Building a PC to improve SMS-200 Ultra

[ismewor]

Just for me. I would still going to use mini-itx setup over NUC. 

As for USB Ethernet on NUC would it better better to run the usb ethernet over txusbultra. Just a thought.

However, both have Pro and Con. so pick what best fit per case.

[ismewor]

On 10/24/2017 at 11:55 AM, ismewor said:

i just place an order for the audio router from this new company www.thelinearsolution.com they seem to be very knowledgeable in what they are doing. And i gave the same idea to them and see what their reply are and i will keep you guys posted.

Just to follow up on the Linear ATX solution. Sam at TLS got back to me and they are working on one actually. the voltage is going to be around 600-800W he said and it will be more like a 7-9 Rail setting. He said they been working on this for almost 2 years and it is pretty close to production release. he said once the spec available will updated on the site or email to me.  i already replied i will be the first one on the list. 

[Johnseye]

17 minutes ago, ismewor said:

Just to follow up on the Linear ATX solution. Sam at TLS got back to me and they are working on one actually. the voltage is going to be around 600-800W he said and it will be more like a 7-9 Rail setting. He said they been working on this for almost 2 years and it is pretty close to production release. he said once the spec available will updated on the site or email to me.  i already replied i will be the first one on the list. 

 

And the cost will only be $10k?  What would you do with 800W and 9 rails?  That's a lot of power.

[ElviaCaprice]

25 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

And the cost will only be $10k?  What would you do with 800W and 9 rails?  That's a lot of power.

I agree, just ridiculous and moving in the wrong direction.  Besides it still doesn't deal with the issue of the mobo itself and internal switching of power.  Which to me is the bigger issue than an ATX supply.

[ismewor]

1 hour ago, Johnseye said:

What would you do with 800W and 9 rails?  That's a lot of power.

That might just be enough, and I think 7 tails would be perfect .

[ismewor]

1 hour ago, ElviaCaprice said:

I agree, just ridiculous and moving in the wrong direction.  Besides it still doesn't deal with the issue of the mobo itself and internal switching of power.  Which to me is the bigger issue than an ATX supply.

Can you be more specific on moving to the wrong direction, and why it doesn’t deal with mobo issue and which internal switching you are refer to?

[Johnseye]

43 minutes ago, ismewor said:

That might just be enough, and I think 7 tails would be perfect .

 

Just enough for what? A gaming PC doesn't use that much power. 

[ismewor]

Enough for an true audio Server PC, Yes, computer draw tons of power, even without a heavy GPU. 

[Johnseye]

33 minutes ago, ismewor said:

Enough for an true audio Server PC, Yes, computer draw tons of power, even without a heavy GPU. 

 

It doesn't really draw that much power.  Get yourself a Kill A Watt and measure your actual utilization.

[zackthedog]

On 10/31/2017 at 11:38 AM, ismewor said:

Enough for an true audio Server PC, Yes, computer draw tons of power, even without a heavy GPU. 

 

Oh, goodness, no.  A 200W power supply would be plenty.

[Advieira]

First I thank you guys for the informations. But some things have changed after so many informations in the meantime.

Some audiophiles (like Hans Beekhuyzen) claims the way SMS-200Ultra works (as Roon Endpoint) makes it unaffected by the quality of any Roon Core (server). And it really seems reasonable argument as the ultra (as endpoint) is not a filter but actually the renderer or " the thing that make sound", in the words of roonlabs website. On the other hand, they told cables and lan isolator before the SMS-200ultra can bring improvements.

 

I really would like to know how modify my macmini and sms200ultra to connect the clocks to ethernet and cpu mobo. I think this is the best advice on this topic. But I don´t. 

 

And I dont think a NUC a big improvement over a mac mini, based on the statements above.

 

If instead abandoning my mac mini I use my actual budget (1.5k) to improve the chain between my Router to Vega? What would be the best move?

 

Today:

tp-link router>BJC Cat6>macmini thunderbolt port (not bridged, but internet shared)>macmini ethernet port>Qed Performance Ethernet Graffite>SMS-200Ultra>Audioquest Carbon>Vega

 

 

[zackthedog]

19 minutes ago, Advieira said:

First I thank you guys for the informations. But some things have changed after so many informations in the meantime.

Some audiophiles (like Hans Beekhuyzen) claims the way SMS-200Ultra works (as Roon Endpoint) makes it unaffected by the quality of any Roon Core (server). And it really seems reasonable argument as the ultra (as endpoint) is not a filter but actually the renderer or " the thing that make sound", in the words of roonlabs website. On the other hand, they told cables and lan isolator before the SMS-200ultra can bring improvements.

 

I really would like to know how modify my macmini and sms200ultra to connect the clocks to ethernet and cpu mobo. I think this is the best advice on this topic. But I don´t. 

 

And I dont think a NUC a big improvement over a mac mini, based on the statements above.

 

If instead abandoning my mac mini I use my actual budget (1.5k) to improve the chain between my Router to Vega? What would be the best move?

 

Today:

tp-link router>BJC Cat6>macmini thunderbolt port (not bridged, but internet shared)>macmini ethernet port>Qed Performance Ethernet Graffite>SMS-200Ultra>Audioquest Carbon>Vega

 

 

 

I may be wrong, but I don't think you can add external clocks to the Mac Mini.  The best improvement would probably be the linear power supply modification from Uptone.  It's very easy to do, though their instruction sheet makes it seem a bit more complicated than it is. ;-)

 

And no, a NUC probably wouldn't be an improvement, but a simple DIY server might be.  You can get a DC-powered motherboard for around $150, a case for $30, memory and an SSD for about $120, and then you could add the clocks and perhaps an upgraded ethernet card.  Just a thought.

[Advieira]

3 minutes ago, zackthedog said:

 

I may be wrong, but I don't think you can add external clocks to the Mac Mini.  The best improvement would probably be the linear power supply modification from Uptone.  It's very easy to do, though their instruction sheet makes it seem a bit more complicated than it is. ;-)

 

I do not have courage to open my mac mini.

 

4 minutes ago, zackthedog said:

And no, a NUC probably wouldn't be an improvement, but a simple DIY server might be.  You can get a DC-powered motherboard for around $150, a case for $30, memory and an SSD for about $120, and then you could add the clocks and perhaps an upgraded ethernet card.  Just a thought.

 

I cannot add the clocks, cause I have no skill or technical knowledge to do it.

 

I´m looking for a "plug and play" solution. lol

[Johnseye]

15 minutes ago, Advieira said:

First I thank you guys for the informations. But some things have changed after so many informations in the meantime.

Some audiophiles (like Hans Beekhuyzen) claims the way SMS-200Ultra works (as Roon Endpoint) makes it unaffected by the quality of any Roon Core (server). And it really seems reasonable argument as the ultra (as endpoint) is not a filter but actually the renderer or " the thing that make sound", in the words of roonlabs website. On the other hand, they told cables and lan isolator before the SMS-200ultra can bring improvements.

 

I really would like to know how modify my macmini and sms200ultra to connect the clocks to ethernet and cpu mobo. I think this is the best advice on this topic. But I don´t. 

 

And I dont think a NUC a big improvement over a mac mini, based on the statements above.

 

If instead abandoning my mac mini I use my actual budget (1.5k) to improve the chain between my Router to Vega? What would be the best move?

 

Today:

tp-link router>BJC Cat6>macmini thunderbolt port (not bridged, but internet shared)>macmini ethernet port>Qed Performance Ethernet Graffite>SMS-200Ultra>Audioquest Carbon>Vega

 

 

 

1. Has Hans Beekhuyzen ever modified or listened to a modified Roon Core server or is he just guessing?
2. You have at least 3 or 4 people in this forum who've heard it both ways and will tell you that improving the devices before the endpoint can improve the sound quality.
3. "The thing that makes the sound" is the speakers.  Prior to that it's an amplified electric analog signal.  Prior to that it may go through some sound characteristic changes in a preamp.  Prior to that it gets converted from digital packets to an electric analog signal in the DAC.  Prior to that at the endpoint ethernet packets are getting converted to USB and the Roon endpoint is making sure it happens, but it's not converting them to analog.  Prior to that Roon Core is decoding the file to PCM or DSD, applying DSP settings such as upsampling or making timing changes.  Anyone telling you the sound quality is unaffected by the Core server is wrong.
4. All the endpoint does is provide a device other than the Core server to hand off the data stream to the DAC.  The reason it's a filter with an sMS-200ultra is that it can take ethernet in.  Otherwise there isn't much of a difference between it and the tX-USBultra.
5. A NUC will only be a big improvement over your mac mini if you improve its power or its clocks.
6. If you can provide your mac mini and sMS-200ultra with a good clean power source you will get the best improvement.

[zoltan]

I have the SMS-200 Ultra. I use Roon but HQplayer as a plug-in, so the SMS-200 Ultra serves as an NNA.

 

Both the developer of HQPlayer and a "really knowledgeable guy" I trust say that the server has one role only, namely to process data. Therefore faster and more reliable hardware is best and power supplies, clocks, etc. don't matter as long as the signal passes through a properly isolated network. 

In your case, I would 1. upgrade the switch (by SOtm) including accepting a clock signal from SCLK-ex in the Ultra. 2. Add a good LPS to the switch. 3. Isolate the network as much as you can from the source. (I use three Acoustic Revive filters in series between the switch and the Ultra). 4. Add a Mutec MC3+USB if your system accepts SPDIF or AES/EBU digital inputs. Then you will have a new list of upgrades. No 1. Add LPS to the Mutec, etc.... 

[zackthedog]

2 hours ago, Advieira said:

 

I do not have courage to open my mac mini.

 

 

I cannot add the clocks, cause I have no skill or technical knowledge to do it.

 

I´m looking for a "plug and play" solution. lol

 

I understand.  I'm not sure I could either. :-)  But given your budget you could send a board to SOtM for mods then pop it in a simple case.

[austinpop]

3 hours ago, Advieira said:

First I thank you guys for the informations. But some things have changed after so many informations in the meantime.

Some audiophiles (like Hans Beekhuyzen) claims the way SMS-200Ultra works (as Roon Endpoint) makes it unaffected by the quality of any Roon Core (server). And it really seems reasonable argument as the ultra (as endpoint) is not a filter but actually the renderer or " the thing that make sound", in the words of roonlabs website. On the other hand, they told cables and lan isolator before the SMS-200ultra can bring improvements.

 

I really would like to know how modify my macmini and sms200ultra to connect the clocks to ethernet and cpu mobo. I think this is the best advice on this topic. But I don´t. 

 

And I dont think a NUC a big improvement over a mac mini, based on the statements above.

 

If instead abandoning my mac mini I use my actual budget (1.5k) to improve the chain between my Router to Vega? What would be the best move?

 

Today:

tp-link router>BJC Cat6>macmini thunderbolt port (not bridged, but internet shared)>macmini ethernet port>Qed Performance Ethernet Graffite>SMS-200Ultra>Audioquest Carbon>Vega

 

 

 

I had not seen this thread before.

 

Given you already have the sMS-200ultra, you can do a lot for $1500 without changing you Mac Mini. I’ll post some recommendations in a bit, but first - what voltage is your sMS-200ultra? What PSU is powering the sMS-200ultra?

[austinpop]

We now know a lot better how to isolate upstream noise, thanks to John Swenson's findings with switches and ground shunts. For reference, see:

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/35129-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-the-microrendu-ultrarendu/?do=findComment&comment=723196

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/37034-smps-and-grounding/?do=findComment&comment=723185

 

I'm a firm believer in value for money, and building on what you already have. With the sMS-200ultra and the sPS-500, you already have a firm foundation. You also have 2 unused clock points on the sCLK-EX board in the Ultra. I would recommend the following chain:

• MacMini > modded Netgear GS105 (your choice) > sMS-200ultra > modded tX-USBhubEX > DAC

You would be using the 2 remaining sCLK-EX points for the switch and the tX-USBhubEX respectively. The latter effectively gives you a tX-USBultra. In my experience, both the the modded switch AND the tX improve SQ over the base improvements you got from the sMS-200ultra.

 

Coupled with the above, it is very important to use the best PSUs you can afford, and make sure they are shunted to ground, as John describes, especially the PSU powering the switch.

 

So in summary:

1. send sMS-200ultra and a Netgear switch ($30) to SOtM
2. modify sMS-200ultra to expose 2 clock taps - 25MHz for the switch, 24MHz for the tX. These will be 2 SMB ports on the back of the chassis.
3. have them add the reference clock input for future clock upgrade. This will be a BNC input port on the back. This is $200 for future proofing. I highly recommend it.
4. add a tX-USBhubEX to your SOtM order, and have them mod it to accept the 24MHz clock from the sMS-200ultra
5. have them mod the Netgear switch to accept the sCLK-EX 25MHz clock, as well a upgrade the regulators and capacitors
6. assuming the sMS-200ultra and the modded tX-USBhubEX are 12V, you should be able to share a single sPS-500 between them - although check with May first.
7. Get a good  PSU like the LPS-1 to power the modded switch.
8. Get the grounding right. Note that the sPS-500 output is already shunted (i.e. DC negative terminal is shunted to ground), as confirmed by SOtM.
   • Shunt the DC input to the switch, even if the PSU is an LPS-1
   • Shunt DC output of the energizing Meanwell SMPS for the LPS-1

All of this should come in within, or very close to $1500, and should give you a profound improvement.

[Summit]

9 hours ago, Advieira said:

First I thank you guys for the informations. But some things have changed after so many informations in the meantime.

Some audiophiles (like Hans Beekhuyzen) claims the way SMS-200Ultra works (as Roon Endpoint) makes it unaffected by the quality of any Roon Core (server). And it really seems reasonable argument as the ultra (as endpoint) is not a filter but actually the renderer or " the thing that make sound", in the words of roonlabs website. On the other hand, they told cables and lan isolator before the SMS-200ultra can bring improvements.

 

I really would like to know how modify my macmini and sms200ultra to connect the clocks to ethernet and cpu mobo. I think this is the best advice on this topic. But I don´t. 

 

And I dont think a NUC a big improvement over a mac mini, based on the statements above.

 

If instead abandoning my mac mini I use my actual budget (1.5k) to improve the chain between my Router to Vega? What would be the best move?

 

Today:

tp-link router>BJC Cat6>macmini thunderbolt port (not bridged, but internet shared)>macmini ethernet port>Qed Performance Ethernet Graffite>SMS-200Ultra>Audioquest Carbon>Vega

 

 

 

An endpoint like SMS-200Ultra or ultraRendu will not making your audio system immune to what’s upstream. A standard NUC is not a big improvement over a mac mini. They are made with the same sort of compromises; switching power regulation internally to keep heat and power low, use a lot of non discreet components, nasty M.2 SSDs and printed circuit boards. They also put all components (processor, ram, hard drive, mother board, switching regulators, clocks, inputs/outputs) very close together which means EMI and RFI will affect other components in the same box much more than in a full- size chassis there components can be placed further apart.

[Advieira]

4 hours ago, austinpop said:

 I would recommend the following chain:

• MacMini > modded Netgear GS105 (your choice) > sMS-200ultra > modded tX-USBhubEX > DAC

.

 

Thank you for recommendations.

 

i’m using direct connection as suggested by romaz, though I couldnt create a bridge to thunderbolt port and I just shared the internet (I suppose the quality should be the same, or not?).

So, my macmini works like the switch, comnected direct to sms200 ultra.

 

Dont I will lose the improvements of direct connection if I use a switch instead?

[austinpop]

4 hours ago, Advieira said:

 

Thank you for recommendations.

 

i’m using direct connection as suggested by romaz, though I couldnt create a bridge to thunderbolt port and I just shared the internet (I suppose the quality should be the same, or not?).

So, my macmini works like the switch, comnected direct to sms200 ultra.

 

Dont I will lose the improvements of direct connection if I use a switch instead?

 

Please take a look at the index in the first post of this thread:

 

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/

 

You can use the index to explore. In particular, look at these 2 links:

 

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-the-sms-200-and-microrendu/?do=findComment&comment=633020

 

And

 

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-the-sms-200-and-microrendu/?do=findComment&comment=659870

 

to understand that the switch appears to impact SQ favorably due to the clock mod. The switch is there only for this reason, not for switching purposes.

[Johnseye]

33 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

to understand that the switch appears to impact SQ favorably due to the clock mod. The switch is there only for this reason, not for switching purposes.

 

In this situation I would recommend not using a switch.  If there is an opportunity to not use a piece of hardware with potential noise characteristics then I personally prefer not to introduce that device.  This is a personal choice and decision.  Others may differ, but in my opinion adding a functionally unnecessary device is used to modify the sound signature through noise shaping.  For better or worse is up to the listener to decide.

[austinpop]

11 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

In this situation I would recommend not using a switch.  If there is an opportunity to not use a piece of hardware with potential noise characteristics then I personally prefer not to introduce that device.  This is a personal choice and decision.  Others may differ, but in my opinion adding a functionally unnecessary device is used to modify the sound signature through noise shaping.  For better or worse is up to the listener to decide.

 

I’ll leave it to the OP @Advieira to decide. 

 

I also suggest the OP go through the findings in the massive thread via the index, to decide for himself.

[bobfa]

On 12/28/2017 at 9:19 AM, austinpop said:

 

I’ll leave it to the OP @Advieira to decide. 

 

I also suggest the OP go through the findings in the massive thread via the index, to decide for himself.

I just finished reading the whole thread. (Three days +) and it is all very very interesting.  I have two parts of the trifecta on the way (modded switch, 200 ultra and two of their power supplies).   Great job on the index and all the of the work getting us down this path!  WOW

 

I am also looking at the server side.  I use ROON on a Sonic Transporter i5 and I cannot do the network "bridging" so I am looking at how best to implement that.  I have a i7 Intel NUC that was a Roon (ROCK) server for the store I used to work in.  I am "thinking" about putting windows 10 on it and testing with the bridging network stuff.  I really only run Roon but it might be nice to try some other stuff.  I was also going to try with an older Mac mini but it may be a bit hardware weak for running multiple Roon endpoints (I regularly run 2, and I have 2 more (Sonos ))

 

The other possibility is to just get the new Sonic Transporter I7 with bridging and KISS!    

 

I do not know if any of this helps but there it is!

 

--RJF

 

[hurka]

Sms 200 ultra can upsampling 385 kHz?Not the Pc!

Thanks!!