Why!? Please Tell Me Why!

[gmgraves]

3 hours ago, Speedskater said:

The Apogee's may place the greatest demands on speaker cables and power amplifiers of all the good speakers ever made.

That's the way it seemed. What was funny was that the cable Apogee sent me was Swedish, made by a company called Symo. It looked very similar to the cheap monster stuff with the slightly skin colored transparent plastic insulation. The wire itself was wound tighter, but still, it reminded me of the 12 Ga monster stuff. It did not sound like it though! 

[fas42]

On 18/04/2018 at 4:56 PM, STC said:

 

What do you mean by " speakers becoming impossible to distinguish" ? I can easily pick out two different brand easily under blind test. If you meant to say the speakers disappearing and sound floats outside the physical location then that is easily attainable. 

 

As I've mentioned many times, the speakers disappearing means that even if one listens with one's ear only inches from a cone driver, of one from a pair of stereo speakers, that the soundfield doesn't collapse - you hear "through the speaker". People achieve this type of behaviour from panel speakers, but the conventional dynamic speaker also enables this - it's just harder, that's all.

[gmgraves]

6 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

As I've mentioned many times, the speakers disappearing means that even if one listens with one's ear only inches from a cone driver, of one from a pair of stereo speakers, that the soundfield doesn't collapse - you hear "through the speaker". People achieve this type of behaviour from panel speakers, but the conventional dynamic speaker also enables this - it's just harder, that's all.

Either you aren't explaining this phenomenon very well, or you're talking through your hat again, Frank. Because under no circumstances can you put your ear inches away from one speaker in a stereo pair and still hear both speakers with a perfect stereo sound field. All you're gonna hear is that speaker dominating.

That's like saying that you can sit in front of a band with your ear inches from the first trumpet and still hear all the other instruments in perfect balance. Not in this galaxy!

[beancounter]

10 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

That's like saying that you can sit in front of a band with your ear inches from the first trumpet and still hear all the other instruments in perfect balance. Not in this galaxy!

 

Gee, you didn't happen to sit in front of me in the double reeds section, did you?

[opus101]

23 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

All you're gonna hear is that speaker dominating.

 

That's not what happens when the speakers have disappeared fully. They don't sound like they're a source at all. Only last Friday I heard this same effect on a system at a show in Shanghai with MBL's speakers and amp.

[STC]

14 minutes ago, opus101 said:

 

That's not what happens when the speakers have disappeared fully. They don't sound like they're a source at all. Only last Friday I heard this same effect on a system at a show in Shanghai with MBL's speakers and amp.

 

Speakers disappearing is possible when the image floats beyond the physical boundaries of the speakers. However, with one speakers such phantom imaging is impossible. The sound comes from where it originates. To say that a single speaker can disappear when you move away from the sweet spot is like describing an instrument disappearing. That’s not possible. 

 

Sometimes, we may describe the absence of coloration of the speakers as disappearing. 

[opus101]

10 minutes ago, STC said:

However, with one speakers such phantom imaging is impossible.

 

Just for clarity here, I'm talking about a pair of speakers disappearing, not a single one.

[gmgraves]

38 minutes ago, beancounter said:

 

Gee, you didn't happen to sit in front of me in the double reeds section, did you?

Could be. I get around!

[fas42]

I had the same thing happen for me with a MBL system, where each component was the best they made, about 15 years ago. It was a super high end show, where the MBL rig was fine tuned by a woman from the head company in Germany ... this reinvigorated me get back into the audio game, because I knew the same behaviour could be had from very "ordinary" gear.

[fas42]

8 hours ago, gmgraves said:

Either you aren't explaining this phenomenon very well, or you're talking through your hat again, Frank. Because under no circumstances can you put your ear inches away from one speaker in a stereo pair and still hear both speakers with a perfect stereo sound field. All you're gonna hear is that speaker dominating.

That's like saying that you can sit in front of a band with your ear inches from the first trumpet and still hear all the other instruments in perfect balance. Not in this galaxy!

 

I described it exactly ... you see, if there was a trumpet in the recording it wouldn't be located adjacent to the microphone on that side - yes, there can always be extremes in how things are recorded, but the normal idea of a recording is to 'place' the parts of the mix in reasonable positions in the whole - and that's what one hears in the "sweet spot" of a decent rig. The difference I talk of is that the sweet spot never disappears, no matter how absurd the listening position is; it never "pops out" of the 'holographic' presentation, no matter where you are in the room.

[fas42]

8 hours ago, STC said:

Sometimes, we may describe the absence of coloration of the speakers as disappearing. 

 

Just rephrase it as, "we may describe the absence of coloration of the system as disappearing", and that nails it ...

[esldude]

8 hours ago, opus101 said:

 

Just for clarity here, I'm talking about a pair of speakers disappearing, not a single one.

Yeah I HATE IT when listening in stereo and only one speaker disappears. 

[Ralf11]

if you twirl fast enough you can simulate stereo

[esldude]

Just now, Ralf11 said:

if you twirl fast enough you can simulate stereo

Wouldn't that be surround?

[Ralf11]

depends on how you phase your rpm's (mostly) 

 

minor effects depending on differences in shape of L vs R ear

[esldude]

Just now, Ralf11 said:

depends on how you phase your rpm's

The ATMOS twirl is the one that will get you.

[Ralf11]

Like this:

 

 

 

but swap the output for your input

[STC]

16 hours ago, fas42 said:

if one listens with one's ear only inches from a cone driver, of one from a pair of stereo speakers, that the soundfield doesn't collapse - you hear "through the speaker"

 

@opus101, I was referring to earlier quote of fas24 and thought you were referring to the same too. 

[esldude]

Just now, Ralf11 said:

Like this:

 

 

 

but swap the output for your input

 

 

Make the wheel bigger and twirl it right and you could create actual front to back depth. 

[Ralf11]

I was gonna post my favorite front to back audiophile cartoon (from Peter Aczel's rag) but I don't see it on Gloggle...

 

it is very anatomical...

[fas42]

Gloggle?? ... hmmm, I might start a new company, with that spiffy name ...

[Ralf11]

Gloggle is a very carefully tuned version of Google - you see what I do is take the normal idea of a search, which is to 'place' the parts of the results in reasonable positions in the whole list of hits - and that's what one sees in the "sweet spot" of a decent search engine. The difference I talk of is that the sweet spot never disappears, no matter how absurd the search terms are; it never "pops out" of the 'holographic' presentation, no matter where you are in the computer room.

[fas42]

31 minutes ago, STC said:

 

@opus101, I was referring to earlier quote of fas24 and thought you were referring to the same too. 

 

A speaker is just a speaker, irrespective of how flash, esoteric the design appears - whether it's omni watermelons, or "direct" plates the same principles are used to pulse air movement - this becomes clear when vastly different designs end up presenting the same sound field, subjectively.

[GregWormald]

10 hours ago, gmgraves said:

<snip>under no circumstances can you put your ear inches away from one speaker in a stereo pair and still hear both speakers with a perfect stereo sound field. All you're gonna hear is that speaker dominating.

That's like saying that you can sit in front of a band with your ear inches from the first trumpet and still hear all the other instruments in perfect balance. Not in this galaxy!

 

Correct. 

 

As well, the absolute synchronisation of the sound waves from each instrument that are present in the original performance are lost as the sound of each instrument comes from two (or more) sources that are not equidistant from the perceiving organs. (This phenomenon is also involved in why some of the "old style" recordings made with a stereo pair of microphones can sound uncannily real.)

 

Omnidirectional speakers or similar (MBL, Bose) can sometimes give the impression of balanced sound from any position in the room but it's not actually true. The imaging will always suffer outside the sweet spot.

[fas42]

2 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

Gloggle is a very carefully tuned version of Google - you see what I do is take the normal idea of a search, which is to 'place' the parts of the results in reasonable positions in the whole list of hits - and that's what one sees in the "sweet spot" of a decent search engine. The difference I talk of is that the sweet spot never disappears, no matter how absurd the search terms are; it never "pops out" of the 'holographic' presentation, no matter where you are in the computer room.

 

An appropriate punishment ...