Why!? Please Tell Me Why!

[gmgraves]

3 hours ago, fas42 said:

And yet again you show that you do understand what can happen - you need to realise that what I'm talking about is a natural extension of what your brain has done, for that "special" recording. And you also mention a "special" speaker, the MBLs. Both of these factors have enhanced the quality of the playback, so that your brain has been able to grok it.

I do understand what is going on, sure, but it's not what you say it is. My brain. like anyone else's brain processes what it hears. What it does not do is create what isn't there!

 

3 hours ago, fas42 said:

How the speakers work is only a small part of the overall requirements to enable this illusion - the level of competence of the whole is the most critical factor .. you see, I went and heard the most expensive MBL system possible, about 15 years ago, and thought, Well done! That's presenting a soundstage as good as the bottom of the line bookshelf B&Ws delivered to me, 15 years earlier - they are learning!

 

B&Ws are not omnidirectional. and weren't 15 years ago either. 

 

3 hours ago, fas42 said:

If you keep trying to insinuate that I talking about something bizarre, it might make some of the people here happy - but you're missing a chance of getting a better handle on things ... the industry is not being ruined  by scammers and robbers, but by consumers being obsessed about being thrilled with shiny, expensive and impressive bits of kit - the show off factor.

The way you describe it, based upon your oft touted (but mostly unexplained) "methodology" it does sound bizarre.

[gmgraves]

3 hours ago, accwai said:

 

Hmm... Streets around here are filled with jaw droppingly expensive cars. Nissan GT-R are everywhere. A few weeks back, I was parked next a Lamborghini Aventador that's like almost $1/2M. Then two days ago, I was side by side with a Lamborghini Huracán at a traffic light. I think it's the "cheap" two wheel drive V8 version. But still, top of the driver's head is like at my eye level. That's surreal And two days before that, there was a McLaren coming onto a nearby main avenue from a neighborhood that I normally avoid because potholes are all over the place in there. Must be even rougher for something like McLaren. If these cars are consumer based to you, you're living in a very different world than mine. But hey, it's a big world. No matter where one stands, there will almost always be somebody way above that.

 

As for throwing those responsible in jail, sure! Performance for these cars are so far above what's needed for mass transportation that these cars would have no other purpose than to pull dangerous stunts on public roads. People who make, push and buy this stuff should rot in prison for out and out illegal sh$^%#$!t. And not just cars. Wine and art have been pointed out here at CA not long ago. And obviously camera stuff too. These elitist counter-revolutionaries must be nipped in the bud now!

I think I write clearly. I'm reasonably literate, yet I write things and people answer with responses that have nothing whatsoever to do with my post. Take this one for instance. I'm talking about how high-end audio accessories have no seeming parallel in other hobbies like cars, video and computers, and "accwai" comes back with how many super and hyper cars he sees in his local! To put that in perspective, it's like me talking about vinyl record "demagnetizers" being useless mouse-milk, and "accwai" coming back with some anecdote about a dCS Vivaldi DAC. Makes no sense.

I mention that those people making and selling these snake-oil audio products should be in jail rather than enjoying the fruits of their ill-gotten-gains, and "accwai" responds with an agreement that people who make Lamborghinis, McLarens, and other high-end automobiles should be in jail. When that's not what I said, intimated or or even contemplated at all! That's like saying that the people who make DartZeel, D'agostino, Pass, and other ultra high-end audio gear should likewise be jailed! Makes no sense.

[fas42]

3 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

I do understand what is going on, sure, but it's not what you say it is. My brain. like anyone else's brain processes what it hears. What it does not do is create what isn't there!

 

Sorry to disappoint you, but it is there ... you know how one listens to some recordings, and it sounds very messy, confused - trademarks of a "lousy recording", shall we say? Well, that messiness is all the critical detail, which is bound up with playback distortion - it's indecipherable, on normal playback. So, remove the layer of reproduction distortion, and the detail snaps into focus - "it all makes sense".

 

3 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

B&Ws are not omnidirectional. and weren't 15 years ago either. 

 

Which is my point. Extremely conventional, low priced speakers produce the "omnidirectional sound", if driven properly.

 

3 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

The way you describe it, based upon your oft touted (but mostly unexplained) "methodology" it does sound bizarre.

 

The methodology is to identify flaws in the playback rig, and sort them out. This is why good software is a joy to use, and buggy programs are a nightmare - the differences between the two as a measurable thing can be tiny, but the user experience is at the opposite ends of the spectrum, subjectively.

[gmgraves]

1 minute ago, fas42 said:

Sorry to disappoint you, but it is there ... you know how one listens to some recordings, and it sounds very messy, confused - trademarks of a "lousy recording", shall we say? Well, that messiness is all the critical detail, which is bound up with playback distortion - it's indecipherable, on normal playback. So, remove the layer of reproduction distortion, and the detail snaps into focus - "it all makes sense".

 

Ridiculous. You can't fix a lousy recording with playback. It's useless to discuss this with you. You are in another universe. 

[marce]

4 hours ago, accwai said:

 

Hmm... Streets around here are filled with jaw droppingly expensive cars. Nissan GT-R are everywhere. A few weeks back, I was parked next a Lamborghini Aventador that's like almost $1/2M. Then two days ago, I was side by side with a Lamborghini Huracán at a traffic light. I think it's the "cheap" two wheel drive V8 version. But still, top of the driver's head is like at my eye level. That's surreal And two days before that, there was a McLaren coming onto a nearby main avenue from a neighborhood that I normally avoid because potholes are all over the place in there. Must be even rougher for something like McLaren. If these cars are consumer based to you, you're living in a very different world than mine. But hey, it's a big world. No matter where one stands, there will almost always be somebody way above that.

 

As for throwing those responsible in jail, sure! Performance for these cars are so far above what's needed for mass transportation that these cars would have no other purpose than to pull dangerous stunts on public roads. People who make, push and buy this stuff should rot in prison for out and out illegal sh$^%#$!t. And not just cars. Wine and art have been pointed out here at CA not long ago. And obviously camera stuff too. These elitist counter-revolutionaries must be nipped in the bud now!

You totally missed the point of the post you quoted... It was regarding selling add-ons not the actual main kit itself...

[Summit]

7 hours ago, gmgraves said:

Since I have Martin-Logan ESLs, I will say that they have better horizontal dispersion than many speakers and do throw a wide stereo image, but not THAT wide!

 

Martin-Logan ESL’s speakers do not have better (mid and treble) dispersion than many other speakers. They have a curved panel to increase dispersion, but it’s still much less than most other speakers. To have less horizontal and vertical dispersion is often a good thing and result in less unwanted reflation from the sidewalls and ceiling.    

[Rexp]

1 hour ago, gmgraves said:

What you would consider an "anti-audiophile" and reality don't seem to have even a nodding acquaintance. An audiophile is someone who is interested in the reproduction of music in the home. It has nothing to do whether or not such a person is likely to fall for pseudo-science. Any person who spends a good portion of his disposable income in the pursuit of good and accurate sound, is by definition an audiophile. Just because a person happens to have a degree is electronics, physics, and/or acoustics, and therefore knows better than to fall for every bottle of snake-oil that comes on sale does not disqualify them from being audiophiles. And even if it did, It's not up to you to drive wedges in this community by fostering an "us vs. them" mentality here. 

You seem confused, let me ask you a question -what is your opinon of someone who buys the featured cables?

[fas42]

1 hour ago, gmgraves said:

Ridiculous. You can't fix a lousy recording with playback. It's useless to discuss this with you. You are in another universe. 

 

The logic flaw in your thinking, which you seem to have great difficulty with, is that you assess a recording by listening to it. Which means a playback chain. You seem to have a belief that you miraculously have access to a playback chain with zero defects - perhaps because it's yours ... . Having noted that 99.9% of playback setups have clear problems, I somewhat doubt this ...

 

I work on the basis that if a certain playback configuration presents a recording with more detail, more vitality, more "musicality", a greater sense of a real event that occurred - that this is getting me closer to what the recording actually is about - if you work on the basis that an expensive rig which is making a recording sound lousy is giving you the real truth, well, at least you're in the majority, .

[Solstice380]

3 hours ago, gmgraves said:

Ridiculous. You can't fix a lousy recording with playback. It's useless to discuss this with you. You are in another universe. 

 

Totally agree that a “bad” recording can’t be fixed, but how many truly bad recordings do you have?  And, what is a bad one?  Low DR, muddy mix, no soundstage, too much sizzle on the top?  Many recordings check one of those boxes but are still well recorded.  Some remasters are better and some are just different (or worse).  I’m actually amazed how good some older recordings are.  I don’t think my dCS “fixes“ anything.  

[fas42]

1 hour ago, Solstice380 said:

...  I’m actually amazed how good some older recordings are.  ...

 

This was part of my 'enlightenment', that developed over many years - realising how one can push ever harder, to rescue even the most unlikely contenders ... I get a special satisfaction from getting the most recalcitrant albums to yield forth their inner delights; the end game is that any collection of CDs is always interesting to listen to.

[Hugo9000]

On 4/16/2018 at 7:23 PM, Nordkapp said:

So this image was posted earlier in another thread. I believe it was from AXPONA 2018. Regardless, can someone please comment on what in the hell the purpose of these "cables" could possibly be. I'm no E.E, but I have plenty of ideas of what one could use them for, other than electrical signals. These damned things just make me sad for our entire hobby.

 

When I saw those cables, my first thought was of those long balloons that people make into animals.   

 

 

[accwai]

5 hours ago, gmgraves said:

[...] To put that in perspective, it's like me talking about vinyl record "demagnetizers" being useless mouse-milk, and "accwai" coming back with some anecdote about a dCS Vivaldi DAC. Makes no sense.

I mention that those people making and selling these snake-oil audio products should be in jail rather than enjoying the fruits of their ill-gotten-gains, and "accwai" responds with an agreement that people who make Lamborghinis, McLarens, and other high-end automobiles should be in jail. When that's not what I said, intimated or or even contemplated at all! That's like saying that the people who make DartZeel, D'agostino, Pass, and other ultra high-end audio gear should likewise be jailed! Makes no sense.

 

Do you real believe the audio tweak industry has developed in a vacuum totally outside of the ultra high-end audio culture? You think a typical installation with dCS Vivaldi stack (not just the DAC), Dartzeel, D'Agostino, Pass/FirstWatt etc would not have outrageous looking cables, cable lifters and an RD-3 CD demag (small version of the vinyl demag flying saucer)? The article below states that ultra high-end mentality quite well I think:

 

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/stealth2/indra.html

 

And outrageous cables come in all sizes and shapes. Doesn't have to be obese to be crazy. Cables made of ultra thin amorphous metal conductor that go for $7k a meter is just as outrageous. See article above. So what makes you think ultra high-end and the strange tweak scenes are not one and the same? To me, it would be quite unimaginable to trash the fat python cable alone and not those Jadis electronics in the same photo. They feed off each other. Please enlighten us.

 

And once you start trashing the whole high end audio culture, high end cars, wine, art, cameras would all be fair game. After all, the seed mentalities are more or less the same. And I'm not suggesting makers and buyers should be jailed. Just wondering out loud where we'll end up if we push your logic to the extreme.

 

One other thing: I believe Porsche just grabbed 3rd place on the street legal car lap time record list at Nürburgring Nordschleife with a 911 GT3 RS. That displaces their own 918 Spyder time to 4th place. And they had to do this even when they've already got the first place on the list with a 911 GT2 RS. "Oh, we just want to proved it could be done *much* cheaper." Umm... Ok. That's the high-end mentality you know

 

[gmgraves]

9 hours ago, Rexp said:

Spoken like a true Anti Audiophile, go troll somewhere else.

No one who posts here is an "anti-audiophile" by definition. And you should really stop calling folks that. It' s a lot like an ultra Conservative calling someone a "traitor" because they are a Liberal Democrat. In both cases, the "other side" simply sees the situation differently based on their own criteria 

[accwai]

5 hours ago, marce said:

You totally missed the point of the post you quoted... It was regarding selling add-ons not the actual main kit itself...

 

Thanks for the clarification. So it's perfectly Ok to make this:

 

 

but making the stuff to transform that to this:

 

 

would be fair game for jail right? Now that's interesting. It is actually possible to drive out of a Toyota dealership with an 86 loaded with all kinds of Toyota Racing Development goodies that would take it very far from a showroom stock configuration. And most of these TRD parts show very little external signs. So you can't tell how much factory add-ons are inside the first one. We can throw Toyota in jail too right?

[gmgraves]

5 hours ago, Rexp said:

You seem confused, let me ask you a question -what is your opinon of someone who buys the featured cables?

I am anything but confused. I'm just tired of posters here calling people "anti-audiophiles" or false audiophiles simply because they might disagree with another poster's opinion. 

And what I think of someone who buys the featured cables is neither here nor there. People have a right to buy what they want. Just because the cable in question has no worth from an electrical standpoint doesn't obviate its "bling" appeal. If one can afford the price of a small car for something that doesn't really do anything special except look impressive, then, more power to them. 

[gmgraves]

2 hours ago, Solstice380 said:

 

Totally agree that a “bad” recording can’t be fixed, but how many truly bad recordings do you have?  And, what is a bad one?  Low DR, muddy mix, no soundstage, too much sizzle on the top?  Many recordings check one of those boxes but are still well recorded.  Some remasters are better and some are just different (or worse).  I’m actually amazed how good some older recordings are.  I don’t think my dCS “fixes“ anything.  

Quite a few actually. Every multi-miked/multi-track recording is a poor recording in my estimation. Every recording with compressed dynamic range is a poor recording. Then there are the recordings that are indifferently captured with sound that is too distant, or is pushed a little too far  (more of a problem in analog days than now. admittedly), and then there is defective vinyl. Warped records, eccentric records, records with underfill, records with too much regrind in the vinyl. Records that are noisy, etc., etc. etc. The point being not that there are so many bad recordings, but that there is so little one can do to fix a bad recording. You can't make an orchestral recording captured with a forest of microphones to 16 or 32 digital tracks, for instance, sound like stereophonic sound, because the information that makes stereo isn't there, and there is no "tweak" that one can apply to one's playback system to turn such a poor recording into a good one. That's my beef with Frank. He insists that his method of tweaking a system can correct for poor recordings, lousy playback equipment and bad listening rooms!

[gmgraves]

45 minutes ago, accwai said:

Do you real believe the audio tweak industry has developed in a vacuum totally outside of the ultra high-end audio culture?

How it developed is irrelevant and in no way alters the fact that your earlier post had nothing to do with what I was saying. I was talking about the audio industry being somewhat unique in the realm of hobbies in that there are more aftermarket dubious "accessories" sold into this hobby than others. It had nothing whatsoever to do with Nissan GT-Rs, Lamborghinis and McLarens. NOTHING! 

[gmgraves]

33 minutes ago, accwai said:

 

Thanks for the clarification. So it's perfectly Ok to make this:

 

 

but making the stuff to transform that to this:

 

 

would be fair game for jail right? Now that's interesting. It is actually possible to drive out of a Toyota dealership with an 86 loaded with all kinds of Toyota Racing Development goodies that would take it very far from a showroom stock configuration. And most of these TRD parts show very little external signs. So you can't tell how much factory add-ons are inside the first one. We can throw Toyota in jail too right?

You still miss the point. The add-on accessories on the car, shown above, all do something. They either enhance the car's performance, it's handling or it's looks. Tell me, what does the green pen do? What does a vinyl demagnetizer do? (Hint, there is nothing ferric in vinyl to get magnetized)  What does a and ugly brown speaker cable the size of a boa constrictor do? NOTHING beyond what other cables far smaller, and far cheaper can do exactly the same!

 

 

[gmgraves]

6 hours ago, Summit said:

 

Martin-Logan ESL’s speakers do not have better (mid and treble) dispersion than many other speakers. They have a curved panel to increase dispersion, but it’s still much less than most other speakers. To have less horizontal and vertical dispersion is often a good thing and result in less unwanted reflation from the sidewalls and ceiling.    

I didn't say Martin-Logan' s ESL speakers had better dispersion than all speakers, I said they had better dispersion than many speakers and they do. I can sit pretty much off-axis in my listening room and still get a decent stereo image. But my point to Frank was that there are limits...  

[gmgraves]

On 4/19/2018 at 5:06 PM, Ralf11 said:

Like this:

 

 

 

but swap the output for your input

Leslie Speaker. Working on the assumption that if you add enough vibrato to a Hammond you can actually make it sound like something other than it is (the worse sounding excuse for an organ ever developed). 

[Solstice380]

36 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

How it developed is irrelevant and in no way alters the fact that your earlier post had nothing to do with what I was saying. I was talking about the audio industry being somewhat unique in the realm of hobbies in that there are more aftermarket dubious "accessories" sold into this hobby than others. It had nothing whatsoever to do with Nissan GT-Rs, Lamborghinis and McLarens. NOTHING! 

 

I’m not gonna’ go down your rabbit hole on what’s a bad recording, your biases are readily apparent.  

 

On the the topic of car tweaking, I guess you’ve never seen a “low rider” or been to / heard of the Woodward Dream Cruise.  There’s a whole world of stuff out there if you're not a hermit with a closed mind.  

[accwai]

53 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

How it developed is irrelevant and in no way alters the fact that your earlier post had nothing to do with what I was saying. I was talking about the audio industry being somewhat unique in the realm of hobbies in that there are more aftermarket dubious "accessories" sold into this hobby than others. [...]

 

That's a rather unique view in itself. It seems to be far more prevalent here on CA to view the whole high end industry as dubious. Example: who can look at the price tag on a Kondo Ongaku with a straight face? I don't have direct experience with the Ongaku but I do know quite well a smaller scale implementation of that exact type of thing. Does it do anything special? Lets not talk about that since I don't want to go to jail.

 

43 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

You still miss the point. The add-on accessories on the car, shown above, all do something. They either enhance the car's performance, it's handling or it's looks. Tell me, what does the green pen do? What does a vinyl demagnetizer do? (Hint, there is nothing ferric in vinyl to get magnetized)  What does a and ugly brown speaker cable the size of a boa constrictor do? NOTHING beyond what other cables far smaller, and far cheaper can do exactly the same!

 

Don't know why you're so sure the add-on accessories have any effect. Can't tell myself since I've never driven one that's even close to stock. So who knows if they really work or are just all money grabbing snake-oil.

 

As for the vinyl demagnetizer, never used one either. These demagnetizers are not just for software though. They're often used on cable connectors and vacuum tubes as well. The vinyl version is supposed to be more powerful than the smaller CD version, which can also be used on cable connectors and vacuum tubes. And it can be used on blank CD-R before they're burnt. Does that make any difference? Once again lets not talk about that since I don't want to go to jail

 

Now the fat cable. Don't know much about it so I can say if it's anything special. Nothing beyond much smaller cable is likely true. Don't know about the much cheaper part though.

 

In any case, I've now far exceeded my self imposed posting quota. So thank you for an interesting conversation and see you later elsewhere.

[Nordkapp]

This industry caters very well to the eccentric, wealthy, gullible and uninformed. No one is arguing mods and subtle tweeks. 

[christopher3393]

I was once bitten by a burmese python. Must've thought my foot was a rat. All those teeth/ points of contact, and tremendous grip. The effect on my nervous system was not subtle.

 

 

[fas42]

8 hours ago, gmgraves said:

You can't make an orchestral recording captured with a forest of microphones to 16 or 32 digital tracks, for instance, sound like stereophonic sound, because the information that makes stereo isn't there, and there is no "tweak" that one can apply to one's playback system to turn such a poor recording into a good one. That's my beef with Frank. He insists that his method of tweaking a system can correct for poor recordings, lousy playback equipment and bad listening rooms!

 

That's not the way it works. If the recording was done very clumsily then it won't sound like a unified group of musicians, or group of sound makers in a single acoustic space - it will sound like a layering of acoustics, one on top of the other - some very intimate, some very distant, all co-existing - think of being in a room with a window open; some people in the room are talking; children outside the window are laughing; and in the distant you can hear traffic and other industrial noises. Your brain doesn't go into meltdown handling this information; it can all be separated and focused on individually, selecting your aural target in turn ... that's exactly how competent playback presents complex, or messy mixes - you're watching a multi-ring circus, an analogy I've mentioned several times.

 

Now, if you insist that such is plain 'wrong', music shouldn't be that way - that's fair enough if you talk of symphonic works, etc ... but people are creative, or have to work around recording gear limitations. To my ears it is still all music, and pleasurable to experience - I guess appreciation of the visual arts is a good thing to compare to, in terms of people differences.