Kii Three - my impressions and pro reviews

[mitchco]

Here is the frequency response of both the Kii THREE and the D&D 8c overlaid as measured in my room. Both were tuned to produce a downward tilting response from 20 Hz to -10 dB at 20 kHz as per Harman's research.

 

 

This was achieved using the onboard controls only. The 8c is a bit smoother in the bottom end due to the additional PEQ's that the THREE does not have, but it in a double blind comparison, I doubt I could pick the two apart from a tonal perspective. As others have mentioned, the THREE sounds "dryer" than the 8c is about the only way I can describe any difference.

 

The 8c's treble required next to no adjustment to match Harman's research. However, the THREE out of the box required a -4 dB shelf at 3 kHz to match. So, out of the box, without any adjustments, the Kii's may sound overly bright.

 

Of course, both speakers fr can be made ruler flat using room eq like Audiolense or Acourate. Personally, I would just use partial correction from 500 Hz and below, as both have a wonderfully smooth response above 500 Hz. The cardioid design of both speakers really make a difference in the low end response where you don't get the crazy 25 dB of total up and down swing due to room modes, like in my room. So to get that smooth low end response is a real testament on how well both speakers deal with room modes with their cardioid design and on-board boundary controls.

 

Given it's cardioid design and  pretty smooth low end response, it will be interesting to see if any kind of FIR based room eq makes it's way into these products. The limiting factor is the on-board computers with the DSP chips that limit the number of FIR filter taps it takes to smooth out the low frequencies over time. Most hardware based DSP is limited to around 6000 taps per channel, whereas on a PC with Audiolense or Acourate one can use 65,536 or even 131,072 taps per channel for total low end control over time.

 

 

[Blade1001]

31 minutes ago, mitchco said:

Here is the frequency response of both the Kii THREE and the D&D 8c overlaid as measured in my room. Both were tuned to produce a downward tilting response from 20 Hz to -10 dB at 20 kHz as per Harman's research.

 

 

This was achieved using the onboard controls only. The 8c is a bit smoother in the bottom end due to the additional PEQ's that the THREE does not have, but it in a double blind comparison, I doubt I could pick the two apart from a tonal perspective. As others have mentioned, the THREE sounds "dryer" than the 8c is about the only way I can describe any difference.

 

 

Very interesting post - I’ve read both of your reviews with interest.

 

Given the very closely matching FR, how would you account the “dryer” presentation of the Kii’s as you put it? 

 

Is there anything in the other REW data, such as the waterfall plots (perhaps faster decay) etc, that might explain the difference? Do you have the REW measurement files available at all?

[mitchco]

Nothing in the REW files as I am talking about the direct sound. I can only attribute the difference to the overall electronic design and perhaps, "unique to the implementation used in the Kii THREE is a combined voltage/current control loop that goes beyond merely a better amp – it actively improves the distortion performance of the drive units which contributes significantly to the extreme resolution of the speaker."

 

Don't know exactly what that means 🙂, but one would need an anechoic chamber and associated mic, preamp, ADC that has low enough distortion to be able to measure properly to confirm.

 

[Bernstein]

50 minutes ago, mitchco said:

Nothing in the REW files as I am talking about the direct sound. I can only attribute the difference to the overall electronic design and perhaps, "unique to the implementation used in the Kii THREE is a combined voltage/current control loop that goes beyond merely a better amp – it actively improves the distortion performance of the drive units which contributes significantly to the extreme resolution of the speaker."

 

Don't know exactly what that means 🙂, but one would need an anechoic chamber and associated mic, preamp, ADC that has low enough distortion to be able to measure properly to confirm.

 

 

Dryer sound - faster decay?

What else could it be? I doubt it is the amp design, because the Hypex modules are not known for this...

[mitchco]

Dryer sound - less distortion is my best guess, given the electronics quote. That's what is fundamentally different compared to the 8c. "According to Putzeys, distortion of loudspeaker drivers can be optimized by varying the amplifier’s output resistance for different frequency ranges. This requires an amplifier that is specifically tuned to the parameters of the loudspeaker driver. An amplifier like this can never be a commercial good-for-all piece of equipment. They have to be tailor made, and this is what was done for the Kii Three." From Audioxpress's excellent review

 

[Blade1001]

10 hours ago, mitchco said:

Dryer sound - less distortion is my best guess, given the electronics quote. That's what is fundamentally different compared to the 8c. "According to Putzeys, distortion of loudspeaker drivers can be optimized by varying the amplifier’s output resistance for different frequency ranges. This requires an amplifier that is specifically tuned to the parameters of the loudspeaker driver. An amplifier like this can never be a commercial good-for-all piece of equipment. They have to be tailor made, and this is what was done for the Kii Three." From Audioxpress's excellent review

 

 

Sounds like a reasonable assumption to me.  It's just a shame that a 'dryer' sound has generally negative connotations. Perhaps its not a negative in this context?

 

Incidentally which did you prefer out of the two, speakers or was it literally the case that once calibrated there was just too little to differentiate them?

[mitchco]

Great question! I don't have an answer as I liked both speakers a great deal and could easily live with both. One part of me believes the magic Bruno has achieved as the most neutral speaker out there. i.e. no colour at all - truly neutral. The other part of me is trying to reconcile if I like that sound or not. I think I do. It reminds me of Rythmik subs and their Direct Servo technology. Very understated and dry sounding as their distortion measurements confirm on https://www.data-bass.com versus other subs. but that is what I have in my system today. What can I say 🙂

[Bernstein]

9 hours ago, mitchco said:

Great question! I don't have an answer as I liked both speakers a great deal and could easily live with both. One part of me believes the magic Bruno has achieved as the most neutral speaker out there. i.e. no colour at all - truly neutral. The other part of me is trying to reconcile if I like that sound or not. I think I do. It reminds me of Rythmik subs and their Direct Servo technology. Very understated and dry sounding as their distortion measurements confirm on https://www.data-bass.com versus other subs. but that is what I have in my system today. What can I say 🙂

Thanks a lot! 
And also thanks for your cool tracks you use for testing. If you have a list of them, it would be nice to share them. We have a joint KII Playlist curated by @firedog on Tidal, so we can add some songs to the collection

[firedog]

19 minutes ago, Bernstein said:

Thanks a lot! 
And also thanks for your cool tracks you use for testing. If you have a list of them, it would be nice to share them. We have a joint KII Playlist curated by @firedog on Tidal, so we can add some songs to the collection

Not curated by me. I can’t take credit.

[Bernstein]

2 minutes ago, firedog said:

Not curated by me. I can’t take credit.

ok! But you are the master of it  

 

[mitchco]

1 hour ago, Bernstein said:

Thanks a lot! 
And also thanks for your cool tracks you use for testing. If you have a list of them, it would be nice to share them. We have a joint KII Playlist curated by @firedog on Tidal, so we can add some songs to the collection

 

A partial list here: https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/reviews/nad-viso-hp50-with-roomfeel-headphone-review-r720/#subjective

 

[Bernstein]

10 hours ago, mitchco said:

 

A partial list here: https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/reviews/nad-viso-hp50-with-roomfeel-headphone-review-r720/#subjective

 

Thanks! Tin Pan Alley is one of my favorite!

[TheStupidOne]

I'm sitting here fiddling with my new subs to see if I can reduce the distortion in the bass/lower mid in my room. Seems like it works. It's now at or below the noise level in my room. I apologize for the mess in the picture, it will look better soon enough😁

 

 

 

 

How does it sound? Explosive is a good word.

[firedog]

49 minutes ago, TheStupidOne said:

I'm sitting here fiddling with my new subs to see if I can reduce the distortion in the bass/lower mid in my room. Seems like it works. It's now at or below the noise level in my room. I apologize for the mess in the picture, it will look better soon enough😁

 

 

 

 

How does it sound? Explosive is a good word.

What are the subs? How are they connected/integrated physically with the Kiis?

[Bernstein]

What is the length of the supplied network cable? 8m?

[TheStupidOne]

The subs are DIY with 2x 10" Scan-Speak 26W/4558T00 driven by one Hypex Psc 2.400d for each sub.

Minidsp 4x10hd is in charge of integration/EQ and volume control.

 

I bought these unseen and they were a little bit bigger than I expected, so it looked stupid with Kii on top like I planned.. 

[TheStupidOne]

3 minutes ago, Bernstein said:

What is the length of the supplied network cable? 8m?

6m

[Bernstein]

What is the length of the supplied network cable? 8m?

[firedog]

47 minutes ago, TheStupidOne said:

The subs are DIY with 2x 10" Scan-Speak 26W/4558T00 driven by one Hypex Psc 2.400d for each sub.

Minidsp 4x10hd is in charge of integration/EQ and volume control.

 

I bought these unseen and they were a little bit bigger than I expected, so it looked stupid with Kii on top like I planned.. 

So with the Mini DSP, how are you doing the physical connections to the Kiis and the Subs?

[TheStupidOne]

Analogue xlr to subs and AES/IBU digital to Kii:)

[fpalm69]

6 minutes ago, TheStupidOne said:

Analogue xlr to subs and AES/IBU digital to Kii:)

So, you are running the Kii full range and independent of the subs?

 

[firedog]

8 minutes ago, fpalm69 said:

So, you are running the Kii full range and independent of the subs?

 

I'm pretty sure he's using the DRC of the miniDSP to do room correction, which includes acting as a digital crossover to each of the 4 outputs. That would be the reason to have such a unit, AFAIK.

 

Anyway, if was me I'd put the crossover to the subs at about 80hz, which is where the cardoid dispersion of the Kiis breaks down. The DRC can probably help you out below 80hz . I can't imagine it would do much above 80hz with the Kiis in the setup. 

[baconbrain]

On 8/24/2019 at 8:58 AM, Bernstein said:

Thanks! Tin Pan Alley is one of my favorite!

 Guys, 

 

I am hiking in the beautiful Austrian Alps for the next week and will add Mitcho‘s tracks to our Tidal PL after my return.

[Bernstein]

Just now, baconbrain said:

 Guys, 

 

I am hiking in the beautiful Austrian Alps for the next week and will add Mitcho‘s tracks to our Tidal PL after my return.

 

Enjoy! Tin Pan Alley is already part of the playlist! Do you live in Austria as well?

[TheStupidOne]

19 hours ago, firedog said:

I'm pretty sure he's using the DRC of the miniDSP to do room correction, which includes acting as a digital crossover to each of the 4 outputs. That would be the reason to have such a unit, AFAIK.

 

Anyway, if was me I'd put the crossover to the subs at about 80hz, which is where the cardoid dispersion of the Kiis breaks down. The DRC can probably help you out below 80hz . I can't imagine it would do much above 80hz with the Kiis in the setup. 

I'm using the built-in DRC of Minidsp to get as smooth as possible downward tilt of -10 dB and to cross over the subs and Kiis at 200 (!) hz with 24 dB Linkwitz-Riley crossover. After that, I use Audiolense to get absolute timing in all frequencies correct and to further refine the rather rough response you get with very limited amounts of parametric EQ bands in Minidsp. The bass-elements in the subs are flat to over 1000 hz, so I wasn't concerned with their ability to play up to 200-300 hz, but crossovers at 300 I thought I could hear a somewhat boxy sound from the cabinets.

 

I'm not concerned with the lack of cardioide dispersion around the Schroeder-area of the room (180-ish hz). I can mute the subs, change crossover-frequencies and bypass the crossovers altogether in real-time while playing music via the Minidsp, so I can test the audibility of all kinds of different things. Those subs do no harm whatsoever at this settings, so I'm happy - for now.

 

Two reasons for the high crossover;

 

- I wanted to get rid of the huge dips in the 150-300 hz area due to boundary reflections (floor, front wall and sidewall).

 

- I wanted to increase headroom in the upper bass/lower midrange and thus reduce distortion in that area.

 

I expected more authority in the deeper bass region and more punch in the upper bass, but I didn't expect that the soundstage seems so much bigger and more realistic while making music sound smoother and more relaxing. 

My girlfriend doesn't like the ugliness of the subs though, so I don't know if I will/can keep them.