Router Enhancement

[sandyk]

34 minutes ago, davide256 said:

Sandyk... every piece of content above has to do with after data arrives across the network to a PC or renderer and is stripped out of its frame and packet header for internal processing into a digital audio signal. None of it applies to data in transit inside a packet/frame transport envelope. I do follow and generally endorse the content above for the issues of getting audio data cleanly output, whether it be from HDD locally or from network after frame/packet envelope removal. But these articles are not germane to network data transmission.

 

 What on earth do you think we are talking about here ?

 We are talking about computer derived Audio. 

You, like several other members, steadfastly refuse to accept that things like the quality of the power supply area, the stability of the PC's internal Xtal clock,(Paul Pang etc. supply higher quality Clocks)  even the amount of RF/EMI generated by PWM controlled fans DO affect the SQ of exported Audio.

C.A. is far from the only Forum where large numbers of members now accept that the SQ of digital Audio is not governed merely by the 1s and 0s being correct, as they invariably are almost all of the time !

Even unplugging a Broadband Router using an SMPS while ripping and playing, can affect the SQ of digital audio, and it is not unknown that even reducing the number of non essential processes, or using SAFE MODE in a PC while ripping or playing may affect the final SQ results.

 

Not that I expect that you will believe any of that though!

[Dr Tone]

2 minutes ago, sandyk said:

Even unplugging a Broadband Router using an SMPS while ripping and playing, can affect the SQ of digital audio,

 

Ripping?  What kind of software are you using that doesn't have error checking and data validation?

[sandyk]

11 minutes ago, Dr Tone said:

Ripping?  What kind of software are you using that doesn't have error checking and data validation?

 

When will you people get it through your thick heads that there is far more to the SQ of digital Audio than just the 1s and 0s being correct at the time they are exported ?

 All of the ripped sets of comparison .wav files that I supplied to Martin Colloms from Hi Fi Critic magazine for DBT purposes several years ago had identical .md5 checksums, yet were correctly identified in 6 separate DBT sessions at different dates.

IIRC, there were 8 comparisons at each of those 6 separate sessions. 48 out of 48, POSITIVE results is far from the toss of a coin !

 

 Did you read any of the material at the links I recently provided in this thread ? 

[Ralf11]

51 minutes ago, davide256 said:

 

Sandyk... every piece of content above has to do with after data arrives across the network to a PC or renderer and is stripped out of its frame and packet header for internal processing into a digital audio signal. None of it applies to data in transit inside a packet/frame transport envelope. I do follow and generally endorse the content above for the issues of getting audio data cleanly output, whether it be from HDD locally or from network after frame/packet envelope removal. But these articles are not germane to network data transmission.

 

 

 

 

well put

 

(tho I doubt if it will do any good)

[m3lraaHnevetS]

17 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

 

well put

 

(tho I doubt if it will do any good)

Yeah, those guys don’t know what they are talking about right?

[m3lraaHnevetS]

As long as the bits are inside a packet they are safe from harm right? Lol

[michaelD]

I’m the originator and this thread has gotten way off course.  I told about my personal experience with putting vibration control under a router.  Note the word personal.   Please keep it to your own actual experiences only!

[Ralf11]

my personal experience is that none of my routers has been affected by vibration control

 

nor would I expect them to be so affected because my part of the universe obeys physical laws

[sandyk]

Just now, michaelD said:

I’m the originator and this thread has gotten way off course.  I told about my personal experience with putting vibration control under a router.  Note the word personal.   Please keep it to your own actual experiences only!

 

Hi Michael

 Vibration control is beneficial with almost every piece of electronic equipment.

It is usually taken into account during the actual design process of the equipment, within cost restraints dictated by the bean counters.

 Expensive CD/DVD players such as some from Sony etc.(e.g.SA11)  don't just use honeycomb construction in the metal work so that the customer thinks that because it is heavier than average, that it must have more inside it !

Even taking a decent quality DVD/BR player off the equipment shelf and placing it on a carpeted floor, can  alter how it sounds to some extent !

 

Regards

Alex

 

[Speed Racer]

1 hour ago, m3lraaHnevetS said:

Steve Silberman: I think this is where things get misconstrued. The signals we think of abstractly as “digital” are in fact high-speed analog square waves, susceptible to all of the same damage and distortions as any other analog signal.

So now what?

 

The data, the ones and zeroes, make it across the wire intact 99.99 percent of the time. In other words, the analog waves are good enough to be interpreted correctly.

 

So now what?

[Ralf11]

also refer back to the checksum post (Davide256 IRRC)

 

then our own Cry Mommy poster has again confused analog (CD player) with purely digital...

 

but hey just because it defies physical law doesn't mean it can't happen - that's why I rub Caig proGold all over my router's case

[m3lraaHnevetS]

10 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

my personal experience is that none of my routers has been affected by vibration control

 

nor would I expect them to be so affected because my part of the universe obeys physical laws

Yeah right, take a magnifying glass and have a close look at the 1’s and 0’s floating through your digital equipment hahaha

[sandyk]

5 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

So now what?

 

Try reading the links that I provided where highly experienced designers discuss this area!

Perhaps even Gordon Rankin who invented Async USB isn't experienced enough in this area for your liking ?

Incidentally, why are you even bothering about very high quality, AND expensive PSUs for your digital gear if the relatively low noise level from a LM317T etc.  voltage regulator can't possibly affect the digital area ?  Hedging your bets perhaps ?

 I gather that you probably do agree though, that it IS important for the Analogue area though ?

[Ralf11]

2 minutes ago, m3lraaHnevetS said:

Yeah right, take a magnifying glass and have a close look at the 1’s and 0’s floating through your digital equipment hahaha

 

 

- most people use a different type of scope, not that you'd know that

[Speed Racer]

2 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

Try reading the links that I provided where highly experienced designers discuss this area!

Perhaps even Gordon Rankin who invented Async USB isn't experienced enough in this area for your liking ?

 

 

You need to calm down. I completely understand that there is more to this that the data making it across the cable intact. What bothers me is people keep trying to suggest that the data doesn't make it across the cable intact....which just isn't the case.

[Ralf11]

2 hours ago, sandyk said:

 

https://www.audiostream.com/content/draft?page=1

https://www.audiostream.com/content/theres-no-such-thing-digital-conversation-charles-hansen-gordon-rankin-and-steve-silberman-p

http://www.audiostream.com/content/qa-john-swenson-part-1-what-digital

http://www.audiostream.com/content/qa-john-swenson-part-2-are-bits-just-bits

https://www.audiostream.com/content/qa-john-swenson-part-3-how-bit-perfect-software-can-affect-sound

 

 

This is what he linked to... unfortunately, none of them are relevant to a router.

 

Lots of bad vibes to control - speaker cabinet resonances, ball bearings under a DAC or a CD player (which includes a DAC of course), emotional outbursts here and elsewhere, etc.

 

Anyone can put their router on the list too - just do a valid test to avoid the ol' snake oil swim

[davide256]

1 hour ago, m3lraaHnevetS said:

sorry to disturb your peace but in the first article I read:

 

AS: Since there's no such thing as 1s and 0s in digital transmission, what is being sent over our USB/Firewire/Ethernet cables when we play back music files?

CH: An ANALOG signal!

Steve Silberman: I think this is where things get misconstrued. The signals we think of abstractly as “digital” are in fact high-speed analog square waves, susceptible to all of the same damage and distortions as any other analog signal.

So now what?

 

 

Again a lack of understanding that IP/Ethernet is not a plug compatible DAC protocol... there is no industry standard to use Ethernet media for direct DAC audio connection. You have to have Data Terminating Equipment (DTE)... that  layer of hardware/firmware functionality does not know or care whether the block of data transmitted is  part of an audio file or part of a spreadsheet. That's handled by upper layer protocols, in firmware or software after the data is removed from its frame/packet envelope. Only after data has been stripped of its headers and reaches the upper level protocols is unique handling determined ( is this audio, is this part of a library directory, is it video display, is it a command {start, stop, select, exit, etc).  Audio is not the owner or sole passenger on IP/Ethernet data transmission. Once the data is handed off to unique audio processing is where problems can start... before that its just "lego" blocks indistinguishable from any other "lego" blocks inside a packet/frame. The Internet wouldn't work otherwise.

[m3lraaHnevetS]

1 minute ago, Ralf11 said:

 

 

- most people use a different type of scope, not that you'd know that

Ok Thank you very much Sir. I just love the thought that if I or anyone else has any doubts or questions we can always come to you and your fellow trolls to get the answers we need. Again, Thank you sooo much.

 

ones and zero’s right?

 

seriously this place would be way less entertaining wo them thick headed trolls

[sandyk]

9 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

 

You need to calm down. I completely understand that there is more to this that the data making it across the cable intact. What bothers me is people keep trying to suggest that the data doesn't make it across the cable intact....which just isn't the case.

 

My replies aren't just aimed at you, they are also aimed at the silent majority of members who read these threads.

 I believe that the vast majority of C.A. members DO accept what you and others are saying about it being very rare for there to be actual Data errors.

 This is an area where we need members with your expertise to work with other members who report

situations where results don't fully agree with currently accepted dogma, in order to further the SQ of digital audio.

 

[Speed Racer]

2 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

My replies aren't just aimed at you...

 

 

Well, you did quote my post.....

[m3lraaHnevetS]

8 minutes ago, davide256 said:

 

 

Again a lack of understanding that IP/Ethernet is not a plug compatible DAC protocol... there is no industry standard to use Ethernet media for direct DAC audio connection. You have to have Data Terminating Equipment (DTE)... that  layer of hardware/firmware functionality does not know or care whether the block of data transmitted is  part of an audio file or part of a spreadsheet. That's handled by upper layer protocols, in firmware or software after the data is removed from its frame/packet envelope. Only after data has been stripped of its headers and reaches the upper level protocols is unique handling determined ( is this audio, is this part of a library directory, is it video display, is it a command {start, stop, select, exit, etc).  Audio is not the owner or sole passenger on IP/Ethernet data transmission. Once the data is handed off to unique audio processing is where problems can start... before that its just "lego" blocks indistinguishable from any other "lego" blocks inside a packet/frame. The Internet wouldn't work otherwise.

Again, just ones and zero’s right? Too funny

 

So what do you use upstream from the sotm? You might be surprised when you pay attention to that part even though it should not...might even try the op’ tweak though that seems a little far fetched even for me

[davide256]

30 minutes ago, m3lraaHnevetS said:

Again, just ones and zero’s right? Too funny

 

So what do you use upstream from the sotm? You might be surprised when you pay attention to that part even though it should not...might even try the op’ tweak though that seems a little far fetched even for me

So... you try to teach your grandmother to suck eggs?  My digital  chain is in my signature... and a few things that others scoff at aren't ;<)

 

As to 1's and 0's... thats bit level processor logic. All digital signals are clocked voltage level transitions.. very sharp ones.

[Ralf11]

1 hour ago, m3lraaHnevetS said:

Ok Thank you very much Sir. I just love the thought that if I or anyone else has any doubts or questions we can always come to you and your fellow trolls to get the answers we need. Again, Thank you sooo much.

 

ones and zero’s right?

 

seriously this place would be way less entertaining wo them thick headed trolls

 

rather than attack people as trolls you would be well advised to ask politely for engineers to educate you - maybe you can better yourself that way

[mansr]

If I power my router with a linear power supply, will Wikipedia articles be more accurate?

[pkane2001]

4 minutes ago, mansr said:

If I power my router with a linear power supply, will Wikipedia articles be more accurate?

 

They'll look the same if you try to read them while blindfolded.