Building a PC to improve SMS-200 Ultra

[Johnseye]

9 minutes ago, TopQuark said:

 

Let the readers decide that.  I already provided my link from the mouth of the Roon author himself.

 

He said it wasn't based on another distro.  They wrote their own. 

 

9 minutes ago, TopQuark said:

 

 

As I mentioned, I am just trying to correct misinformation about ROCK.  I do respect your decision in your choice of hardware as you see fits. I know you feel strongly about your chosen hardware but why this negative sentiment?  Again, I am just the messenger here so I posted the links from Roon author himself that he is NOT going to develop ROCK other than NUC and provided the warning. I didn't make my own opinion.  I could have made one but I didn't because, like assholes, everybody has one.

 

I was pointing out you don't need a NUC.  You definitely have an opinion or there wouldn't be this conversation. 

 

9 minutes ago, TopQuark said:

 

I didn't say there isn't an impact.  Isn't it?  I am saying that it is not as significant impact as the unit that is connected to the DAC or re-clocker or converter because it is further out from the chain.

 

How would you know?

 

9 minutes ago, TopQuark said:

 

 

Wait a minute here. The subject matter has changed. "..even if you use an sMS-200".  So now, there is the sMS-200 in the equation.  I was referring to a single box solution that is being suggested here that replaces the OP's mac-mini and sMS-200ultra.

 

No it hasn't. You missed the point again. 

 

9 minutes ago, TopQuark said:

 

This has been proven by multiple people?  I'm sure there are more of you other than yourself, Caprice, and Roy.  Roy is using a $10,000 Chord Dave that is non-delta sigma and non-R2R that does it's own noise filtering in the FPGA that is like over 100Mhz so he is getting the result he want without further upsampling.  Each set-up is unique in itself and one does not apply to everyone else.  Again, I have nothing about your choice.  I will say it again that I respect your choice.  It's just that I am straightening out the facts with the links to the references from the source.

 

 

Apologies to the OP too. I hope this will provide him enough material to come up with an informed decision.

 

 

Yes you have pointed out multiple people. 

 

It is a personal  choice, that's all. Just keeping the facts straight as well. 

 

Sorry I had to respond. 

[TopQuark]

5 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

He said it wasn't based on another distro.  They wrote their own.  

 

That was the point. It is not a distro.

 

5 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

I was pointing out you don't need a NUC.  You definitely have an opinion or there wouldn't be this conversation. 

 

I suggested NUC because the OP mentioned ROCK as an option.  See original message.  ROCK = NUC.  You are twisting the facts again.

 

5 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

How would you know?

 

 

Technically, packets are blocked from the subnet set-up and the CPU is running only for its intended purpose - just album library creation and convolution.  Have I heard it?  Yes, in various server configurations - in a NAS, SmartOS dedicated server, Arch Linux, Windows server, Atom CPU, Pentium, etc.  With a modded clock in a server?  No.  The server is connected to the renderer through ethernet cable. I am already using the modded clock in the switch coming from the spare clock from sMS-200ultra clock.  Someone here already said it themselves, you can try all the clock mods you can all the way up to the main switch and router.  The further you go away from the DAC, the less impact will it be. I believe these are even Roy's remarks.

 

By the way, careful with your Jetway mobo.  I was in the business before.  Jetway used to be a cheap bottom tier mobo manufacturer for enthusiasts. Their mobo quality is so bad and they are not selling, so they quit that business.  To continue their business, they went into embedded and industrial mobo.  Whether they are still using cheap components, that is another question.  This is only a historical information and I am hoping they are more selective in their use of components now.

 

5 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

No it hasn't. You missed the point again. 

 

It did because never in the discussion was sMS-200ultra included until now.  It's always been a single server box both functioning as Roon Server and renderer like in Jetway generic mobo.  Now that you have added sMS-200ultra in the chain and talk about adding a server box (mac mini, NUC, even Jetway, etc.) that is all together a different animal.

 

5 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

Yes you have pointed out multiple people. 

 

It is a personal  choice, that's all. Just keeping the facts straight as well. 

 

Sorry I had to respond. 

 

Yes, that's multiple people.  3 of you.  Thank you.

[Johnseye]

9 minutes ago, TopQuark said:

 

Technically, packets are blocked from the subnet set-up and the CPU is running only for its intended purpose - just album library creation and convolution. 

 

 

Packets are blocked from the subnet? Wrong. 

 

9 minutes ago, TopQuark said:

 

Have I heard it?  Yes, in various server configurations - in a NAS, SmartOS dedicated server, Arch Linux, Windows server, Atom CPU, Pentium, etc.  With a modded clock in a server?  No. 

 

 

Your answer is no to my question. You have not heard it therefore you can not say one way is better than the other. 

 

9 minutes ago, TopQuark said:

The server is connected to the renderer through ethernet cable. I am already using the modded clock in the switch coming from the spare clock from sMS-200ultra clock.  Someone here already said it themselves, you can try all the clock mods you can all the way up to the main switch and router.  The further you go away from the DAC, the less impact will it be. I believe these are even Roy's remarks.

 

It did because never in the discussion was sMS-200ultra included until now.  It's always been a single server box both functioning as Roon Server and renderer like in Jetway generic mobo.  Now that you have added sMS-200ultra in the chain and talk about adding a server box (mac mini, NUC, even Jetway, etc.) that is all together a different animal.

 

My point was that upgrading the mobo clocks will have a positive impact regardless. You're telling the OP that all he needs is the sms-200 and his PC doesn't matter. 

 

9 minutes ago, TopQuark said:

 

 

[TopQuark]

1 minute ago, Johnseye said:

Packets are blocked from the subnet? Wrong. 

 

Make sure you are talking about packets because they are blocked.  Any reference or your humble opinion?  Here's coming from Roon COO himself:

 

https://community.roonlabs.com/t/rock-dual-ethernet-primary-port-not-exposed-resolved/26222/16?u=topquark

 

...complete traffic isolation.

 

1 minute ago, Johnseye said:

Your answer is no to my question. You have not heard it therefore you can not say one way is better than the other. 

 

I didn't say one is better than the other.  Didn't I?  Please don't put words in my mouth.  I am saying as you go down the chain, the impact is less significant than what is closer to the DAC.  It is base on physics and quoted from the main thread from autinpop and roy.  I don't know why I am spending too much time here.  You insist on your point based on insinuation and not from reading the message board.  Sorry I have to spurt this out.

 

1 minute ago, Johnseye said:

My point was that upgrading the mobo clocks will have a positive impact regardless. You're telling the OP that all he needs is the sms-200 and his PC doesn't matter. 

 

We are going circles here.  Upgrading the mobo clocks will make a positive impact -> Yes. That is what SOtM did in sMS-200ultra.  Upgrading the clocks in a server connected to sMS-200ultra -> Yes, but not as significant.  I did not tell the OP all he need is the sMS-200ultra.  sMS-200ultra can run by itself but impossible with Roon.  Where did you get this nonsense?  I suggest NUC with sMS-200ultra since he mentioned ROCK.  You even said I have an agenda with NUC!

 

The OP actually made the right decision in keeping mac-mini with sMS-200ultra.  Cost performance-wise, this is what is best for Roon Server.  If more horsepower is needed to take advantage of new Roon's features, then a generic mobo running Windows or Linux and Roon Server is fine.  For Windows Server, the $500 cost of software plus $130 for Audiophile Optimizer has to be accounted for.  Even then, over 90% of Windows features will not be used.  But for utmost simplicity and harness the power of the server more, the Intel NUC is the other option.  It will cost less than the $630 for Windows Server software alone, fanless case are widely available, and take advantage of ROCK which is very attractive by itself since it was designed for audiophile audio from scratch and it is available without further cost as a Roon user.

 

[Johnseye]

There is so much misinformation in your post I'm not going to bother. Hopefully the OP figures it out. 

[ElviaCaprice]

The misinformation keeps piling up, good try Johnseye. 

1.  You don't need Windows server for the best OS,  Windows 10 optimized is as good, some say better, some say worse.  All depends on the optimization you perform, too close to matter.

2.  Windows 10 is free, yes free, you don't need to license it for it to operate.

3.  Optimiztion  can also be free.  There is a very good thread on CA on how to perform this.

4.  JRiver is cheap compared to Roon.  There is no difference in SQ when streaming bit perfect.  All depends on what you enjoy for features.  I find bit perfect streaming my preferable choice for SQ.  Roon is expensive.  You don't need Rock to run Roon.  

5.  You don't need a renderer or NAA anymore for best SQ.  A low power sCLK-EX server has been empirically tested to equal or better the SQ of a sCLK-EX renderer (Trifecta).   Either is good, your choice. 

 

This talk of packets being blocked is nonsense.  Pure hi sales talk.  Besides, it's a non issue with the server sCLK-EX steaming direct to the DAC.

 

 

[TopQuark]

32 minutes ago, ElviaCaprice said:

1.  You don't need Windows server for the best OS,  Windows 10 optimized is as good, some say better, some say worse.  All depends on the optimization you perform.

 

I can't agree with you more.

 

32 minutes ago, ElviaCaprice said:

2.  Windows 10 is free, yes free, you don't need to license it for it to operate.

 

Windows 10 is NOT free.  You will have to purchase it if you do not have an earlier version of Windows before.  Windows Server is ~$500.

 

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/store/b/windows?icid=CNavSoftwareWindows

 

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/cloud-platform/windows-server-pricing

 

32 minutes ago, ElviaCaprice said:

3.  Optimiztion  can also be free.  There is a very good thread on CA on how to perform this.

 

I can't agree with you more.

 

32 minutes ago, ElviaCaprice said:

4.  JRiver is cheap compared to Roon.  There is no difference in SQ when streaming bit perfect.  All depends on what you enjoy for features.  I find bit perfect streaming my preferable choice for SQ.  Roon is expensive.  You don't need Rock to run Roon.  

 

I don't know why this discussion is digressing to JRiver being cheap compared to Roon.  Anyway, in a world where we get what we pay for, in the end the buyer will have to make the choice.

 

Nobody said you need Rock to run Roon.

 

32 minutes ago, ElviaCaprice said:

5.  You don't need a renderer or NAA anymore for best SQ.

 

Yes, Roy thinks so and he uses a built-in "NAA" in $10,000 Dave Chord and surrounding components that cost more than a house (exaggerated).  NAA is meant to shape the sound you want because not all of us prefer the same sound signature so you cannot say "best SQ".

 

32 minutes ago, ElviaCaprice said:

A low power sCLK-EX server has been empirically proven to equal or better the SQ of a sCLK-EX render (Trifecta). 

 

No doubt, if one is not using DSP.  Then you are limited there.  That means, you have to get a Chord Dave that has built-in noise filter and 20x resolution than conventional sigma delta that the OP has (Vega) to achieve the same result.

 

32 minutes ago, ElviaCaprice said:

The misinformation keeps piling up. 

 

I can't agree with you more.

 

[ElviaCaprice]

I have loaded Windows 10 on many PC's without any upgrade or paid licensing.  It's free to download, it operates just fine without licensing.  The only feature you can't perform is personalization of the screen saver (which you will never use once you've optimized the OS) and you get a small message in the right hand corner warning you that this copy is not licensed (actually it says, "Activate Windows, Go to Settings to activate Windows") .  Otherwise it runs perfectly fine.  Been doing this for the past year and a half.

 

I use a Chord 2Qute, paid $900 for it, you don't need an expensive DAC to benefit from the sCLK-EX server.  Note:  Roy's testing between the sCLK EX Renderer (Trifecta) and the sCLK-EX server,  was with the same DAC, that's all that matters.  The DAC choice has nothing to do with it.

[TopQuark]

2 minutes ago, ElviaCaprice said:

I have loaded Windows 10 on many PC's without any upgrade.  It's free to download, it operates just fine without licensing.  The only feature you can't perform is personalization of the screen saver and you get a small message in the right hand corner warning you that this copy is not licensed.  Otherwise it runs perfectly fine.  Been doing this for the past year and a half.

 

Unless you are using a corporate or educational version that was already paid for.  Bootlegged versions will work fine too.  Tell that to Microsoft.  For standard retail Windows 10, you still can install it and it will run fine.  Missing personalization means the license was not entered so there will be a nag message at some point saying you have to purchase a license.

 

2 minutes ago, ElviaCaprice said:

I use a Chord 2Qute, paid $900 for it, you don't need an expensive DAC to benefit from the sCLK-EX server.

 

Any system will benefit from sCLK-EX next to the DAC or reclocker including Chord Dave.

 

[ElviaCaprice]

Go ahead, download Windows 10 to a computer without license.  If you haven't tried it, then you have no credibility to say it doesn't work.  It DOES, and I have done so on many PC's.

Regardless, Windows 10 is not expensive to license, definitely no $500.  And it's all you need.

 

https://superuser.com/questions/1024274/how-long-can-i-use-windows-10-without-activation

[TopQuark]

1 minute ago, ElviaCaprice said:

Go ahead, download Windows 10 to a computer without license.  If you haven't tried it, then you have no credibility to say it doesn't work.  It DOES, and I have done so on many PC's.

Regardless, Windows 10 is not expensive to license, definitely no $500.  And it's all you need.

 

I did. It will work after certain point. If none of your installs reported they didn't have any issue, I'm sure you are using the corporate, educational, or whatever version or a bootlegged version.

 

1 minute ago, ElviaCaprice said:

Regardless, Windows 10 is not expensive to license, definitely no $500.  And it's all you need.

 

Of course Windows 10 is not $500.  The $500 is the Windows Server.  I have provided the links above.  Then there is the question, do you really want to run your "server" in a general purpose desktop OS in Windows 10 instead of Windows Server?  I'm sure it will run fine.  It's really the users choice from there.

 

Now, if you are using the $130 Audiophile Optimizer, with Windows 10 you cannot completely remove the desktop environment unlike in a Windows Server.  It will work fine but audiophile purist might be more concerned.

[Johnseye]

On 10/20/2017 at 5:05 PM, ismewor said:

Yes, been there done that. I have the US distribution done the mod for me on Sotm. since they are really skilled. I also done it compare with different module like Pink Faun's and also compare all together with SGM 2015 as well. 

What i can conclude is even with the clock an True LPS is a must for this setup. I mean true ATX LPS. without that it is just like a ferrari feeding them with propane. 

 

@ismewor I got a quote for the SGM 2015.  It's 16,000 euros which is about $18,800 USD.  It only has its system clock modified.  No USB card, it uses the motherboard's USB.  They claim the power supply is special.  I don't think any power supply is better than the Hynes SR7 but based on what I know, a server sold at that price point is laughable and the reason why we're all building our own instead of finding something reasonable in the market.

 

Not sure if you responded, but what "true ATX LPS" are you referring to?

[Johnseye]

Here's the software they include with the SGM 2015.  At least we know that's about $800 in software.

 

1/ Lifetime subscription to Roon

2/ HQPlayer

3/ Windows 10 (Custom build, stripped of all unnecessary features)

4/ Process Lasso (for app priority and management of CPU cores)

[ismewor]

7 hours ago, Johnseye said:

Not sure if you responded, but what "true ATX LPS" are you referring to?

True ATX LPS is no switching power in the chains of the Server. Which include but not limit to the following 24pin, 8pin, usb card, Sata Power, Clock power, Molex. hope it help.

[ElviaCaprice]

34 minutes ago, ismewor said:

True ATX LPS is no switching power in the chains of the Server. Which include but not limit to the following 24pin, 8pin, usb card, Sata Power, Clock power, Molex. hope it help.

Your going to have to do better than that.  What power supply, supplies are you suggesting?  In particular the 24pin and 8pin.  How are you accounting for the switching power within the mobo itself, outside the 24 pin?   By the way, I don't disagree with this, but I have not seen a commercial or privately made mobo that accomplishes your so called "True ATX LPS" as you so define it as "no switching power in the chains of the server".  Please point us to some mobo's with this feature, reasonable priced, not some ridiculous boutique pricing?

[Johnseye]

1 hour ago, ismewor said:

True ATX LPS is no switching power in the chains of the Server. Which include but not limit to the following 24pin, 8pin, usb card, Sata Power, Clock power, Molex. hope it help.

 

I was asking for an actual product.  I know what an LPS is.  I don't know of one that can power an ATX server with a pin layout Elvia described.

 

28 minutes ago, ElviaCaprice said:

Your going to have to do better than that.  What power supply, supplies are you suggesting?  In particular the 24pin and 8pin.  How are you accounting for the switching power within the mobo itself, outside the 24 pin?   By the way, I don't disagree with this, but I have not seen a commercial or privately made mobo that accomplishes your so called "True ATX LPS" as you so define it as "no switching power in the chains of the server".  Please point us to some mobo's with this feature, reasonable priced, not some ridiculous boutique pricing?

 

Exactly.  

[ismewor]

1 hour ago, ElviaCaprice said:

Your going to have to do better than that.  What power supply, supplies are you suggesting?  In particular the 24pin and 8pin.  How are you accounting for the switching power within the mobo itself, outside the 24 pin?   By the way, I don't disagree with this, but I have not seen a commercial or privately made mobo that accomplishes your so called "True ATX LPS" as you so define it as "no switching power in the chains of the server".  Please point us to some mobo's with this feature, reasonable priced, not some ridiculous boutique pricing?

Absolutely I agree it can do better. but My ATX LPS idea is direct connect to the mobo 24 & 8 pins. Mobo internal regulator which might be able to replace. but not at my level and i don't want to take a risk just yet.

[ismewor]

1 hour ago, ElviaCaprice said:

Please point us to some mobo's with this feature, reasonable priced, not some ridiculous boutique pricing?

None that i seen so far. 

[ElviaCaprice]

3 hours ago, ismewor said:

None that i seen so far. 

Thus we live with what we can get today.  Low power mobo, forget the ATX mobos.  Go for the 6W embedded mobos or less with built in DC input.  Give it as clean of an LPS you have at 12V (Paul Hynes SR7).  Use as small a mobo as physically possible to achieve your needs, better impedance.  Use the tXUSBexp PCIe card for USB streaming, if using a mini ITX mobo, use two tXUSBexp cards one for steam and the other for OS/DATA.  Use the sCLK-EX for clock replacements, total of 4 points used.   3 on the mobo, 1 for both tXUSBexp cards.

Regardless of DAC, this more than likely will be cheaper and superior SQ than going the Ethernet route via sCLK-EX renderer (trifecta), plus it's KISS.  Server=>DAC (as Roy compared, as I built) (soon others to confirm)

No need any longer for any goofy software that can communicate with a renderer via Ethernet.  Your software choices and format abilities have grown tremendously with the KISS/sCLK-EX server. 

Good power and sCLK-EX solve the deficiencies of poor sound at the server and the need to use fixers/renderers to solve the problems further along in the stream. 

Ismewor, if you actually did this build, with the sCLK-EX,  you would be recommending it.   

[hurka]

tXUSBexp PCIe card leave ,and use usb regen +sclk-ex can be the same sq???

[ElviaCaprice]

41 minutes ago, hurka said:

tXUSBexp PCIe card leave ,and use usb regen +sclk-ex can be the same sq???

I am going to assume your speaking of tXUSBexp PCIe card modified with sCLK-EX.  It isn't nearly the same without.

According to Romaz, talking to the head engineer at SOtM, they consider the tXUSBexp PCIe card one of the top of the line products due to it's design with filtering.  They consider the tX-USB and sms-200 middle of the line products without the best filtering/design of the tXUSBexp.  That being said,  Roy did modify his ISO Regen with the sCLK-EX which he said helped it greatly, but it still didn't match the SQ effectiveness of the tX-USB Ultra and thus one would assume the even better tXUSBexp card.

 

BUT, if one we're to choose a mobo (like a PICO-ITX or NUC) to modify with sCLK-EX, without the tXUSBexp card, and having used one of the sCLK-EX points on the mobo for the mobo USB clock, one on system mobo and one on the LAN, I don't see why not adding a ISO Regen with 4th point of sCLK-EX  as a great alternative.   Would be more a question of taste (See Romaz's description).

[hurka]

I have some unused mobo,0.1ppm tcxos,ocxos,lt3042 regs,u cap psu`s at home.I want  trial first this stuff what does.

[Johnseye]

15 hours ago, ismewor said:

Absolutely I agree it can do better. but My ATX LPS idea is direct connect to the mobo 24 & 8 pins. Mobo internal regulator which might be able to replace. but not at my level and i don't want to take a risk just yet.

 

So it's just an idea, you don't know of any LPS that can power an ATX motherboard?  I know of a way to do it with either a PICO or HDPlex adapter, but I have been looking for a way to do it cleanly and directly from an LPS.

 

I wholeheartedly agree with you that it's the best solution, but to my knowledge it doesn't exist right now.

[LTG2010]

16 hours ago, ElviaCaprice said:

Regardless of DAC, this more than likely will be cheaper and superior SQ than going the Ethernet route via sCLK-EX renderer (trifecta), plus it's KISS.  Server=>DAC (as Roy compared, as I built) (soon others to confirm)

Hi Elvia and everybody, thank you all very much for your informative posts which helps us very much in making the right buying decisions.

The SMS200/Ultra does close to what you describe when you connect a usb drive directly to it. It plays bit perfect files from the USB storage and 'bypasses' the ethernet connection. Software such as jriver are used simply for library management. I know roy described the bridge mode as superior for the ethernet connection but not sure if he tried the 'direct route'

The OP might want to try this connection before embarking on any new pc build to get the flavour of whats on offer.

There are obviously limitations as to software choice and use of dsp / convolution processing and no video, but it would give an idea of server to dac playback.

 

[ismewor]

4 hours ago, Johnseye said:

 

So it's just an idea, you don't know of any LPS that can power an ATX motherboard?  I know of a way to do it with either a PICO or HDPlex adapter, but I have been looking for a way to do it cleanly and directly from an LPS.

 

I wholeheartedly agree with you that it's the best solution, but to my knowledge it doesn't exist right now.

Here is my story. 6 years ago i gave the same idea to Paul. The idea is True Linear ATX Power Supply with 9 rails output. And he replied with he can only done with 5 Rails and the cost is sky high 7k if i remember right. and this never happen. Than i share it with couple of my co-worker the idea they call me cray but might able to pull it off. (Of Course it never happen). 

Fast forward, Now is 2017 and i just place an order for the audio router from this new company www.thelinearsolution.com they seem to be very knowledgeable in what they are doing. And i gave the same idea to them and see what their reply are and i will keep you guys posted.