Good Class D amps ??

[GeneZ]

35 minutes ago, DancingSea said:

I have the S300 paired with a DS Jr DAC, I love the combo and have lost the grass is always greener itch for awhile now...

 

 

FYI...   The S300 comes with an audiophile fuse. Found out its soldered in for best connection.  Learned that from PSA customer service. Its one more reason it sounds so good.  On the other hand,  I had to put an audiophile fuse in my ST-10.

 

Have you tried the balanced connections? 

[GeneZ]

11 hours ago, ShawnC said:

As far as the treble goes, I'd say it's the lack there of.  It just doesn't seem to shine.  Cymbals don't sound right, it's dull.  Some like it like that.  Only my best recordings sound good, not great with these amps.  With my Emotiva amp everything sounded pretty good but my best recordings sounded great as they should as a comparison.

 

You have to remember PS Audio made the best class D amp they could at given price point.  There were certain constraints when the design was being developed ie. money.  If you haven't noticed all PS Audio gear is doubled cost of the product below it.  S300 - M700 - BHK250 - BHK300, DSDJR- DSDSR (except the now on sale DSDSr).

 

As far as the Paul saying it's only 10% difference between the M700s and the BHK250 I'll find out soon.  I have a feeling it's just good PR to say that.  With that said, the M700 bass and lower level midrange are glorious as they should be.  Class D excels in this area. If I wasn't getting such an amazing deal on a brand new amp I'd be fairly happy with the M700s.  

 

My friend is borrowing my Emotiva amp with his Maggies he hand built himself at the factory (He hasn't worked there for 15 years).  He was surprised how much bass can come out of those speakers with lots of power at their disposal.  He has an older version of the 1. series and has always used tubed pre's and low powered amps.  He'll be getting the M700 to test when I get he BHK in house.

  I have no dullness when listening with the S300.  Not sure if you have some sort of mismatching going on. 

[crenca]

1 hour ago, GeneZ said:

 

 

FYI...   The S300 comes with an audiophile fuse. Found out its soldered in for best connection.  Learned that from PSA customer service. Its one more reason it sounds so good.  On the other hand,  I had to put an audiophile fuse in my ST-10.

 

Have you tried the balanced connections? 

 

A couple of years ago when I was researching NuPrime amps, I noticed a high amount (relative to the other amps I was considering) of user reports of strange amp/speaker interactions.  Don't recall much specific, but I would say that anyone considering a NuPrime amp, which is as you say is a unique/proprietary circuit design, do their best to make sure there are not known issues with their speakers/set up...

[ShawnC]

26 minutes ago, GeneZ said:

  I have no dullness when listening with the S300.  Not sure if you have some sort of mismatching going on. 

Could be, thus waiting on the new amp to arrive.  My emotiva and McIntosh amps I’ve had in this current system were able to recreate the highs I’d expect.  The McIntosh wasn’t powerfull enough, so that’s in a second system. 

[crenca]

1 minute ago, ShawnC said:

Could be, thus waiting on the new amp to arrive.  My emotiva and McIntosh amps I’ve had in this current system were able to recreate the highs I’d expect.  The McIntosh wasn’t powerfull enough, so that’s in a second system. 

 

Funny, I would consider the signature of an Emotiva amp to be almost the opposite of a McIntosh, even when factoring in that generally most folks overemphasise the signatures of amps (usually)..

[ShawnC]

4 minutes ago, crenca said:

 

Funny, I would consider the signature of an Emotiva amp to be almost the opposite of a McIntosh, even when factoring in that generally most folks overemphasise the signatures of amps (usually)..

The McIntosh is the integrated 252, not top of line stuff but still nice and with that signature McIntosch sound.  My PS Audio DSD Sr. Dac has a very warm sound to it, so that with McIntosh was to much warmth for me, the highs i liked.  With Emotiva the highs were nice but the bottom end wasn’t as smooth as with higher end amps, lots of power though. Thus me trying something different.   I’ve always wanted to try some sort of class D, PS Audio made since first, since I have their DAC.  Now every week that passes things get a little better, but I shouldn’t have to wait 6 months for things to fully break in, if that’s a thing. 

 

Ill know now soon enough, although their building my amp, so I’m waiting for my fedex shipping tracker.  I was hoping last week I’d get that. 

[GeneZ]

1 hour ago, crenca said:

 

A couple of years ago when I was researching NuPrime amps, I noticed a high amount (relative to the other amps I was considering) of user reports of strange amp/speaker interactions.  Don't recall much specific, but I would say that anyone considering a NuPrime amp, which is as you say is a unique/proprietary circuit design, do their best to make sure there are not known issues with their speakers/set up...

  The only speaker interaction I have seen Nuprime warn about is in regards to REL subwoofers that use their connectors going directly to the outputs of a certain amps. 

[DancingSea]

3 hours ago, GeneZ said:

 

 

FYI...   The S300 comes with an audiophile fuse. Found out its soldered in for best connection. 

Have you tried the balanced connections? 

 

Yes, I’ve only used balanced connections, sounds great.  Thx for the insight on the fuse...

[crenca]

28 minutes ago, GeneZ said:

Strange speaker interactions?   Such as?    (sniff.. sniff)

 

Not motivated to document it for you (cough).  I recall  one forum where the (or perhaps "a") principal of NuPrime fielded these reports, and did not deny them...

[esldude]

32 minutes ago, crenca said:

 

Not motivated to document it for you (cough).  I recall  one forum where the (or perhaps "a") principal of NuPrime fielded these reports, and did not deny them...

As I recall the output filtering interacted with variations in speaker loads enough to be audible on the Nuprime.  So it is for real and it would be smart to look at your speakers response and impedance curves. 

[GeneZ]

3 hours ago, crenca said:

 

Not motivated to document it for you (cough).  I recall  one forum where the (or perhaps "a") principal of NuPrime fielded these reports, and did not deny them...

  I think I found it.  They tell you to stay away from 2 Ohm speakers.  That causes problems. 

https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/nuprime-sta-9-power-amplifier-mini-review.3932/

[esldude]

1 hour ago, GeneZ said:

  I think I found it.  They tell you to stay away from 2 Ohm speakers.  That causes problems. 

https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/nuprime-sta-9-power-amplifier-mini-review.3932/

Well I notice their amps usually spec same wattage at 8 and 4 ohms, or sometimes even less into 4 ohms.  This would indicate they are rather limited in current capability.  Some 4 ohm rated speakers with odd phase angles or impedance dips could cause issues with such an amp.  And they do say in the manuals do not use 2 ohm speakers.

[Panelhead]

  Looked at the NuPrime Evolution literature. Did not see any tidbits of why it is so neutral sounding. 

  The 1M input is not a benefit from my experience. A 10K or lower impedance helps with noise, cable dielectrics, and RFI pickup. 

  Have used tube gear with high impedances. 500k. Always had a 12AX7 input tube. 

  

[GeneZ]

9 hours ago, esldude said:

Well I notice their amps usually spec same wattage at 8 and 4 ohms, or sometimes even less into 4 ohms.  This would indicate they are rather limited in current capability.  Some 4 ohm rated speakers with odd phase angles or impedance dips could cause issues with such an amp.  And they do say in the manuals do not use 2 ohm speakers.

 

Do you have a 2 ohm speaker?  Know anyone that does?  Most people should not be so concerned.  These amps sound VERY good.  All this data dumping, but no listening?

I am sitting here listening to my ST-10.  Silly fear mongering arguments is all I see.  2 Ohm speaker?   Google it.  Most are car speakers. 

[mocenigo]

Just now, GeneZ said:

 

Do you have a 2 ohm speaker?  Know anyone that does?  Most people should not be so concerned.  These amps sound VERY good.  All this data dumping, but no listening?

I am sitting here listening to my ST-10.  Silly fear mongering arguments is all I see.  2 Ohm speaker?   Google it.  Most are car speakers. 

 

And some PA/live concert applications. You can have monsters that go down to 1 Ohm. Then the amplifiers need to provide a LOT of current. Since the amps are then usually in class D, one may be temped to use these products with those speakers...

[GeneZ]

2 hours ago, Panelhead said:

  Looked at the NuPrime Evolution literature. Did not see any tidbits of why it is so neutral sounding. 

  The 1M input is not a benefit from my experience. A 10K or lower impedance helps with noise, cable dielectrics, and RFI pickup. 

  Have used tube gear with high impedances. 500k. Always had a 12AX7 input tube. 

  

 

Read the review?   1M input is only found on only a few VERY expensive amplifiers. Wonder why...

 

All fear tactics is all I see.  I have listened to a slew of amplifiers and have no desire to look elsewhere,  even the Evolution One. But, it all depends on your system's ability's resolving power.  With certain speakers many are too busy trying to compensate for the problems that the speakers present.  That means you need to find an amp with the reverse problem. 

[mocenigo]

12 hours ago, esldude said:

As I recall the output filtering interacted with variations in speaker loads enough to be audible on the Nuprime.  So it is for real and it would be smart to look at your speakers response and impedance curves. 

 

This happens often with Class D. This is the area where they still have to catch up with some AB designs - for instance the NAP 250 can drive nearly anything.

[GeneZ]

1 hour ago, mocenigo said:

 

And some PA/live concert applications. You can have monsters that go down to 1 Ohm. Then the amplifiers need to provide a LOT of current. Since the amps are then usually in class D, one may be temped to use these products with those speakers...

  

Why should anyone need to use an audiophile amplifier on a PA speaker when the cheaper brute units designed for them is all you should need? 

 

In other words?  Its like saying to those so inclined... don't drive a BMW 385i off road.   Because it will get stuck.

 

   ? OH!?   I wouldn't buy a BMW then!

[mocenigo]

Just now, GeneZ said:

  

Why should anyone need to use an audiophile amplifier on a PA speaker when the cheaper brute units designed for them is all you should need? 

 

In other words?  Its like saying to those so inclined... don't drive a BMW 385i off road.   Because it will get stuck.   ? OH!   I wouldn't buy a BMW then!

 

I have absolutely no idea why  But audiophiles are a strange bunch. And I have seen some DIY projects for serious audio oriented subwoofers that were using 2 Ohm woofers or two 4 Ohm woofers in parallel - where the components actually come from PA applications. Why people should make their lives so difficult escapes me...

 

 Roberto

[crenca]

27 minutes ago, GeneZ said:

 

Do you have a 2 ohm speaker?  Know anyone that does?  Most people should not be so concerned....

 

On the contrary, they should be concerned.  Unfortunately manufacturers play a rating game (one reason I like Andrew Jones {Elac, etc.} - he does not play this game) where they rate their speakers at "8 ohm" when they dip below 4, 3 ohm, or more (see many KEF speakers for just one of many examples).

 

With many popular modern speakers, these NuPrime products are less than ideal for exactly the reasons we are talking about, and NuPrime even admits this.  For some strange reason you seem to be claiming the opposite.  This is not to say these products don't have other positive qualities, or that they work for you or many others, but this is an issue and no amount of denial is going to change it...

 

edit:  here is an example:

 

https://www.stereophile.com/content/kef-r700-loudspeaker-measurements

 

"The impedance magnitude (solid trace) remains between 4 and 6 ohms for almost all of the audioband....", and yet it is sold to the consumer as an "8 ohm" speaker.
 

[GeneZ]

No problems here...  NuPrime was specific about no 2 Ohm speakers.  Not 8 Ohm speakers that may dip down lower.  That means a 2 Ohm speaker will dip lower than 2 Ohms.    Apparently some people with 2 Ohm speakers had a problem.   NuPrime also warns about certain amps with REL subwoofers, because REL has an unconventional way of hooking them up directly from your amp's outputs.   They are just trying to avoid certain audiophiles with rare problems.

 

I promise I will not drive my BMW in the back woods over the rocks and hillsides.

 

 

[crenca]

20 minutes ago, GeneZ said:

No problems here...  NuPrime was specific about no 2 Ohm speakers.  Not 8 Ohm speakers that may dip down lower.  That means a 2 Ohm speaker will dip lower than 2 Ohms.    Apparently some people with 2 Ohm speakers had a problem.   NuPrime also warns about certain amps with REL subwoofers, because REL has an unconventional way of hooking them up directly from your amp's outputs.   They are just trying to avoid certain audiophiles with rare problems.

 

I promise I will not drive my BMW in the back woods over the rocks and hillsides.

 

 

 

For those of us that have observed this for awhile (e.g. check out JA's measurements of the usual "audiophile" brands going back years) it is the norm that an "8 ohm" speaker is really a 6 ohm or 4 ohm speaker (that dips below 4, 3, or even lower).

 

Interesting what you say about REL (I run REL's).  REL's tap the amp's outputs with a high impedance (going from the top of my head, >10K) simply for a signal.  Can't think of a reason this would be a problem for an amp.  What's NuPrime's explanation as to why it is for their circuits?

[GeneZ]

1 hour ago, crenca said:

 

Interesting what you say about REL (I run REL's).  REL's tap the amp's outputs with a high impedance (going from the top of my head, >10K) simply for a signal.  Can't think of a reason this would be a problem for an amp.  What's NuPrime's explanation as to why it is for their circuits?

 

 

Its not about just Nuprime. Nuprime simply makes it known.  Class D amplifier design, by default, causes problems with REL Subwoofers.

 

Look at the REL page and look up about hooking up Class D amplifiers. https://relsupport.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/115004486607-Class-D-Amp-Connection-Methods

[crenca]

1 minute ago, GeneZ said:

 

Learn something before you storm the castle walls with your torches and pitchforks..

 

Its not about just Nuprime.   Class D design by default causes problems with REL Subwoofers.

 

Look at the REL page and look up about hooking up Class D amplifiers. https://relsupport.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/115004486607-Class-D-Amp-Connection-Methods

 

Settle down Beavis, you appear to be overly defensive of Nuprime.  

 

I don't run class D so I did not know about REL's problems with them (and I don't remember this when I was looking into them).  Good thing I did not get to the point of purchasing as I do run REL's.

 

I like the fact that NuPrime pushes things with an unconventional design, but they are not for everyone...

[GeneZ]

 

55 minutes ago, crenca said:

 

Settle down Beavis, you appear to be overly defensive of Nuprime.  

 

?

Man...   you grabbed that quick!  Instantly!  That was deleted out seconds after posting.     .?    whoah!