Good Class D amps ??

[Matias]

3 hours ago, GeneZ said:

 

Gain Cell is a means to adjust the volume of a preamp, sans a typical attenuator.  Rather than attenuate the full signal of a signal like a volume control does, the gain cell adjusts the output voltage of the preamp to raise and lower the volume.  Its not a variable resistive device like a volume control.  That's how I understand it.  Paul McGowan explains it in this video.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFdZRLwUI0Y

 

It makes a lot of sense for integrated and preamplifiers, anything with volume control. But the Stellar power amps do not have volume controls. So the gain cell has fixed gain.

[Matias]

6 hours ago, jmpsmash said:

 

He told me about it before I made my purchase. I didn't want to try something unreviewed so I got the mk1 version. He said there will be an upgrade path.

 

These amplifiers are extremely modular. Unscrewing the Nord buffer REV C board and plugging in the REV D board might even be user replaceable. And since the REV D has DIP8 small opamp socket as well as the larger opamp socket, users could upgrade the board first and the opamp later.

[oneartist]

9 hours ago, Matias said:

 

It makes a lot of sense for integrated and preamplifiers, anything with volume control. But the Stellar power amps do not have volume controls. So the gain cell has fixed gain.

I use the A700 with the PSAudio DSD as a pre. I've compared it to a lot of very good amps and it handles my big maggies effortlessly. The class A gain cell design works very well.

[jmpsmash]

18 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

 

if you guys do a shootout, please write about it on here

 

No takers at the moment. Class D is one of those cases where it is possible to gather some enthusiasts into one location for comparison. The amps can potentially fit into backpacks. Imagine asking ppl to bring in their class A amps, it will be quite an operation!

 

[mocenigo]

6 minutes ago, jmpsmash said:

 

No takers at the moment. Class D is one of those cases where it is possible to gather some enthusiasts into one location for comparison. The amps can potentially fit into backpacks. Imagine asking ppl to bring in their class A amps, it will be quite an operation!

 

 

It is easy. I bring my 500w monoblocks in my backpack. My friends with class A 500w monoblocks should do the same. No show or death by broken spine means you lose.

[jmpsmash]

On 12/4/2018 at 12:22 AM, Matias said:

 

It makes a lot of sense for integrated and preamplifiers, anything with volume control. But the Stellar power amps do not have volume controls. So the gain cell has fixed gain.

 

Which really begs the question of why. If the Icepower already has an input stage, adding another fixed gain input stage goes opposite of the less is better philosophy. The only explanation is it colors the sound in a more desirable way that is preferred by the designer.

 

 

[GeneZ]

1 hour ago, jmpsmash said:

 

Which really begs the question of why. If the Icepower already has an input stage, adding another fixed gain input stage goes opposite of the less is better philosophy. The only explanation is it colors the sound in a more desirable way that is preferred by the designer.

 

 

 

Why is coloration having to always be bad?   This is an audio system that has glaring deficiencies in the light of what a real live performance sounds like. I have heard too many live performances that I wished I was hearing instead on a good stereo.  Today top bands travel with engineers who know how to better "color" their sound in a given room.  Coloration is the work of an artist. All mastering recording engineers find ways to better color the sound when they can improve what is heard. 

 

There is 'bad' coloration. There is 'good.'  All audio systems color the sound. Every time I recorded my drums what I heard in play back was not what I heard while playing.   Everything gets colored in some way.

 

Now?   Where were we? ?

[jmpsmash]

I was careful to not say that coloring is bad. That's pretty much why we add preamps. Otherwise, everyone will be running attenuated DACs directly into power amp.

 

[crenca]

22 minutes ago, GeneZ said:

 

Why is coloration having to always be bad?   This is an audio system that has glaring deficiencies in the light of what a real live performance sounds like. I have heard too many live performances that I wished I was hearing instead on a good stereo.  Today top bands travel with engineers who know how to better "color" their sound in a given room.  Coloration is the work of an artist. All mastering recording engineers find ways to better color the sound when they can improve what is heard. 

 

There is 'bad' coloration. There is 'good.'  All audio systems color the sound. Every time I recorded my drums what I heard in play back was not what I heard while playing.   Everything gets colored in some way.

 

Now?   Where were we? ?

 

17 minutes ago, jmpsmash said:

I was careful to not say that coloring is bad. That's pretty much why we add preamps. Otherwise, everyone will be running attenuated DACs directly into power amp.

 

 

Coloring maybe a necessary evil but that does not make it a good thing.  Art and Wine audiophiledom certainly supports it (and more importantly, sells it) but an older High Fidelity wanted transparency instead or rather as much as you could get given limitations in tech.

 

All that said I have a tube preamp in my headphone rig just so I can play with tuby coolering....

[GeneZ]

1 hour ago, jmpsmash said:

I was careful to not say that coloring is bad. That's pretty much why we add preamps. Otherwise, everyone will be running attenuated DACs directly into power amp.

 

 

All speakers.. cables... amplifiers... and our rooms add colorations. 

 

DACs?  TT cartridges?   Even TT arms and platters.

 

Probably the gain cell carries with it some sort of coloration most likely.  Yet, it is how something effects the listener's emotions and thoughts that counts.  We are here to enjoy what we hear.  Not to run graphs and measure everything to see if we should be allowed to enjoy.

 

Certain audio rules that everyone tries to abide by may have been originally created out of a necessity for putting the many listeners within a common frame of reference.

 

? .... How does it sound, Bob? 

 

?.... Hi PC Roger.  It measures a higher than usual amount of THD, but everyone who hears it melts in their listening seat!

 

?.... Tell them they are audio hicks if they enjoy it.

[GeneZ]

1 hour ago, crenca said:

 but an older High Fidelity wanted transparency instead or rather as much as you could get given limitations in tech.

 

The irony is?   Transparency only allows for colorations to be presented in a purer way.

 

Chasing wind mills?  Idealistic goal without knowing what can be achieved?  The very room its played back in is a coloration.

 

Though, as a result of the quest for transparency, we have ended up with (potentially better sounding audio systems today.  Greater transparency = sweeter to the ear coloration sound.

 

 

[DancingSea]

For me, all I care about is that I like the way it sounds.  It’s matters little to me how it got there, colored or transparent.  

[jmpsmash]

Anyway. Back to topic.

 

The Nords are in the house. Been running them around the clock for the past 2 days. Won't say much before a couple more days of burning in. At the moment they do sound better than my NC400 but not much. They sound completely different than the NuPrime ST-10.

 

Given that, we should stop lumping all class-D into 1 bucket. They each have their own character and sound.

 

[GeneZ]

52 minutes ago, DancingSea said:

For me, all I care about is that I like the way it sounds.  It’s matters little to me how it got there, colored or transparent.  

  

 

Yup....  Like the jealous husband who thinks all men want his wife, can never truly enjoy his wife, because he is too busy being jealous of imagined rivals.  We need to listen to what we hear and forget about rivals who will tell us what they think we should hear.  Or,  think what we should not hear.

 

??  .. put down that fuse!

[GeneZ]

56 minutes ago, jmpsmash said:

Anyway. Back to topic.

 

The Nords are in the house. Been running them around the clock for the past 2 days. Won't say much before a couple more days of burning in. At the moment they do sound better than my NC400 but not much. They sound completely different than the NuPrime ST-10.

 

Given that, we should stop lumping all class-D into 1 bucket. They each have their own character and sound.

 

 

Every amp... has a taste.

[fas42]

1 hour ago, GeneZ said:

There is 'bad' coloration. There is 'good.'  All audio systems color the sound. Every time I recorded my drums what I heard in play back was not what I heard while playing.   Everything gets colored in some way.

 

Now?   Where were we? ?

 

Technically, all systems colour the sound, but there is a plateau of performance where it no longer matters, because subjectively "all you hear is the music".

 

Transient impact is where the problems usually lie is it doesn't sound real - audiophile rigs are notoriously bad at this, because they are trying so hard not to ever sound unpleasant - and lose so much in the prcoess.

 

Drum kits are a good example of this. But it is certainly possible to get a setup to the point where a drummer listening to audio on the other side of a curtain could be fooled by the playback - the main issue would be that the sound had been recorded without significant compression of the stick impacts.

[GeneZ]

1 hour ago, fas42 said:

 

Technically, all systems colour the sound, but there is a plateau of performance where it no longer matters, because subjectively "all you hear is the music".

 

Transient impact is where the problems usually lie is it doesn't sound real - audiophile rigs are notoriously bad at this, because they are trying so hard not to ever sound unpleasant - and lose so much in the prcoess.

 

Drum kits are a good example of this. But it is certainly possible to get a setup to the point where a drummer listening to audio on the other side of a curtain could be fooled by the playback - the main issue would be that the sound had been recorded without significant compression of the stick impacts.

  I find for hearing the 'leading edge' of the music that litz cabling has been the champ for my system.  When I introduced the Nuforce, then Nuprime amps, the leading edge took on even a greater meaning. 

 

Good Class D can be lightning fast.  With AB, it blunted the leading edge heard with real music, even with litz cabling.  Standard cabling made it pleasant, but like someone gave my system nite time cough syrup.

 

Class D, when well-implemented can be like a whip when its found on the audio.  By now I am used to it.  But in the beginning it was an eye opener for me. Drums and bass took on a new life, which was more like what is really heard in a real live performance.

[Ralf11]

1 hour ago, GeneZ said:

  

 

Yup....  Like the jealous husband who thinks all men want his wife, can never truly enjoy his wife, because he is too busy being jealous of imagined rivals. 

 

 

Wow!  I had no idea she was married - honest!

[GeneZ]

1 hour ago, fas42 said:

 

Drum kits are a good example of this. But it is certainly possible to get a setup to the point where a drummer listening to audio on the other side of a curtain could be fooled by the playback - the main issue would be that the sound had been recorded without significant compression of the stick impacts.

 

Drum kits sound startling real on my system.  I am a drummer. Its one of my frame of references when determining a good addition to my audio chain. 

 

Most speakers with typical crossovers will blunt drums because often times the tweeters and mid/woofers are wired in opposite polarity.  For that reason I discovered that first order crossovers will do drums justice.  Even with my (discontinued) inexpensive Cambridge Audio S30's, I found this to be the case. https://www.whathifi.com/cambridge-audio/s30/review

 

I also found that same phenomena to be true with Role Audio Kayaks which have very high quality first order crossover components. https://positive-feedback.com/Issue33/roleaudio.htm

 

If I did not own Audience 1+1 V2's?  These are what I believe I would have gotten for sure.

https://nsmt-loudspeakers.com/Model-15

 

All with first order crossovers if you want realistic cohesive sounding drums. 

 

FYI..  Audience speakers use no crossover.  Desktop nearfield listening makes them my first choice.  Any more bass, and I would be evicted from my apartment. They were the perfect solution for my apartment cave dwelling.

 

 

[fas42]

Yes, the simpler the speaker setup, the better - a good rule of thumb. Yes, Litz cable - interstrand interaction is reduced; I use tough as nails single core - zero flexibility, but such doesn't matter. Yes, AB often has problems because of the crossover nature of the output stage - so, class A, or good class D.

[GeneZ]

7 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

 

 

Wow!  I had no idea she was married - honest!

  I was not worried about you. She told me you look a bit screwy to her.

?

[GeneZ]

22 hours ago, jmpsmash said:

Anyway. Back to topic.

 

The Nords are in the house. Been running them around the clock for the past 2 days. Won't say much before a couple more days of burning in. At the moment they do sound better than my NC400 but not much. They sound completely different than the NuPrime ST-10.

 

Given that, we should stop lumping all class-D into 1 bucket. They each have their own character and sound.

 

 do you leave your amps on 24/7?    I find leaving on the ST-10 has benefits.

[Matias]

Hmmm seems my post was deleted, so here it goes again.

 

Mivera is selling the ICEpower 1200AS with Ghent's chassis for starting price of $799. Great price.

 

And one may buy 2 and use them in mono for 1.200W at 4 ohms.

 

https://www.miveraaudio.com/product-page/icepower-1200as2-amplifier

[Ralf11]

Is that furrin' like Hawaii or furrin' like Kenya?

[Ralf11]

there is also the fake Michelle O. post re white people...