe he is trying to find someone to shake his hand...

[fas42]

4 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 If these recent remastered recordings appear to have no treble to YOUR ears, this means that the Remastering Engineer has tried to EQ OVER the  non decoded Dolby A of many of the earlier releases, which confirms that John is indeed correct with what he is doing .

 

Alex, the real world does have treble, whether you like it or not - stand in front of a live trumpet ,or next to a drum kit where the cymbals are being given a workout; real instruments produce such sounds  - the lack of realistic treble in a recording is cartoonlike, and serves no gods ...

[fas42]

2 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

 

Is that the PM ??

 

Maybe he is trying to find someone to shake his hand...

 

Hey, we likee the boy ...

 

 

[John Dyson]

3 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

Alex, the real world does have treble, whether you like it or not - stand in front of a live trumpet ,or next to a drum kit where the cymbals are being given a workout; real instruments produce such sounds  - the lack of realistic treble in a recording is cartoonlike, and serves no gods ...

Treble or bass -- all I am interested in is an accurate signal as the artist & recording engineer created.  After that, then you can use your treble/bass or whatever shelving filters or parametric type filters to hearts content.  Feral-A does not sound like the vinyl equivalents because it isn't properly mastered -- simple as that.

 

John

 

[fas42]

4 minutes ago, John Dyson said:

Treble or bass -- all I am interested in is an accurate signal as the artist & recording engineer created.  After that, then you can use your treble/bass or whatever shelving filters or parametric type filters to hearts content.  Feral-A does not sound like the vinyl equivalents because it isn't properly mastered -- simple as that.

 

John

 

 

Unfortunately, this comes back to who decides what the "accurate signal as the artist & recording engineer created" is .. how about, you get confirmation from the recording artist, say, that one of your decodings is exactly what he intended ... 😝 😁.

 

Not intended as a negative ... but it would be useful to "close the circle" ...

[John Dyson]

Here is a wonderful example that the feralA does...  Guess which is which?

 

BTW -- the reason why I sometimes make errors in decoding is that the feralEQ is variable enough that it must be selected (not adjusted) for each album.  There are several specific sets of frequencies for the EQ.  There MUST have been an industry standard.  There is no metadata sent along with the CD that says what parameters that they used for the 'response shaping'...

Professional decoding is done before the feral EQ distortion as imposed on the customers version of the recording, therefore much easier.

 

 

09.Going Out Of My Head-feralA.mp3 09.Going Out Of My Head-decoded.mp3

[John Dyson]

Just now, fas42 said:

 

Unfortunately, this comes back to who decides what the "accurate signal as the artist & recording engineer created" is .. how about, you get confirmation from the recording artist, say, that one of your decodings is exactly what he intended ... 😝 😁.

 

Not intended as a negative ... but it would be useful to "close the circle" ...

More than likely, it is what went into the DolbyA/tape recorder the first time.  Of course, that means decoded material as can be produced by the feralA decoding operation.

 

John

 

[fas42]

8 minutes ago, John Dyson said:

Here is a wonderful example that the feralA does...  Guess which is which?

 

BTW -- the reason why I sometimes make errors in decoding is that the feralEQ is variable enough that it must be selected (not adjusted) for each album.  There are several specific sets of frequencies for the EQ.  There MUST have been an industry standard.  There is no metadata sent along with the CD that says what parameters that they used for the 'response shaping'...

 

 

09.Going Out Of My Head-feralA.mp3 1.6 MB · 0 downloads 09.Going Out Of My Head-decoded.mp3 1.57 MB · 1 download

 

One version sounds like it has a real piano, and cymbals; the other is muffled in comparison ... hmmmm

[John Dyson]

3 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

One version sounds like it has a real piano, and cymbals; the other is muffled in comparison ... hmmmm

Actually, you are listenign to old ambiance type recording -- probably some kind of quad master.  You lose all of the space in the feral version.  Just flat and ugly & fake/edgy highs.

 

It has always been a subject of investigation because it sounded so bad... 

 

Wait until Herb Alpert & Tijuana Brass comes off the presses -- you can hear where every instrument is in space.  Instead of the flat, ugly sound...  It really bothered me for these years...

 

John

[sandyk]

22 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

Alex, the real world does have treble, whether you like it or not - stand in front of a live trumpet ,or next to a drum kit where the cymbals are being given a workout; real instruments produce such sounds  - the lack of realistic treble in a recording is cartoonlike, and serves no gods …

 Perhaps you have been standing directly in front of too many live trumpets , or next to too many drum kits ?

 I once had a workmate like this who we nicknamed DC-1. People used to make smart ass comments behind his back.

 Then one day when he drove me home from work he told me that he had his ears syringed by a Doctor earlier in the day , and the rustling of his vinyl jacket was annoying the hell out of him.

 He didn't let on about this at work for a few days though, and caught some of the others out beautifully.

[mansr]

30 minutes ago, John Dyson said:

I find it to be amazing that someone else hasn't figure it out -- but it is true.  feralA is real, and on most CDs from at least before 1994.   Some CDs, believe it or not, have raw DolbyA (NENA, 99 Red Balloons.)

The Nena sample you posted a while back should be enough to convince anyone.

 

As for incompetence, I'm not the least bit surprised. The recording industry is notoriously bad at keeping accurate records (the irony). Whoever was tasked with preparing the CD release likely had, at best, some illegible notes scrawled on a used napkin from which to decide how to best process the tapes. The same person likely wasn't paid enough to make any effort beyond the minimum required to put silver discs on the store shelves. It's sad but true.

[Samuel T Cogley]

2 minutes ago, John Dyson said:

Wait until Herb Alpert & Tijuana Brass comes off the presses -- you can hear where every instrument is in space.  Instead of the flat, ugly sound...  It really bothered me for these years...

 

Can't wait John!

[Samuel T Cogley]

Just now, mansr said:

The Nena sample you posted a while back should be enough to convince anyone.

 

As for incompetence, I'm not the least bit surprised. The recording industry is notoriously bad at keeping accurate records (the irony). Whoever was tasked with preparing the CD release likely had, at best, some illegible notes scrawled on a used napkin from which to decide how to best process the tapes. The same person likely wasn't paid enough to make any effort beyond the minimum required to put silver discs on the store shelves. It's sad but true.

 

Hoffman has posted the annotations from master tapes over the years, and you're right.  Often it's barely legible scrawl.

[John Dyson]

Just now, Samuel T Cogley said:

 

Can't wait John!

Yea -- the frustrating thing was that the Brasil'66 is only so-so, but is 'interesting'.  The Tijuana brass is cool.  Tijuana isn't off the presses yet -- the damned decoding in high quality mode is so slow.  Lately, with the better EQ, the anti-distortion seems to be needed less, so maybe might back off some of the sideband trimming to speed things up...

(BTW, apologize for my earlier comment about genius -- you know that I am not, just persistent :-)).

 

John

 

[fas42]

3 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 Perhaps you have been standing directly in front of too many live trumpets , or next to too many drum kits ?

 I once had a workmate like this who we nicknamed DC-1. People used to make smart ass comments behind his back.

 Then one day when he drove me home from work he told me that he had his ears syringed by a Doctor earlier in the day , and the rustling of his vinyl jacket was annoying the hell out of him.

 He didn't let on about this at work for a few days though, and caught some of the others out beautifully.

 

It's a good exercise moving in close to musicians doing their thing - I've mentioned several times that we regularly bump into buskers at the local Aldi - no PA, just pure acoustic sound. An excellent way of recalibrating one's ears, to the intensity, and "thereness" of the raw thing - so far from the usual "high end" sound, it ain't funny ... 😉.

[John Dyson]

47 minutes ago, John Dyson said:

Here is a wonderful example that the feralA does...  Guess which is which?

 

BTW -- the reason why I sometimes make errors in decoding is that the feralEQ is variable enough that it must be selected (not adjusted) for each album.  There are several specific sets of frequencies for the EQ.  There MUST have been an industry standard.  There is no metadata sent along with the CD that says what parameters that they used for the 'response shaping'...

Professional decoding is done before the feral EQ distortion as imposed on the customers version of the recording, therefore much easier.

 

 

09.Going Out Of My Head-feralA.mp3 1.6 MB · 1 download 09.Going Out Of My Head-decoded.mp3 1.57 MB · 2 downloads

STUPID ME -- I made a mistake in the decoding...  Nothing major, just didn't get the same results as when I did the decode manually.

I won't explain the whole set of mistakes, but when I demo some Tijuana Brass, I'll show this same cut as corrected...  GEESH -- really stupid-headed mistake.

 

John

 

[Ralf11]

1 hour ago, fas42 said:

 

Hey, we likee the boy ...

 

 

So, there is no chance that we could trade you ours for yours?  We could throw in some drones too if that will help...

 

or possums

[STC]

6 hours ago, SJK said:

 

3 is not surprising because any kind of noise filter somehow affects the SS. 
 

The problem with AB these files is about finding the way to eliminate the difference that cause by the interaction from phono to the next equipment. 
 

Unless you capture the sound from cartridge and feed the digital rip through the phono stage ?  Possible? 😇

[John Dyson]

4 hours ago, John Dyson said:

Here is a wonderful example that the feralA does...  Guess which is which?

 

BTW -- the reason why I sometimes make errors in decoding is that the feralEQ is variable enough that it must be selected (not adjusted) for each album.  There are several specific sets of frequencies for the EQ.  There MUST have been an industry standard.  There is no metadata sent along with the CD that says what parameters that they used for the 'response shaping'...

Professional decoding is done before the feral EQ distortion as imposed on the customers version of the recording, therefore much easier.

 

 

09.Going Out Of My Head-feralA.mp3 1.6 MB · 1 download 09.Going Out Of My Head-decoded.mp3 1.57 MB · 2 downloads

Finally, I got the exact sound that I was looking for -- there is a big difference between a quick decode, and professional caliber result.

I am not happy with a few things, but I know that the EQ is producing perfect DolbyA, but some things I am not 100% happy with.

 

Notice the quiet mellowness, but the sound is clean.   The vocal chorus is clean and distinct.  It is so easy for that chorus (the two vocals) to be all mangled.   Of course, feral material won't mangle the chorus, but the chorus in the feral version sounds bunched up, and can even sound like a buzz saw in the more egregious cases. Also, with the undecoded material there are other problems with the HF compression and the losss of imaging.

 

The only real negative of decoding the material (assuming that it doesn't distort because of the fast gain control), is that the result is less bright, and less processed.  There is something reassuring about the compressed vocal sibilance, but it isn't real.

 

Sorry about the botched example, but I still think that it is better than the compressed stuff (just my opinon) -- it is okay to disagree!!!

 

Here is the improved one, and there will be a run of samples in the public forum, and the test group will have access to some results for review.  Sorry about the mp3, but spending 10MB of forum space for a flac snippet doesn't seem to be worth it.  The mp3 is just barely good enough.

 

John

 

09.Going Out Of My Head-decodedA.mp3

[fas42]

Hmmm, better ... but the "feral" still gives the clearest rendition - in particular, the acoustics of the percussion, voice, and piano very nicely separate, are 'cleaner'.

[sandyk]

5 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

 

Is that the PM ??

 

Maybe he is trying to find someone to shake his hand...

 

It looks more like a golden opportunity to kick his arse !