Kii Three - my impressions and pro reviews

[TheStupidOne]

If you're talking about changing cat cables to improve sound quality, then no. Fortunately for all audiophiles that's not possible, so one less thing to worry our minds with. And one less expensive thing to buy.

 

 

[Kal Rubinson]

1 hour ago, AMR/iFi audio said:

Let's leave audiophile PCs out of equation for a second. What I meant was that some regular PCs are better than others, but there's always something to do with them both software and hardware wise to make them better for audio. 

We can debate that but an "audiophile PC" is reasonably described as a PC and not a dedicated limited-OS computer as are proprietary players..  

[fas42]

8 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

What are the effects on SQ of a "hard drive, possibly fragmented"??

 

Either one accepts that electrical activity not directly connected with converting the digital signal to analogue, and any following buffering and other analogue circuitry, can possibly impact SQ - or one doesn't. If interference via some route is significant to the quality, then assume something like the hard drive thrashing to retrieve the file for each round of playback may be a factor - as compared to the data residing in optimal form on the surface.

 

The real point is that ABX is supposed to be testing, comparing various scenarios - if one in fact wants to check whether how the file is stored on the hard disk makes an audible difference, where A is defragmented, and B is a badly fragmented copy, deliberately so; then foobar ABX is useless as a tool.

[fas42]

3 hours ago, TheStupidOne said:

If you're talking about changing cat cables to improve sound quality, then no. Fortunately for all audiophiles that's not possible, so one less thing to worry our minds with. And one less expensive thing to buy.

 

 

 

It's never that simple. With devices that use electrical activity to reproduce sound there is always some level of exposure of the circuitry to unwanted waveforms, in the form of noise and interference - yes, it may seem incredibly unlikely, but if one wants isolation to be so good that the SQ never changes, no matter what electrical "nastiness" is around, then this requires very well thought out, applied engineering expertise.

 

There is a good analogy with the physical behaviour of cartridges on an LP - if one wants to completely eliminate every possible form of vibration affecting what the cartridge is registering while tracking the record, it turns out this is a very, very difficult thing to do; extreme forms of mechanical engineering have been devised to try and achieve this. And, unfortunately, it can be just as hard in the electrical world.

[fas42]

Some time ago I did an exercise in trying to achieve best playback sound from my HP laptop, now fully back to health, at least as far the display is concerned, . foobar was a non-starter, even used for straight playback; grey, dull, lifeless. Media Monkey got the nod in the end, and it was interesting to see the difference in how the two worked the machine: foobar was constantly twitching the hard drive, never allowed it to rest, and using up plenty of CPU cycles the whole time; MM sucked in the file in one solid gulp at the start, and then the drive went to sleep, program was almost invisible on the CPU monitor, the usage always sat at zero.

 

If one is not prepared to consider that non-obvious factors may be relevant, well ...

[Craig1512]

Umm can this thread go back to on topic please.

[TheStupidOne]

5 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

It's never that simple. With devices that use electrical activity to reproduce sound there is always some level of exposure of the circuitry to unwanted waveforms, in the form of noise and interference - yes, it may seem incredibly unlikely, but if one wants isolation to be so good that the SQ never changes, no matter what electrical "nastiness" is around, then this requires very well thought out, applied engineering expertise.

 

There is a good analogy with the physical behaviour of cartridges on an LP - if one wants to completely eliminate every possible form of vibration affecting what the cartridge is registering while tracking the record, it turns out this is a very, very difficult thing to do; extreme forms of mechanical engineering have been devised to try and achieve this. And, unfortunately, it can be just as hard in the electrical world.

It's a remarkable claim you make. Better have some remarkable evidence to support it, too. 

 

[TheStupidOne]

Earlier this year we compared Kii BXT with Kef Blade 1 + Solution 330 integrated amplifier. 

 

My take is that BXT is just so articulated and punchy in the bass that it clearly steps ahead up to the midrange. From there, the Kef Blade 1 takes charge and presents the sound in a more smooth and comfortable way, less piercing if you will.

This was with Kii set to flat, which is too bright to my ears.

 

The system price of that Kef setup is about twice the price of the Kii BXT.

 

In my own home (without BXT) I've found that the science is pretty much spot-on with their recommended flat downward tilted line of -10 dB from 20-20 000hz, measures in steady-state.

I could not get this kind of response with Kii Control settings alone, so I use a Minidsp 4x10hd to help with that.

 

The sound now is sweet, comfortable, energetic when it should be and highly detailed. Would be interesting to compare such settings to the Kef Blade 1 again.

[firedog]

40 minutes ago, TheStupidOne said:

In my own home (without BXT) I've found that the science is pretty much spot-on with their recommended flat downward tilted line of -10 dB from 20-20 000hz, measures in steady-state.

I could not get this kind of response with Kii Control settings alone, so I use a Minidsp 4x10hd to help with that.

How difficult was this to setup?

I'm thinking of doing something similar with software such as Audiolense installed in my server.

[TheStupidOne]

31 minutes ago, firedog said:

How difficult was this to setup?

I'm thinking of doing something similar with software such as Audiolense installed in my server.

With Minidsp you need to use REW measuring software to find out where and what you need to do manually to achieve such a tilt, so it's not as straightforward as using a dedicated software solution like Dirac or Audiolense 

 

With Audiolense it's either dead easy or frustratingly complicated depending on your need to fickle with settings.

Insanely good software that will produce as good a result as can possibly be made if used to its ability. Or so I've been told by the likes of mitchco.

 

I will start experimenting with Audiolense in a few weeks and directly compare the results with Dirac. The only reason I'm using minidsp is because I use Kii as TV speakers and I want correction on all sources that goes through the TV.

 

I am a measuring geek and will of course measure differences and can post them here, if desired

 

[phosphorein]

3 hours ago, firedog said:

How difficult was this to setup?

I'm thinking of doing something similar with software such as Audiolense installed in my server.

Also quite straightforward with Dirac Live implemented with MiniDSP DDRC22. 

[TheStupidOne]

7 hours ago, firedog said:

How difficult was this to setup?

I'm thinking of doing something similar with software such as Audiolense installed in my server.

I'd like to actually answer the question properly in regards to how I set up the minidsp 4x10hd with Kii to get a tilted curve approx -10 dB.

 

Routing; PC -> TV -> optical out  -> Minidsp  -> Digital AES/IBU out -> AES/IBU input directly to Kii Three.

 

Here's the thing; since Minidsp 4x10hd only provides 5 bands of PEQ per channel on input and 5 on output in the higher fidelity 96khz plugin, I needed to also use the shelf filters on the Kii Control in addition to all bands of PEQs to achieve both a good response in the bass and the desired tilt.

 

If you only want a tilt with PEQs using Minidsp, you'll need 3-4 bands of the lowest Q-factor possible (0,5) in order to get a constant tilt from 20-20 000. 

Since I needed to take care of some room modes in the bass and some excessive energy in the 500-1000 hz are, I needed the two extra shelf-filters from Kii Control.

 

First I took a high-shelf filter at 4000 hz in the Kii and set it to -4 dB and a low shelf at 300 at +3 dB.

Then I removed the modes and reduced energy in that midrange-area with the necessary amount of PEQs in the Minidsp. I used the remaining available PEQs to introduce shelf-filters with low Q in the necessary areas to get as smooth a tilt as possible.

 

I went to all this trouble because I want the same sound regardless if I'm watching TV, using YouTube app on my Oled TV or playing from my computer.

 

If the computer was my only concern, I'd just use the Dirac software to fix all that above within a few minutes!

 

Concerning sound quality, I can't really tell if the Minidsp is transparent or not when I disconnect it (after removing eq of course), so I don't lose sleep over that. I've also tested Dirac on top of my settings with Minidsp and Dirac barely touches a thing. Some phase adjustment between the speakers and a little bit of level matching through the midrange is all, but I can barely hear it when switching on and off repeatedly.

 

I will produce measurements to support my post when I get home from vacation.

[Bernstein]

I red about certain tweaks with Ethernet Cable...wondering KII is only providing CAT 5 cable with their gear...

Did someone conduct a comparison between stock and e.g. Audioquest cables?

If you ask the KII guys they don’t find cable tweaking necessary (which is good!)

[Mazza]

2 minutes ago, Bernstein said:

I red about certain tweaks with Ethernet Cable...wondering KII is only providing CAT 5 cable with their gear...

Did someone conduct a comparison between stock and e.g. Audioquest cables?

 

I had already replaced my cat5 with Cat6 cable bought from Amazon and noticed a very very slight difference. Cheap enough, got exact length for my installation and looked great, so no loss!....later loaned a pair of audioquest vodka and could not tell any difference whatsoever from the cat 6. Sent them back, saved myself a small fortune.

[Bernstein]

1 minute ago, Mazza said:

 

I had already replaced my cat5 with Cat6 cable bought from Amazon and noticed a very very slight difference. Cheap enough, got exact length for my installation and looked great, so no loss!....later loaned a pair of audioquest vodka and could not tell any difference whatsoever from the cat 6. Sent them back, saved myself a small fortune.

Vodka is (more was) also part of my consideration. You saved me also a little fortune! 

[Mazza]

@Bernstein 😁👍

[fas42]

2 hours ago, Bernstein said:

 

If you ask the KII guys they don’t find cable tweaking necessary (which is good!)

 

 

Ummm, it's not good ... if they don't believe that cables improve, or alter, the sound for their gear, but customers are finding otherwise ... what motivation have they to improve the robustness of the engineering, so that in fact it is indeed the case that tweaking is unnecessary ... .

[Emlin]

2 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

Ummm, it's not good ... if they don't believe that cables improve, or alter, the sound for their gear, but customers are finding otherwise ... what motivation have they to improve the robustness of the engineering, so that in fact it is indeed the case that tweaking is unnecessary ... .

Or tweaking is already unnecessary. There has not been a system built that some will claim couldn't be improved by snake oil.

 

Until they meet blind ABX testing and the supposed differences disappear. Then they claim that they were a bit tired or that their 'golden ears' only work when no-one is testing them.

[fas42]

7 minutes ago, Emlin said:

Or tweaking is already unnecessary. There has not been a system built that some will claim couldn't be improved by snake oil.

 

Until they meet blind ABX testing and the supposed differences disappear. Then they claim that they were a bit tired or that their 'golden ears' only work when no-one is testing them.

 

Most blind ABX testing is never organised to a standard that's adequate - there are holes in the procedure that one can drive a truck through ... just doing some test is far short of a test that truly assesses what's going on.

 

Personally, how I address integrity issues is to work backwards - if I had a Kii I would deliberately make life hard for it; feed it very nasty mains power, place sources of high level RF next to them and the cables it's using;  and combine multiple "badnesses", all at once - nothing absurd, but things that could happen in real life. And see what happens ...

 

IOW, find the limits of its engineering robustness - then I have a handle on where it can be improved, .

[Emlin]

1 minute ago, fas42 said:

 

Most blind ABX testing is never organised to a standard that's adequate - there are holes in the procedure that one can drive a truck through ... just doing some test is far short of a test that truly assesses what's going on.

 

Personally, how I address integrity issues is to work backwards - if I had a Kii I would deliberately make life hard for it; feed it very nasty mains power, place sources of high level RF next to them and the cables it's using;  and combine multiple "badnesses", all at once - nothing absurd, but things that could happen in real life. And see what happens ...

 

IOW, find the limits of its engineering robustness - then I have a handle on where it can be improved, .

 

I was of course referring to properly conducted blind ABX testing.

 

You may well wish to play with extreme situations when testing, but that should also be done with properly conducted blind ABX testing.

 

Otherwise your results will be meaningless, and you will have no handle of any sort.

[fas42]

48 minutes ago, Emlin said:

 

You may well wish to play with extreme situations when testing, but that should also be done with properly conducted blind ABX testing.

 

Otherwise your results will be meaningless, and you will have no handle of any sort.

 

If one chooses the 'right' recordings, then the impact on the sound is as trivially easy to hear as playing with the treble control on an ordinary car radio ... . One may wish to conduct "a proper ABX" to see if one can detect what fiddling with the HF output is doing on a 'mediocre' playback device - but I think for most people this would be somewhat redundant, .

 

The point is to organise the situation with the setup so that changes are obvious - immediate feedback is what one is after, to minimise wasting of time chasing irrelevancies.

[firedog]

5 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

Ummm, it's not good ... if they don't believe that cables improve, or alter, the sound for their gear, but customers are finding otherwise ... what motivation have they to improve the robustness of the engineering, so that in fact it is indeed the case that tweaking is unnecessary ... .

Or they've done proper testing and have seen that it doesn't help, whereas customers are probably doing sighted testing - which is fine for them, but means nothing as a general rule about the speakers and their performance. Kii shouldn't make engineering decisions based on anectdotal and non repeateable customer reports. And individual user is free to do whatever he/she thinks is best. 

[fas42]

39 minutes ago, firedog said:

Kii shouldn't make engineering decisions based on anectdotal and non repeateable customer reports. And individual user is free to do whatever he/she thinks is best. 

 

It also means that a 'competitor' can examine what they left undone, and create a new product based on the core of Kii, with "added goodness" ... sorta like how the car industry evolved ...

[ragwo]

12 hours ago, Bernstein said:

I red about certain tweaks with Ethernet Cable...wondering KII is only providing CAT 5 cable with their gear...

Did someone conduct a comparison between stock and e.g. Audioquest cables?

If you ask the KII guys they don’t find cable tweaking necessary (which is good!)

Mine were delivered with CAT 6 cables. I now use the internal CAT 6 wiring in the living room to avoid cable mess. Can't hear any difference. 

[baconbrain]

52 minutes ago, ragwo said:

Mine were delivered with CAT 6 cables. I now use the internal CAT 6 wiring in the living room to avoid cable mess. Can't hear any difference. 

 

My experience also reflects yours. If there is a difference, it is certainly minimal.

 

Just my 2 cents worth but perhaps it would make sense to first experiment with shielded versus non-shielded cable (utp, ftp, s/ftp ...) in the low to moderate price range before investing larger sums? I have been surprised on numerous occasions what a difference this sometimes makes...