Suggestion: ban all cable debates

[elcorso]

28 minutes ago, wwaldmanfan said:

Part of the reason to come here is to share experiences, and help each other cut through a lot of the BS that pervades this industry.

My parents used to think that if they read something in the newspaper, it must be true. Some people new to this hobby may be led to believe that a $500 cable is going to perform better than a $50 cable. 10x better? 2x better? I think I hear a difference after burning it in for 150 hours?

Only way to know without spending the cash is to try to draw a consensus from others who express opinions based on their own experiences. That info costs nothing, a good thing.

 

I'm old enough not to believe in newspaper or everything published in the web.

 

You don't need to spend cash to try an audio cable. You can get it from a friend or a seller to try it for some time.

 

The "non believers" are based mostly in what they call science.  I wonder if they tried some of this cables, because all of them could be impossible (or very expensive).  I also wonder if they have all the best testing gear for this purpose (I mean testing equipment, not testing with their listening equipment).

 

Anyway, I own some audio cables I love, expensive but not the most expensive. Their cost are diluted during the 15 years or so I own them.

 

Roch

[wgscott]

21 minutes ago, Jud said:

there could be a problem of false negatives.

 

There could be a problem with interpretation of negative results.  A negative result in that kind of double-blind test proves absolutely nothing, whereas a single positive statistically-valid and repeatable positive result would convince pretty much everyone that the cable skeptics are wrong.

 

A negative result just brings you back to the null hypothesis.

 

Publius

[elcorso]

15 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

We need to recognize it is not necessarily a way to *know*.  Our eyes and ears may indeed be fooling us, and we simply need to be OK with that.

 

On the other hand, I have not seen  research that proves the efficacy of double blind testing in the case of audio cables, and I have seen research (and have provided a few citations here on the forums) that makes me think there could be a problem of false negatives.  So unless there's research proving efficacy that someone can point out to me, we should be OK with skepticism on that point.

 

As long as everyone's OK with due skepticism and doesn't treat his own view as conclusively proven, I think we're OK here.  Pace.

 

Double blind testing has been very problematic even in the studies of new drugs in medicine.  Even with medicines approved by the FDA.  Is after 4 to 5 years of use by a large amount of people that they get the correct answer!

 

Roch

[wgscott]

2 minutes ago, elcorso said:

The "non believers" are based mostly in what they call science.  I wonder if they tried some of this cables, because all of them could be impossible (or very expensive).  I also wonder if they have all the best testing gear for this purpose (I mean testing equipment, not testing with their listening equipment).

 

No one argues about whether expensive speakers can sound better.  

 

What's the difference?

 

Basic physics doesn't contradict the assertion that two sets of speakers can sound audibly different.

 

Basic physics does contradict the assertion that two sets of cables with the same resistance, capacitance, conducting properties and that measure the same can sound different.

 

So only by special pleading (undiscovered or unmeasurable properties that nonetheless are audible to 60 year old men) can the assertion that the cables sound different be considered.  When the advocates of special pleading arguments then add to it by saying that these differences cannot be detected by a double-blind test, I tend to file these claims into the same bin that holds chemtrails and Kennedy assassination conspiracy theories.

 

[GUTB]

"Objectvists"....let's just be brutally, ultra real; that's just a polite term to describe a poor person (typically a have-nothing student living in a tiny prison cell apartment) who wants to participate in the hobby but wants to reject the upper end while satisfying their own egos. They don't WANT to listen to cables, because they aren't concerned about the fact of the matter, just satisfying a mindset. 

 

I can't afford Magicos, Luxman monoblocks and an MSB Diamond wired up with a Nordost loom. But I don't scoff at them, calling them overpriced jewelry for rich audiophools. One day, one day...

[wgscott]

4 minutes ago, GUTB said:

"Objectvists"....let's just be brutally, ultra real; that's just a polite term to describe a poor person (typically a have-nothing student living in a tiny prison cell apartment) who wants to participate in the hobby but wants to reject the upper end while satisfying their own egos. They don't WANT to listen to cables, because they aren't concerned about the fact of the matter, just satisfying a mindset. 

 

I can't afford Magicos, Luxman monoblocks and an MSB Diamond wired up with a Nordost loom. But I don't scoff at them, calling them overpriced jewelry for rich audiophools. One day, one day...

 

So really it is just a question of snobbery.  

 

That explains the pre-occupation with displaying cables on little elevator stands.

 

For only $580, I can get this for my bicycle's rear derailleur:

Only a bitter impoverished student wouldn't run right out and buy a pair.

[GUTB]

Just now, wgscott said:

 

So really it is just a question of snobbery.  

 

That explains the pre-occupation with displaying cables on little elevator stands.

 

Cable elevation isn't about presentation, but about vibration control.

 

Why won't you just listen to some cables? It won't cost you anything but some time and maybe a small amount for return shipping. Lots of guys with experience here can help you narrow down your search for more cost-effective boutique options while avoiding the junk.

[wgscott]

Just now, GUTB said:

Why won't you just listen to some cables? 

 

I prefer to listen to music (and ride my bike with the $15 Ultegra derailleur pulleys).

[wgscott]

1 minute ago, GUTB said:

 

Cable elevation isn't about presentation, but about vibration control.

 

So when you shake or vibrate a USB cable, can you hear it change the music?  Can you measure the change in frequency?

[GUTB]

21 minutes ago, wgscott said:

 

 

For only $580, I can get this for my bicycle's rear derailleur:

Only a bitter impoverished student wouldn't run right out and buy a pair.

 

Are you saying you don't WANT these?

 

[Samuel T Cogley]

23 minutes ago, GUTB said:

"Objectvists"....let's just be brutally, ultra real; that's just a polite term to describe a poor person (typically a have-nothing student living in a tiny prison cell apartment) who wants to participate in the hobby but wants to reject the upper end while satisfying their own egos. They don't WANT to listen to cables, because they aren't concerned about the fact of the matter, just satisfying a mindset. 

 

I can't afford Magicos, Luxman monoblocks and an MSB Diamond wired up with a Nordost loom. But I don't scoff at them, calling them overpriced jewelry for rich audiophools. One day, one day...

 

Ah, the old trusty, "objectivists are envious peasants" trope.  Cable believers always go there eventually.

 

[mansr]

1 minute ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

 

Ah, the old trusty, "objectivists are envious peasants" trope.  Cable believers always go there eventually.

 

 

Perhaps the believers are just envious because they don't understand science.

[Samuel T Cogley]

4 minutes ago, GUTB said:

 

Are you saying you don't WANT these?

 

 

Not everyone lusts after bobbles marketed as "the best money can buy".  I'll grant you they're shiny and come in a pretty box.

[Jud]

50 minutes ago, wgscott said:

 

There could be a problem with interpretation of negative results.  A negative result in that kind of double-blind test proves absolutely nothing, whereas a single positive statistically-valid and repeatable positive result would convince pretty much everyone that the cable skeptics are wrong.

 

A negative result just brings you back to the null hypothesis.

 

Publius

 

What if the test always tells you you're not pregnant?  (OK, not you personally....)  Is the problem then with interpretation of the negative results, or with the validity of the test?

[wgscott]

15 minutes ago, GUTB said:

 

Are you saying you don't WANT these?

 

 

No, I am reasonably content with the $15 stock ones that came with my low-brow, impoverished lumpenproletariat Di2 ultegra group.

[Jud]

1 minute ago, wgscott said:

 

No, I am reasonably content with the $15 stock ones that came with my low-brow, impoverished lumpenproletariat Di2 ultegra group.

 

A "Lumpenproletariat" bike sounds like a great brand to me, but where's there a tube long enough for the name?

[wgscott]

1 minute ago, Jud said:

 

What if the test always tells you you're not pregnant?  (OK, not you personally....)  Is the problem then with interpretation of the negative results, or with the validity of the test?

 

The thing about pregnancy is that it is objectively real, and can be measured using a simple ELISA pregnancy test.  We don't have to rely on a double-blind test, because everyone is in agreement that (a) pregnancy as a condition exists, and (b) it can be measured.

 

A double-blind test has nothing to measure except a contradiction of the null hypothesis (that cables with no measurable differences will sound identical).

 

Your jedi lawyer tricks no good here.

[wgscott]

Just now, Jud said:

 

A "Lumpenproletariat" bike sounds like a great brand to me, but where's there a tube long enough for the name?

 

This comes close:  http://surlybikes.com

[Jud]

3 minutes ago, wgscott said:

 

The thing about pregnancy is that it is objectively real, and can be measured using a simple ELISA pregnancy test.  We don't have to rely on a double-blind test, because everyone is in agreement that (a) pregnancy as a condition exists, and (b) it can be measured.

 

A double-blind test has nothing to measure except a contradiction of the null hypothesis (that cables with no measurable differences will sound identical).

 

Your jedi lawyer tricks no good here.

 

If we've already decided cable differences aren't objectively real (contra measurement fanatic audio engineer Bruno Putzeys) then "Test hardly needed is," as a short green wrinkly Jedi lawyer might say.

[mansr]

6 minutes ago, wgscott said:

The thing about pregnancy is that it is objectively real, and can be measured using a simple ELISA pregnancy test.  We don't have to rely on a double-blind test, because everyone is in agreement that (a) pregnancy as a condition exists, and (b) it can be measured.

 

Moreover, 9 months later you can validate any earlier test result with certainty.

[Jud]

8 minutes ago, mansr said:

 

Moreover, 9 months later you can validate any earlier test result with certainty.

 

Or invalidate.  So far I've found quite a dearth of research into false negative rates for testing in the audio realm, though there has been interesting research on this for certain types of testing with which DBT in audio shares protocols.

[elcorso]

18 minutes ago, wgscott said:

 

The thing about pregnancy is that it is objectively real, and can be measured using a simple ELISA pregnancy test.  We don't have to rely on a double-blind test, because everyone is in agreement that (a) pregnancy as a condition exists, and (b) it can be measured.

 

A double-blind test has nothing to measure except a contradiction of the null hypothesis (that cables with no measurable differences will sound identical).

 

Your jedi lawyer tricks no good here.

 

"A 64-year-old woman has given birth to twins at a hospital in Spain becoming one of the world’s oldest new mothers."

 

She didn't get the ELISA pregnancy test because doctors said it was impossible she was pregnant...!

 

A science faillure?  Posible imposibles?  Could different audio cables with the "same measurements" (but some very small differences) sound different?  Who knows!

 

Maybe you could discover this when you "discover" conspiracy theories

 

Roch 

[Jud]

11 minutes ago, elcorso said:

Maybe you could discover this when you "discover" conspiracy theories

 

Roch 

 

Kind of pertinent, as I'm at a legal meeting/seminar in DC listening to members of the current administration.

[wgscott]

16 minutes ago, elcorso said:

 

"A 64-year-old woman has given birth to twins at a hospital in Spain becoming one of the world’s oldest new mothers."

 

She didn't get the ELISA pregnancy test because doctors said it was impossible she was pregnant...!

 

A science faillure?  

 

This is a really good example of the hazards of expectation bias, to which everyone is susceptible.  That is why they should have done the objective test.

[wgscott]

4 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

Kind of pertinent, as I'm at a legal meeting/seminar in DC listening to members of the current administration.

 

I hope they provide you with a proper decontamination suite.