Kii Three - my impressions and pro reviews

[Blade1001]

1 hour ago, TheStupidOne said:

Right now I'm totally in love with the sound and can honestly say that this is the best I've ever heard the Kiis in my room, and probably anywhere. 

I think I'm done bombarding you guys with measurements , sorry for that! 🤓

 

To be honest, the first point is all that really matters.

 

On the second point, don’t ever apologise for that - in a hobby that is awash with audiophoolery, it’s incredibly refreshing to see a thoroughly objective approach.

[mitchco]

@TheStupidOne Excellent! I bet it does sound great! 😉

 

1 hour ago, TheStupidOne said:

It should be noted that my subs are not exactly subs and they are placed right next to the Kiis

 

Ah, I missed this, I get what you are doing now.

 

Are you using TTD in Audiolense?

 

If you are still up for an experiment, pick either the 80 Hz or 200 Hz XO and like in the graphs above, at the same SPL, move the mic from the LP a foot closer (or 2 or 3 ft whatever) towards the side you are measuring and take another measurement. You may want to take 2 to 4 measurements towards the speakers before you are like 3 feet in front of the Kii and sub.

 

If the shape of the distortion curve stays the same, but simply goes up in level, one can conclude you are measuring the speakers (and microphones) distortion. If the distortion changes with each mic position, then it is the room (sometimes combo standing waves and noise floor). Have you plotted the rooms noise floor? Also, have a quick look at what JohnM wrote and check out the link to the help file: https://www.avnirvana.com/threads/noise-floor-seems-too-high.1732/#post-15970

 

Congrats again. good job!

[TheStupidOne]

Thanks, guys! Good tip, mitchco. I'll try that out the next time I'm feeling measurable 😀

 

Haven't had the chance to do much listening yet, so I'm looking forward to the weekend. I noticed that I spend alot less time measuring after Audiolense because the simulation there is spot-on. Measure once and fiddle to death without controlling everything in REW is literally a life-saver for long-term interest in this dsp-adventure.

[aps]

On 9/6/2019 at 8:27 AM, mitchco said:

 

If that is the case, and you are happy with the SQ, I would simply leave well enough alone. If you wanted to experiment, I would lower lower the XO to the subs to 80 Hz or below. The suggestion from Kii is a good one. The subs should augment the Kii's and not replace their cardioid response I would find the -3 dB point at the LP with just the Kii's and then use that point as the XO point to the subs. That way you are maximizing the response of both Kii's and subs. Fyi, that' what I did with my rig (not Kii's but finding the -3 dB point on my mains) and XO to my subs are at 45 Hz. 

 

Mitchco 

 

Are you suggesting that the Kii 3 run full range with the subs augmenting these main speakers; I.e.,  no high pass on the Kii 3? And, if so, then would this recommendation hold true if the setup had a multichannel soundcard from the PC thus allowing AL or Acourate managed low / high pass to subs / Kii?

[mitchco]

Hi @aps no, I would always recommend a high pass or better yet, a linear phase digital XO between sub(s) and mains.  A linear phase XO sums properly both in the frequency and time domain. So yes, with a multi-channel soundcard or DAC, AL or Acourate digital XO would be used to manage low/high pass to subs and Kii's. Similar to what is done in this article: https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/ca-academy/ integrating-subwoofers-with-stereo-mains-using-audiolense-r712/

 

The trick is to find the best XO point and this is where the room comes into play. In my case linked above, my mains have good output to 40 Hz or a bit below (i.e. the -3 dB point in the room). Using tools like https://amcoustics.com/tools/amroc I have a large room mode, right at 40 Hz. So to offset that, I chose 45 Hz as being inbetween room modes for my XO point.

 

In the case of the Kii's and @TheStupidOne setup, is using additional woofers to supplement the Kii's. Turned out good! There are no hard and fast rules. However, if using a traditional "sub(s)" with the Kii's, I would take Kii's advice (and mine) of finding the -3 dB point in-room of the mains (whatever they are) and cross there.

[Blade1001]

A quick question for Kii Three owners. I will have two options when setting up my Kii's:

 

1. Run an AES cable carrying a stereo signal from the pre-amp (Amethyst) to one of the Kii Three's as master, and then run the Kii Connect Cat 6 cable from that to the second Kii Three.

 

2. Run an AES to each speaker, each carrying a single channel signal from the pre-amp.

 

Any thoughts on which might be the better option?

 

 

[TheStupidOne]

3. Spdif to Control? 

 

I'd pick that due to two things;

 

- I have experienced a few times that the Kiis desyncronize with each other, only solvable by connecting the Control.

 

- Smaller cable than AES/IBU

[Blade1001]

32 minutes ago, TheStupidOne said:

3. Spdif to Control? 

 

I'd pick that due to two things;

 

- I have experienced a few times that the Kiis desyncronize with each other, only solvable by connecting the Control.

 

- Smaller cable than AES/IBU

 

I have no interest in, or requirement for, the Kii Control. As mentioned, I am coming straight out of a Trinnov Amethyst into the speakers. Though if you have experienced sync issues - I guess the dual AES connections is the best option.

[TheStupidOne]

If you don't have the control I'd just use whatever makes the least amount of cable mess. In most cases dual AES, but if cables need to be bought, one AES is cheaper than two. 

 

[Blade1001]

6 minutes ago, TheStupidOne said:

If you don't have the control I'd just use whatever makes the least amount of cable mess. In most cases dual AES, but if cables need to be bought, one AES is cheaper than two. 

 

 

True - I wasn't aware of the possibility of the speakers losing sync over the Kii Connect (ethernet) cable, so that kind of makes the decision - thanks for pointing that possibility out. 

 

I have plenty of decent AES cable, so I just need to get some Neutrik plugs and make up a pair of cables in preparation.

[firedog]

3 hours ago, Blade1001 said:

A quick question for Kii Three owners. I will have two options when setting up my Kii's:

 

1. Run an AES cable carrying a stereo signal from the pre-amp (Amethyst) to one of the Kii Three's as master, and then run the Kii Connect Cat 6 cable from that to the second Kii Three.

 

2. Run an AES to each speaker, each carrying a single channel signal from the pre-amp.

 

Any thoughts on which might be the better option?

 

 

 I can only tell you I've done both and both work. Although the single AES for me was digital.
I have the possibililty of analog in my setup with 2 analog AES cables from a preamp. It works fine. 
Have you asked Kii or your dealer? They might know something the rest of us don't.. 

[Blade1001]

Sorry, another inane usage questions from me:

 

I assume some parts of the external aluminium panelling effectively acts as a heat sink for some of the internal electronics. With this in mind, does the aluminium base of the speakers get warm during use?

 

For those folks using the stock stands, how do the speakers mate with the stands, are there some feet or foam separating the metal top of the stand from the metal base of the speaker?

[TheStupidOne]

I use the stock stands which comes with a thin rubber seal around the edges. I use Sonic Design pads to decouple the speakers. Those are better because they are weight specific. I don't know if the bottom gets warm.

 

[firedog]

6 hours ago, Blade1001 said:

Sorry, another inane usage questions from me:

 

I assume some parts of the external aluminium panelling effectively acts as a heat sink for some of the internal electronics. With this in mind, does the aluminium base of the speakers get warm during use?

 

For those folks using the stock stands, how do the speakers mate with the stands, are there some feet or foam separating the metal top of the stand from the metal base of the speaker?

It doesn't seem to be an issue. The speakers do get warm - you can feel it on top - but they don't get actually hot. There aren't feet, but as above, you can add them in if you want.The speaker is designed to fit the top plate of the stands, which slides into the ridge around the bottom of the speaker formed by the speaker walls and the bottom plate. 

 

The speaker is heavy and so are the stands. If you fill the stands with sand or some other material, the whole thing is VERY heavy and quite inert. 

[Blade1001]

Thanks guys. The reason for the question is I’m making my own stands (I run a metal fabrication company so it’s easy to arrange) and I was thinking of having the top plate completely covered with neoprene foam where it touches the underside of the speaker - so in effect almost the entire metal underside of the speaker would be covered. 

 

However looking at the photo of the stock frame, the rubber seal is in strips, presumably to leave a small air gap, so I’d better do the same.

 

I may use some sorbothane strips as they should tack to the base of the speakers to help grip them, and also provide a little damping.

[Bernstein]

1 hour ago, Blade1001 said:

Thanks guys. The reason for the question is I’m making my own stands (I run a metal fabrication company so it’s easy to arrange) and I was thinking of having the top plate completely covered with neoprene foam where it touches the underside of the speaker - so in effect almost the entire metal underside of the speaker would be covered. 

 

However looking at the photo of the stock frame, the rubber seal is in strips, presumably to leave a small air gap, so I’d better do the same.

 

I may use some sorbothane strips as they should tack to the base of the speakers to help grip them, and also provide a little damping.

In the BXT solution there are two high density and quality plastic parts holding the Three and BXT together. This so called „BXT slide attachment“. There is no air between the Three and BXT. So I would expect no thermal issues. 

 

Please see here

 

[phosphorein]

4 hours ago, Bernstein said:

In the BXT solution there are two high density and quality plastic parts holding the Three and BXT together. This so called „BXT slide attachment“. There is no air between the Three and BXT. So I would expect no thermal issues. 

 

Please see here

 

I was told by Kii that the rubber strips were added in later versions of the stands to minimize abrasion of the speakers when mounting or removal them from the stands. I gathered there had been some complaints. Like @firedog I do not expect any thermal issues.

[fpalm69]

The bottom painted finish is susceptible to damage when placing the speaker on the metal stand in the original version.  I simply put some clear packing tape on the metal edge to fix that issue.  I also use Blu-tack or poster tack reusable adhesive between the stand and speaker bottom.  This makes it stick to the stand and less chance to tipple over along with good dampening.  Placing my foot on the stand base I can easily wiggle and un-stick the speaker from the stand when needed.

 

I also use a 90 degree IEC adapter so my custom power cables hang straight down instead of sticking out the back.

 

If you are making your own stands, design it so you can easily fill the void with sand.

 

Another mod to consider is a through bolt design for the spiked feet so you can adjust the height of each spike by turning a knob on top of the base plate.  In the original design you must tilt the stand over to adjust the height, set it down, hoping it is correct and if not repeat the process for each spike.  A through bolt would make this task much simpler and safer and you could leave the speakers on the stands while doing the adjustment.

[coot]

Deleted

[baconbrain]

Our beautifully sounding speakers are in the Stereophile Top 400+ Audio Products listing  (Oct 2019 issue).

 

Ranking: Class A - „Best attainable sound for a component of its kind, almost without practical considerations, with the least musical compromise“

 

Ain‘t it the truth! 😍

 

[George Hincapie]

5 hours ago, baconbrain said:

Our beautifully sounding speakers are in the Stereophile Top 400+ Audio Products listing  (Oct 2019 issue).

 

Ranking: Class A - „Best attainable sound for a component of its kind, almost without practical considerations, with the least musical compromise“

 

Ain‘t it the truth! 😍

 

 

I had them on home demo. Didn't like them and they went back, so they aren't the be all and end all.

[Emlin]

3 minutes ago, George Hincapie said:

 

I had them on home demo. Didn't like them and they went back, so they aren't the be all and end all.

 

 

Would you care to explain why you didn't like them, please?

[Blade1001]

1 hour ago, George Hincapie said:

 

I had them on home demo. Didn't like them and they went back, so they aren't the be all and end all.

 

Pray tell - what did you go for instead?

[Cazzesman]

2 hours ago, George Hincapie said:

 

I had them on home demo. Didn't like them and they went back, so they aren't the be all and end all.

 

That is one of the funniest posts I have read here.   The vibe of the thing is so truly ambiguous in its construct.   A wonderfully understated backhander. 😀

 

Whack! 😀

 

Regards Cazzesman

 

 

 

 

[Bernstein]

I have my KIIs now for a couple of days and am very impressed by them. I am still experimenting with the toe in etc. Any best practices are welcome. 
 

What struggle me is the height of the soundstage. The depth is superb, but the height could be higher - especially compared with the D&D (in my memory). Don’t get me wrong: the D&D drawed everything bigger, which was nice in the beginning but unnatural after some hours (a guitar is double or more times bigger than with the KIIs what was unnatural for me, also voices). Wall of sound so to speak, but less depth. 
 

What I experienced was, that it also highly depends on the recording: with Summertime (Fitzgerald & Armstrong) you have a natural height of the voices, also with some violin recordings. Other recordings puts the singer straight in the

middle between the tweeters like they are sitting. Is it the recording? Is it the placement? 
 

Best practices are welcome!