Lies about vinyl vs digital

[Don Hills]

6 hours ago, Axial said:

...Digital doesn't fill the gaps...reconstructing the waveform by filling the missing parts? ... 

 

Yeah, that's the bit that people get wrong. Simple, intuitive - and wrong.

Monty's video is good for those who prefer visuals, or there's this:

Start with the original analog signal. The ADC samples it at regular intervals. Between those intervals, the analog signal continues to vary. The mistake is in assuming that because the "in between" values weren't sampled, they are lost. But the Nyquist theorem proves that we know exactly what the "lost" values were at any moment between the samples.The DAC converter stage then has to accurately reproduce the sample values at the same regular intervals in time. Competent DACs can do that, even filterless. The difference is in what happens in between the sample intervals. A filterless DAC outputs the same value for a whole sample period. A properly filtered DAC produces values in between the sample periods that accurately match the original analog values that existed between the samples.

[STC]

5 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

But would you buy such a vehicle to only use as a shopping basket? If you're mad, perhaps so - but it's highly likely you would be pretty disappointed if in an emergency driving situation that it reacted only as well as a cheap, true shopping value only vehicle.

 

You the one who suggested that.

 

High fidelity is about recreating the audio event as close as how it would sound in real. They started with mono and then moved to stereo then they wanted more realism and moved on to 5.1, 9.1 and so on.  During the initial transition from mono to stereo, there was some resistant but the world moved on. If you are after speed and control then get the car for that. It is an exercise in futility to modify the Porsche and expecting it to perform like the F1 car. The purpose here is speed and control. The same applies to audio. 

 

[PeterSt]

3 hours ago, PeterSt said:

Now I'd like to have a real life example of what you mean. And not a theoretical one. A real example (album, track).

 

2 hours ago, fas42 said:

It's not the track that matters, it's the playback system

 

So you can't. Plus you explicitly avoid the question. Mweh.

[Ralf11]

36 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

@Ralf11 obligatory audio comment...

 

you need this:

 

https://www.porsche.com/usa/accessoriesandservices/classic/genuineparts/producthighlights/navi/

 

Nein!!

 

Das ist ein radio moderne - frum das 1980s.

 

Here is a Becker Mexico updated for today:

 

 

 

 

[fas42]

Ummm, the purpose is to hear the recording, and only the recording. In my book anyway. Any "speed and control" are part of the recording, what was 'designed into' the music as a creative exercise. In the car world, the road serves the car, in the sense that you're talking about what's possible; in the audio world, the playback rig serves the recording - one can't do better than reveal totally what is on the recording - unless one wants to do one's own mastering of the sound; which is the general thrust of your efforts

[AudioDoctor]

@Ralf11 that one certainly has a more classic look to it. I still prefer the Porsche one.

 

Have we discussed whether or not we can enjoy both digital and vinyl?  I do. I was just sitting here with my eyes closed listening to the beautiful music coming out of ROON into my MAC7200 and then to my speakers here on my desktop. Definitely enjoyed it as much as I do any vinyl playback. For me I think vinyl has nostalgia and I enjoy the process of playing it. Between Qobuz, my CD collection, and downloads, I have thousands of digital albums.

[STC]

11 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

 

 

So you can't. Plus you explicitly avoid the question. Mweh.

 

Have you noticed that he managed to repeat the same stuff without a single picture of his system, the solder, sound, and almost nothing. Yet, he somehow always managed to get others attention. He doesn’t lose patience, always answers questions and skillfully avoids probing ones.  

[fas42]

6 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

 

 

So you can't. Plus you explicitly avoid the question. Mweh.

 

Peter, I think you're misunderstanding my original point - if you care to examine any testing of bass drivers, including the manufacturer's own graphs; they all "get worse" the lower the frequency - higher and higher levels of harmonic distortion, bound by the limits of the physical nature of their operation. Unless a user goes to a huge amount of, expensive, trouble to lessen the load on individual drivers then there is no real way of getting around this, as far as I know.

[Ralf11]

I don't play vinyl while driving.  That Becker is NLA - it was $1200 when they were making it but I thought that price was nuts.  I'd spend $400 on something like it tho.  I have a Nak head unit I can stick in the dash or can keep looking for something else.

 

I have kept a very few MFSL LPs etc. but don't have a turntable for them (except an antique one which needs a needle anyway) - OTOH I have a couple of vinyl rips to files which sound pretty decent.

 

I've lost interest in the process of playing an LP, tho still sometimes use a hand chisel on wood ...

[fas42]

Just now, STC said:

 

Have you noticed that he managed to repeat the same stuff without a single picture of his system, the solder, sound, and almost nothing. Yet, he somehow always managed to get others attention. He doesn’t lose patience, always answers questions and skillfully avoids probing ones.  

 

A single picture of the sound??

[Axial]

56 minutes ago, Don Hills said:

 

Yeah, that's the bit that people get wrong. Simple, intuitive - and wrong.

Monty's video is good for those who prefer visuals, or there's this:

Start with the original analog signal. The ADC samples it at regular intervals. Between those intervals, the analog signal continues to vary. The mistake is in assuming that because the "in between" values weren't sampled, they are lost. But the Nyquist theorem proves that we know exactly what the "lost" values were at any moment between the samples.The DAC converter stage then has to accurately reproduce the sample values at the same regular intervals in time. Competent DACs can do that, even filterless. The difference is in what happens in between the sample intervals. A filterless DAC outputs the same value for a whole sample period. A properly filtered DAC produces values in between the sample periods that accurately match the original analog values that existed between the samples.

 

You said "competent DACs"; how many of those exist? 

[STC]

17 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

A single picture of the sound??

 

Yet again you avoided answering the point that not a single evidence of you tweaks provided so far. 

[PeterSt]

30 minutes ago, fas42 said:

Peter, I think you're misunderstanding my original point - if you care to examine any testing of bass drivers, including the manufacturer's own graphs; they all "get worse" the lower the frequency - higher and higher levels of harmonic distortion, bound by the limits of the physical nature of their operation.

 

And you are telling ME ? funny.

So I misunderstand nothing. But you misunderstand why I ask the question. And that while you think it is your subject. Hmm.

 

32 minutes ago, fas42 said:

Unless a user goes to a huge amount of, expensive, trouble to lessen the load on individual drivers then there is no real way of getting around this, as far as I know.

 

Useless without example. Frank, maybe it is time that you stop your theoretical blah and get practical.

Example please.

[esldude]

52 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

I don't play vinyl while driving.  That Becker is NLA - it was $1200 when they were making it but I thought that price was nuts.  I'd spend $400 on something like it tho.  I have a Nak head unit I can stick in the dash or can keep looking for something else.

 

I have kept a very few MFSL LPs etc. but don't have a turntable for them (except an antique one which needs a needle anyway) - OTOH I have a couple of vinyl rips to files which sound pretty decent.

 

I've lost interest in the process of playing an LP, tho still sometimes use a hand chisel on wood ...

You don't play vinyl while driving...........?????

Okay does that include a cassette tape of a vinyl LP played in the Nak head unit if you install it?  That would be playing vinyl on acetate while driving at that. 

[esldude]

41 minutes ago, Axial said:

 

You said "competent DACs"; how many of those exist? 

Plenty.  Some number in the millions at least. 

[STC]

 

 

 

[PeterSt]

1 hour ago, STC said:

 

 

 

 

So we made that ? we must be crazy.

 

Luckily the YouTube shows all twice, as a self respecting YouTuber should do it. A second time with a different single apparently was impossible.

Anyway great stuff. I didn't know it exist(ed).

[fas42]

2 hours ago, STC said:

 

Yet again you avoided answering the point that not a single evidence of you tweaks provided so far. 

 

This is getting pretty silly now - you want evidence that I can solder two wires together, for example? As nearly everyone does, you are deliberately avoiding the key point in what I am always talking about - if one deliberately targets audible faults in the sound, determines causes for those faults, and resolves or bypasses the issues; then a very high standard of replay will automatically emerge ... a particular, individual tweak in itself is completely meaningless, as useful as proudly pointing to a bolt that you tightened up on a dodgy bridge.

 

The 'evidence' is whether the SQ delivers or not - which can't be done unless you're there in the flesh, listening to the gear. And I have had plenty of instances already where hard boiled audiophiles are miles from "getting it" - unless their favoured, 'audiophile' recording sounds exactly like they expect it to sound, only 'better' ... well, you haven't scored ...

[fas42]

1 hour ago, PeterSt said:

 

Useless without example. Frank, maybe it is time that you stop your theoretical blah and get practical.

Example please.

 

No, we'll approach this a different way. Can you tell me what the level of the 2nd and 3rd harmonics of your speakers are, when driven by a 20Hz signal to various output levels? If not, why don't you think that's important?

[sandyk]

2 hours ago, esldude said:

Plenty.  Some number in the millions at least. 

You probably class the attached as competent too  ?  

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/55514-so-how-does-a-1299-dac-sound/

 

 

[semente]

10 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

I did - and the subjective impressions of the sound tick the boxes ... it isn't the fact that the player produces all sorts of terrible measurments that's the story; it's that key parts of the SQ are done right - the designer is just using another approach to avoid the digital processing originating anomalies that often disturb the pleasure when listening - I heard a CAL player 30 years that had a "nice" sound - its failures were of omission; half of the CD content was completely missing.

 

I never read the subjective impressions.

But I did listen to an all-Audio Note system for a bit with my selection of music and it sounded rubbish...

[STC]

1 hour ago, fas42 said:

 

This is getting pretty silly now - you want evidence that I can solder two wires together, for example?

 

I wasn’t but then why not. Let’s see your soldering quality. 

 

1 hour ago, fas42 said:

 

As nearly everyone does, you are deliberately avoiding the key point in what I am always talking about - if one deliberately targets audible faults in the sound,

 

We all do. That’s what audio engineering is about. 

 

1 hour ago, fas42 said:

 

 

determines causes for those faults,

 

Yes. And as you can see feom my inside the high end thread that’s what most do. 

1 hour ago, fas42 said:

 

 

and resolves or bypasses the issues;

 

Otherwise why bother if you do nit know how to solve. 

1 hour ago, fas42 said:

 

 

then a very high standard of replay will automatically emerge

 

Yes. This applies to all problems. Even quack doctors follow this procedure except the last part where they will blame “it is inside your head”. 

 

Wait a minute this sounds familiar. 

 

 

[STC]

3 hours ago, PeterSt said:

Example please

 

It will never come. IIRC, he was using Sharp speakers and Nad. 

 

I am now questioning myself why he managed to attract responses despite provided zero evidence of what he claimed to be capable of.

 

Maybe this is not about audio. Is Frank analyzing audiophiles’ mind?  

[fas42]

51 minutes ago, semente said:

 

I never read the subjective impressions.

But I did listen to an all-Audio Note system for a bit with my selection of music and it sounded rubbish...

 

I also have heard a terrible all-Audio Note system - therefore, all Audio Note components used in any system will make the sound unpalatable.

[fas42]

8 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

A lot of everything ... to be able put on on any recording, and not have the music captured on it compromised by the capability of the playback rig. In the first instance that means that it become impossible to detect that it is in fact a playback system, irrespective of where you listen to it; next goal, to be able to go to any sane volume level - this corresponds to the pure speed of the F1, say; final dollop of cream, to extend the bass to the deepest reaches of the recording with complete integrity - this last one is the most expensive, and the least value for money exercise to pursue - just getting drivers that won't generate audible distortion at reasonable output levels is a major exercise; I'm not interested in false bass.

 

I've got a funny feeling that some people's brains have jumped the rails, and believe that I'm claiming my current rig does all this ...umm, no ...

 

That response was an answer to STC asking

 

Quote

That's where the confusion lies.  That is, what are you after? Ultimate speed and control or little bit of everything?

 

Now, there's a bit of a difference between, "what are you after?", and, "what I currently have" ...